Is J. Alfred Prufrock insecure?

There is certainly evidence that he's anxious about growing old. (HINT: It's somewhere in the line that goes "I grow old, I grow old"

2) If so, are you an English major?

If so, you need to work a little harder on the dang thing instead of asking us to tell you the answer. I'm not your TA, I'm just a guy who went to college a couple of years ago and majored in English. I'm happy to help, but I'm not going to give the whole thing away. Give me something more specific here. Just telling you whether or not the guy is "insecure" isn't really going to help you understand the poem that much better anyway.

(But if you can argue that you're right, you win, which is really the point anyway)

i think you should maybe take an engineering course or something.

-- a student (blahblahbla...), April 26th, 2005.

Dude, it's "in THE room" not "in MY room." And why would all these chicks be talking about Michaelangelo while he bones them?

1997: "Boom boom boom, let's go back to my room."

I think that this discussion of the poem is too naturalistic or narrative-based. Much more is going on in its language. Perhaps I am stating the obvious, or occluding the necessary.

The pinefox is correct, yes.

Well, I don't think there's much of a "discussion of the poem" going on here, but I think I do know what you mean. But I am a staunch believer that one has to firmly grasp the narrative elements before one can examine what else the language does. For example, I think it's essential to realize that the line "Do I dare eat a peach?" is about growing old and worrying about teeth (or false teeth? I forget if that would be accurate for the time) falling out when one eats a peach. But the peach seems to have symbolism beyond that.

Wow, I have never thought about any potential "symbolism" in the peach; I certainly hope none was intended. Even going so far as noting the similarity between a peach and certain parts of the body reduces the power of that line.

(kidding)

-- Casuistry (chri...), April 26th, 2005.

Maybe "symbolism" is going too far (I don't mean peach=vagina), but eating a peach does at least seem to embody youthful pleasures, lust, etc.

I don't know, I still find the line works best if means he's so waif he's worried about being brought down by a simple piece of fruit. But maybe there is a great "youth"/"peach" connection I'm not thinking of. (I mean, it's not hard to invent why there might be one, but was the connection actually there, or did Eliot make us consider it?)

but also the peach skin maybe refers back to

and i have known the arms already, known them all--
arms that are braceleted and white and bare
(but in the lamplight downed with light brown hair!)

I've always assumed he's about Eliot's age was when he wrote the poem: 22.

I'm sure there's a whole dissertation to be written about peaches in literature/popular culture cf Prufrock, Jimmy Corrigan, James and the Giant Peach, The Stranglers, um, the Presidents of the United States of America. Etc.

i mean, whoever got indigestion after eating a peach? and how can you 'lose a tooth' if you're wearing dentures?

Right, well I think it's either losing one tooth, or having dentures and having them come out (which is why fixodent was invented). I'm not sure which.

I've always assumed he's about Eliot's age was when he wrote the poem: 22.

-- Casuistry (chri...), April 27th, 2005.

Well, I think it's a very bad idea to assume that the speaker of a poem, especially one by someone like Eliot, is the author or the same age (or race, or gender, or in the same time period) as the author.

I actually imagined him maybe in his 30s or 40s -- old enough to be worrying about old age but not feeling the effects yet.

I have never seen sexuality in Prufrock's peach. Also, I think he is older than 22. Say 37.

But come on:
http://www.christinespies.com/images/peach.jpg

-- Liz :x (lizd4ply...), April 28th, 2005.

Maybe he's a bit alienated, but he's mainly paralyzed by indecision. Though I do think he has a certain amount of contempt for the chatter about Michaelangelo, but part of that also comes out of fear of coming across well at these social gatherings.

Here's THE answer:

Prufrock is such a power lover that his lay ends up "like a patient etherized upon a table" (notice the similie: like). He likes taking his women to "one night cheap hotels", because of all the sawdust. His manhood is so unbelievable that he often hears the question "what is it?", but he prefers to get down to fucking, "let us make our visit".

Prufrock is also quite prolific, and he's not averse to group sex and pissing action: "In the room the women come and go". In fact, the women consider him an artist, they are "Talking of Michelangelo".

I'll let you discuss this angle with your TA. I'm sure you'll manage to convince him/ her. Come back if you want more.

HAHAHA I only just got this.

It was then that either he or one of his women bit off his penis. I am now inclined to believe that he emasculated himself, but that he subsequently regrets his action: "Then how should I begin | To spit out all the butt-ends of my days and ways?" After healing, he is of course left "With a bald spot in the middle of my hair".

We totally get this pome!

The poem begins with a quote from Dante, seemingly illustrative of Prufrock's address to the reader (which forms the text of Eliot's poem). In Dante, the statement is made by a damned soul, who answers a question only because he believes that his listener can never return to Earth to give away the answer, which he wishes to keep secret. This seemingly places Prufrock in the position of one who speaks out from the gulf of some abyss, addressing arcane matters not to be shared with those on Earth. In so doing, he implies something about the reader as well as about the speaker. Should it perhaps be recalled, however, that the damned soul in Dante, quoted at the beginning of Prufrock, was sent to hell for the sin of false, deceitful, and treacherous counselling?

