question about suggest bans - requesting official policy

Some of us want to know once and for all the answers to the following questions:

1. how long does it take for individual suggest bans to expire?

2. If someone is banned as a result of receiving 51+ suggest bans, then returns, and accumulates another 51+, are they banned temporarily or permanently, and if temporarily, for how long?

it would be nice for it to make it's way into a FAQ at some point, but a non-faq-ified answer nowish or soonish would be much appreciated.

Indeed. There's no hurry to write a full FAQ, as many of the things in it would be kinda obvious, but this whole SB thing has caused so much confusion there should at least be a clear and concise policy on it.

One of the goals of this thread and ideally, the resultant answers is to reduce the likelihood of future clusterfuck threads in which the same questions get asked over and over again. This thread is not intended as yet another place to debate the suggest ban system.

Respectfully submitted.

ffs i know ppl like to post to borad-lawyering and meta threads but if this stuff was written out we wouldn't have to answer the question "when do sb's expire?" for the 900th time and endless facepalming arguments with mods would really be a nonstarter because that's what written policies are for.

― call all destroyer, Tuesday, September 22, 2009 1:04 PM (25 seconds ago)

I think there'd be more of a hurry on this if people didn't feel 100% sure that no matter how clearly the policy was stated, nor how concise the terms framing it were, somebody, not to tuom any names or anything, would still have several questions which in the end could not be answered to his satisfaction, which would be frustrating for the people who'd put time into stating the policy

<3

u write it for the 99% of us who are not dense

i'd be satisfied knowing the answers to the two questions i initially posted - even if there is a certain amount of "at mods' discretion" involved.

"why don't you write a shitty indie policy about it"

it's in the liner notes you freeloading brit

j0hn have u ever written a faq set to music? if not, hop to it

let's have lj write the policy--how many penis metaphors do you think he can work in

guys, this is a serious request you're fucking up with bullshit answers!

well for #2, as far as I remember, it's a permaban

welcome to ilx heaven

lj & I will collaborate on the song, between the two of us we will make people cry over a song about penises whose chorus is an electro delight running roughly as follows

ESSSSSS
BEEEEEE
ESSSSSS
BEEEEEE

to the last syllable of recorded time

xpost sorry sarahel if you sb me for this I deserve it

the outro will feature the sound of a single gunshot and a low moan of 'oh how life's relish stains my cummerbund'

http://www.thenextwave.biz/tnw/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/Dyson.jpg

vacuum drone in the background

xp haha

"Ladies and Gentlemen, it's The Testicle Goats"

http://www.beatlemania.ca/toursworld/Shea_files/Shea13.jpg

guys, this is a serious request you're fucking up with bullshit answers!

― my other display name is a controversial mod edit (sarahel), Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:13 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i'm done

use a wiki maker and write one? don't see why you have to wait for the mods to do it

uh, because I don't know the answers?

just make them up!

which is pretty much how its done now

guys, this is a serious request you're fucking up with bullshit answers!

― my other display name is a controversial mod edit (sarahel), Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:13 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark

^ new board descrip for mod request forum plz

Sarahel here's your answer to #2:

The short version is "a 102 means the same thing as a 51, ie the poster returns at the mods' discretion, usually in 30 days".

― sturdy, ultra-light, under-the-pants moneybelt (HI DERE), Wednesday, September 23, 2009 12:01 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

before we jump to conclusions i dont think that the 30 day thing is deadset policy, mod discretion is.

heres the post i made that dan was summarizing:

i think that the mods have been pretty clear on all this actually, weve pretty much said from the beginning that sb reversals are going to be up to moderator discretion, which means that there isnt going to be a hard and fast rule. cankles racked up 49 of his sbs in the past three months, and the posts that got him sbs wouldn't really be very surprising. if someone else gets 102ed but has a bunch of bans for saying that blur sucked or whatever, or it took them far longer to hit the mark, it just isn't the same situation. if yall want a set in stone procedure, we might as well just code it into the system, but i (for one) think that is a pretty bad idea.

speaking for me, not mods in general btw.

also, to quell the raging against secretive conspiratorial mods, i think the reason no one has stepped up to give a concrete answer to the various specifics people are asking for is because a couple of the site wides are busy with other things at the moment, so it wouldnt exactly be accurate or fair to nail this stuff down without all of them having their say.

― A DOG, A BARREL... RIDICULOUS! (jjjusten), Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:35 AM (49 minutes ago)

yeah basically when in doubt: mod discretion prevails. so. sorry guys.

I thought the idea of the SB system was it was supposed to be "democratic". But if the mods still decide when/if the banned person can get back, it's hardly democratic. As long as it's up to mod discretion, were going to keep having these arguments, because someone will always disagree with the mods' views. So essentially the SB system hasn't made any improvement over the old system; if anything, it's made things worse, because with the old system people at least knew why someone got banned.

As for someone getting 102ed because he thinks Blur sucks, I thought the mods were gonna stop people getting banned for unpopular opinions before the ban actually happens?

Anyway, what about Sarahel's other question: when do invidual SBs expire?

you sure do have a lot of questions, tuomas!!!

Just to make it clear: I have nothing against mod discretion, but I thought the old system where all bans were up to mod discretion, and where people only got banned for specific reasons explicitly stated in the ILX guidelines worked better than this weird hybrid we have know, where no one really knows what's gonna happen next.

http://phoenix.fanster.com/suns/files/2009/03/groundhogday.gif

ignore tuomas, current system is fine - keeps everybody on their toes.

I thought the mods were gonna stop people getting banned for unpopular opinions before the ban actually happens?

where the hell did you get this impression?

When people complained that folks shouldn't get SBed just because they say they don't like Radiohead or something, someone said that mods will remove those kind of SBs. If they don't, at least they should.

someone?

I think it was Stet, I might misremember tough.

though

http://i.testfreaks.co.uk/images/products/600x400/253/102-dalmatians.366589.jpg

it was someone in the crowd at the clusterfuck harvest festival.

Clusterfuck Harvest is one of those cereal bars that idiots eat instead of breakfast, right?

it's full of empty calories

i think the idea was that if it was completely obvious someone got an individual suggest ban because of a relatively innocuous opinion, a mod might choose to remove that 1 suggest ban. this doesn't mean that each and every 52 suggest bans gets poured over to determine if a system-generated ban/52 should stay in effect.

so tuomas would you be happier if we removed the whole mod discretion and instead went with 102 getting people a permaban?

Clusterfuck Harvest: half-baked, not toasted!

like most of tuomas' arguments on these threads

Er, how can it be "completely obvious someone got an individual suggest ban because of a relatively innocuous opinion" if someone doesn't review the SBs people get?

For all the bleating about people being 51'd, have we ever taken an in-depth survey as to how many people self-ban when confronted with the 27th "Best Note in Faust Arp" poll of the day? Let's think of the real victims here, people.

so tuomas would you be happier if we removed the whole mod discretion and instead went with 102 getting people a permaban?

No, I would be happy to get rid of this whole SB system and go back to the old one where people only got banned for reasons explicitly stated in ILX guidelines. Cankles probably would've been banned in that system too, I'm not arguing for that.

But if the SB thing is here to stay, my suggestion would be that:

1) When someone gets 51 SBs, a mod reviews them and checks if they're actually given for proper reason (and not for disliking a band or whatever), before the person actually gets banned. If some of the SBs turn out to be jokes or pointless ones, they're removed.

2) SB bans should have a definite length, but each successive banning should be longer than the previous one. So it could be something like 30 - 60 - 90 - 120 - 150 days, etc.

checks if they're actually given for proper reason (and not for disliking a band or whatever), before the person actually gets banned. If some of the SBs turn out to be jokes or pointless ones, they're removed.

the problem with this is that there is no way of knowing if the SB'd post is the actual post is the straw that broke the camel's back. so this is not going to happen.

thx for the tips tuomdog!

afaik the only SBs that have been deleted are those that were done by obvious sockpuppets or users with little or no posts

not because someone thinks belle & sebastian are better than the smiths

in all seriousness, tuomas, it makes no sense to argue that you prefer full mod discretion in a non SB system, but think that in the current system mod discretion is terrible and unfair

the problem with this is that there is no way of knowing if the SB'd post is the actual post is the straw that broke the camel's back. so this is not going to happen.

If people go on clicking SB on random, non-banworthy posts, then it's their own damn fault, I don't think mods should assume the post they SBed was merely a straw that broke the camel's back.