The indecisive Prufrock seems to be trying to decide whether to continue climbing the stair, or to turn back. There might also be an element of Dante here, as well. The suggestion that he has "known them all before" (the evenings, afternoons, and mornings of his life) should perhaps be taken literally. He is not living on Earth, but is reliving, in some sense, elements of his life elsewhere, though "elsewhere" needn't be taken literally as indicative of physical place. Shall he continue this phantom existence, with its odd corruptions (e.g., the arm which seems at first fair and feminine but which reveals a hirsute defect when viewed under the lamp), or shall he address the "overwhelming question" and thereby "disturb the universe"? (The phrase "disturb the universe" should certainly be taken literally.) Yet throughout, he remains coy, skirting this question (much less its answer!). He does not return from the dead to advise the living (q.v. the story of Dives and Lazarus), but instead employs obscure metaphors suggestive (falsely?) of concealed meanings and mysteries. But perhaps he has decided that nobody would believe him, "though he rose from the dead".

Mark Adkins
msadkins04@yahoo.com

Mark Adkins
msadkins04@yahoo.com

The ontology is what the poem is about, and thus is obviously what makes it.

Mark Adkins
msadkins04@yahoo.com

Mark Adkins
msadkins04@yahoo.com

That is much more present in the poem than a few tossed off allusions to Dante.

I'm not sure this is so "obvious." Prufrock was written in 1917. According to various articles I'm finding on the net, body hair removal didn't become popular among women until the 1920s. So it's hard to understand why the narrator would be disgusted by a little arm hair (not to mention that it could have a subtle sexual undertone) -- also, the word "downed" sounds pleasant enough to me.

I too always connected the peach with the downy-arms. I have personal associations with the peach thing, too: I have this massive fruit-phobia that really takes shames with peaches. So Archel, I love that you put "risk" on the peach-association list, because that's 90% of what I get out of them -- they're so rarely ideally ripe, and when they're not, they're quite disgusting, and so biting into one is a huge gamble of pleasant possibilities vs. grainy or mushy or god-forbid wormy ... So it's always made sense to me on some intuitive level that it'd be a peach. Peaches are a big leap.

I mean, alternately, it could be an Allman Brothers reference.

Mark Adkins
msadkins04@yahoo.com

In a recent interview, noted contemporary poet David Berman claims that TS Eliot's seminal modernist poem "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock" is the "Stairway to Heaven" of twentieth century. In fact, the ontological intention behind the poem could be nothing further from this assessment. While Berman's rockist assertion aligns Prufrock with the more or less progressive rock band Led Zeppelin, Eliot instead meant his poem to stand as orphic warning about the evils of progressive rock. Eliot offers Prufrock as a prophetic allegory of the aging prog rock movement whose increasingly banal self-regard betrays the moral bankruptcy of their chief appeal: arrogant virtuosity. In this article I demostrate that Eliot's elliptical lines forecast the minimalism of punk even as Prufrock himself is autopsized as a somnambulent dinosaur prog rock corpse.

In a recent interview, noted contemporary poet David Berman claims that TS Eliot's seminal modernist poem "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock" is the "Stairway to Heaven" of twentieth century American poetry. In fact, the ontological intention behind the poem could be nothing further from this assessment. While Berman's rockist assertion aligns Prufrock with the more or less progressive rock band Led Zeppelin, Eliot instead meant his poem to stand as orphic warning about the evils of progressive rock. Eliot offers Prufrock as a prophetic allegory of the aging prog rock movement whose increasingly banal self-regard betrays the moral bankruptcy of their chief appeal: arrogant virtuosity. In this article I demostrate that Eliot's elliptical lines forecast the minimalism of punk even as Prufrock himself is autopsized as a somnambulent dinosaur prog rock corpse.

I think, like others above, that this is only one (probably 'wrong') interpretation. To me the exclamation mark is revelation, not dismay. And yes, nabisco, I totally associate the peach with the fuzz of arm hair too. It's not so much a defect as something that is always there but not always revealed, it's the exciting and tactile reality/corporality as opposed to the mere surface.

Hurting, do you have your "show LoChris, If it is obvious to me, then it is obvious to everyone that your educational credentials are woefully inadequate for the moderation of this board. I suggest you resign immediately and turn over the keys to one of the recently arrived eggheads.

Hurting, do you have your "show Username" option checked?

Anyway, just joshing, Chris.
Just kidding, Josh.

"The poem seems pretty obsessed with 'mundane existance', and this
seems to be where many of the narrator's anxieties lie: There are ...oyster shells...standing water, soot-filled chimneys, make up, toast and tea, stairs to walk down...coats, neckties, and tie pins..."

What an amusing misrepresentation. It's as if a robot, asked to comment on the meaning of a play, reeled off a list of the props.

Casuistry: "[These things are] much more present in the poem than a few tossed off allusions to Dante."

Those things are the outer trappings, the background, like props in a play. The quote from Dante occupies a prominent place at the start of the poem precisely because it foreshadows the poem's content.

The rest of your comments are equally inane and I shall ignore them.

Hm, I'm beginning to understand why this interpretation appeals to you!

Anyway, mostly I'm pleased that you took the time to elide my quote in a seemingly random but time-consuming fashion.

http://www.videovista.net/articles/starman.jpg

I was lead here by the Random Homework Googler Memorial thread.

Beth's discussion of the dead things on the beach seems more interesting than the entire preceding discussion of Prufrock. She was one of the good ones.