When can we fucken SB Tuomas already so we don't have to hear him jäbber on about SBs for the ten billionth time

or wait you are arguing for a long set of guidelines that determine what appropriate community behavior is or isn't, which is basically impossible, and that mods are charged with the interpretation of how those rules apply in an infinite number of possible situations

finland must not have an equivalent of the perfect guiding example of the impartial american supreme court to fall back on in situations like this

in all seriousness, tuomas, it makes no sense to argue that you prefer full mod discretion in a non SB system, but think that in the current system mod discretion is terrible and unfair

Read what I posted upthread: I'm not saying mod discretion is unfair, I trust the mods. What I'm saying is, the justification for the SB system was that it's more democratic/fair and makes things easier for the mods, but if everything's is still decided by mod discretion, it's not really any more democratic/fair, and I'm not sure if the mods' workload has lessened either (maybe it has?). So I think the new system is no improvement over the old one, it's just made things worse, because bans have become more random and now everyone lives under the shadow of a Suggest Ban.

well then argue against suggest ban* instead of making a bunch of posts about how to make suggest ban work just to prove that in your view it doesn't

*actually please for the sake of my sanity dont

everyone lives under the shadow of a Suggest Ban.

lmao

By now it's become pretty clear to me SB thing will not be removed, so I've grudginly accepted that. Now I'm merely arguing how it could be made more fair, if fairness is the point of it.

you laugh hoos but it is exactly the same as living under the threat of nuclear annihilation

now the title of 'threads' is even more scary

everyone skates on finn ice.

Walking on Finn ice,
I'm paying the price
For throwing the dice in the air.
Why must we learn it the hard way
And play the game of life with your heart?

I gave you my knife,
You SB'd my life
Like a gush of wind in my hair.
Why do we forget whats been said
And play the game of life with our hearts?

I may cry some day,
But the tears will dry whichever way.
And when our hearts return to ashes,
Itll be just a story,
Itll be just a story.

Ai-ai-ai-ai-ai-ai-ai-ai...

Ooh-ahooh...

I knew a girl who tried to walk across the lake,
course it was winter when all this was ice.
Thats a hell of a thing to do, you know.
They say the lake is as big as the ocean.
I wonder if she knew about temp ban guidelines?

Ai-ai-ai-ai-ai-ai-ai-ai...

everyone lives under the shadow of a Suggest Ban.

IMP board description.

so would I be interpreting it correctly, if I said:

The current policy regarding a 2nd 51 suggest bannage, is that the poster would be banned for approximately 30 days and may be allowed to return at mod discretion, with a significant factor to include whether the poster had engaged in and would likely continue to engage in dickish behavior.

u got it

thank you. Hopefully the expiration period of individual suggest bans could be clarified as well.

please don't interpret this thread as faq, though.

if it's faq, it'll go in faq.

speaking of which, i went looking for the faq yesterday and couldn't find it

hah.

i found it once. i forget where.

xp tza: i just wanted to know what the current policy/mod practice is. i'm not demanding it be codified somewhere official, though at some point it would be useful.

Yeah, at least it would nice to know the expiration time of SBs.

the problem, sarah, is that once something is said, people will come back to it time and again when they disagree with a decision, regardless of whether you or i understand that it is not necessarily official/engraved in stone.

tuomas, expiration is not something i know off-hand. will have to wait til someone who coded that is online again. sorry.

not trying to dupe anyone.

I totally understand. I think a number of people (me included) were under the impression that if someone got 51-ed a second time they were gone for good, end of story, but now it seems like that is something that is up to mod discretion.

I was under that impression too, I think it was explicitly stated by some mod earlier that if someone gets 51ed twice, they're gone for good.

anyway, it is reasurring to learn that there is some leeway in this.

tuomas, in finland do you get another vote on an issue every time you repeat your opinion on it?

i'm pretty sure that the mods know exactly what your issues with sb are- they just disagree with you.

i'm not gonna be one of the people that hits 'sb' on you just because you keep stubbornly reposting the same points as if the mods/coders were idiots that don't get it. i just genuinely don't want to see you banned again for exactly the same reason as last time.

You're just keeping him around for the display names.

similarly to dm: Tuomas, I like you and wish you to keep posting, and asked for you to be allowed back after a period of reflection when you got SBed the first time, but so help me if you keep restating and restating endless "but what if?" tiny fractional quibbles with the SB system, I will SB YOU WITH THE FINN-HATING FRENZY OF NRQ HIMSELF

Again since the only people who have been SB'd are some of the more annoying jerks on this board, I fail to see what the issue is. Not surprised that Tuomas is still banging the drum though. I'll probably SB him for that (again.)

That's a weird attitude when you consider the nature of a message board, especially one constructed like ilx.

That I don't care? Or that I'm probably going to SB Tuomas?

ilx has never been democratic or fair, and it shouldn't be

It's not even really that, it's the insistence that it should be "just what Iwant" for a given value of 'I'.

tryin not to sound dickish about tuomas, just to re-iterate i don't want the guy banned for something so avoidable. i guess i'm trying to post the ILX equivalent of a drunken 'leave it, mate, it's not worth it'

l-r Tuomas, Darraghmac
http://ihasahotdog.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/loldogs-cute-puppy-pictures-holdmeback.jpg

i wish i had that cat's toned physique tbh

Are we really doing this again? There is only one ILX "policy" it is "don't be a dick", everything else is a consequence of dealing with people who fail to understand this.

TBF it's more like "only be a dick up to the 'this-dickish-and-no-further' boundary".

which boundary?

It's got a big 51 stamped on it.

the stamp isn't embossed enough for my liking, i would really appreciate a mod giving me a ring to listen to my views on the matter.

Although the FAQ would also need some caveats about some modes of dickishness being more acceptable than others.

^ serious point, i think ^

dear god

xxxpost

By George, I think you're onto something. MODS-4-U Hotline. We could use a premium rate phone line and raise the hosting costs while we're on.

pizza threads vs. SB threads

Pizza because it is awesome.

Are we really doing this again?

I'm fairly resigned to the fact we're going to do a slightly different variant of this every time someone gets SB'ed.

"If you want to complain about SBs, press 1. If you don't understand the concept of tipping, press 2. If you think England is horrific, press 3. If you think Britney Spears sister look intersting, press 4. To speak to a drunk Mod, please hold."

"If you want to change your password, press 5. If you have no self control and want to be banned from posting, press 6. If you want to tell girls they r v. pretty btw, press 7"

For hen fap press 8

to leave a message for one of The Fallen--Chakipants, JW, Gabbneb, or Cankles, or Dom--press 9

"If you want to change the title of your 27th Beatles poll of the day, even tho you can't, because it's a poll, press STFU"

To repeat this entire thread, press 5-1

dan the above comment is just yet more proof that you're an awful mod and a terrible person etc etc

it's obvious I should be stoned

Not necessarily stoned, but beautiful.

HI DERE is beautiful, no matter what they say
suggest bans can't bring him down

(because he's a mod, and suggest bans don't affect mods)

they affect me deep in my heart

do they actually not affect mods, or is it just made irrelevant by mods' abilities to unban themselves?

hats off to n/a--explicating my posts. kudos, sir!

I just realized that this is because of cankles getting SB'd, isn't it?

mods can not be sbed. this should be relatively self-explanatory if you think about it tho. xxposts

does it still keep track of their sb total?

alex: yes. it's brought up in the 'missing u' thread

Yes, the system keeps track of mod sb totals.

in that case i am sbing all of you just to register my protest

kick ass

was going to put an exclamation point at the end of that but i couldnt muster up the enthusiasm

It's an imperative.

i want mods to post as mods more often. we need these threads.

oh see i didnt mean it as an imperative, i meant it as a cry of enthusiasm, maybe with a bit of horn-throwing in there for good measure

^sassy dude who knows he can't get SB'd^

i want mods to post as mods more often. we need these threads.

what is it you need about them? (serious question) They're just the same tired old thing over and over.

these threads are the ILX equivalent of squeezing blackheads.

it wasn't a serious comment, btw

x-post - But squeezing blackheads is awesome and satisfying!

plz do it in private (aka chatz) -- nobody needs a mod to stand around and admire blackhead squeezing technique

xp yes, yes it is. but it also leaves you feeling a little dirty, and someone has to clean the mirror afterwards. and i think that someone is mods.

plz do it in private (aka chatz) -- nobody needs a mod to stand around and admire blackhead squeezing technique

this thread sort of disproves that statement...?

hmmm

new official mod policy: "use clearasil, for fuck's sake. look at the state of that glass. honestly."

the problem, sarah, is that once something is said, people will come back to it time and again when they disagree with a decision, regardless of whether you or i understand that it is not necessarily official/engraved in stone.

― tehresa, Wednesday, September 23, 2009 12:43 AM (9 hours ago)

tbh that's not a reason for not writing something out.

i was just reposting it because of the direction this thread took since the last time i posted.

1. how long does it take for individual suggest bans to expire?

I'm on holiday right now so can't actually check the code, but do remember Keith talking about putting it in, and half-remember he was talking about six months. Mods do look at all the SBs that have led to a banning though, so any weird anomalies are going to get picked up, automatic expiry or no.

Whether or not it's in, I don't think this suits itself to a hard and fast figure. eg: If someone only posts once a month but gets SBd every time they do, then surely those SBs should last longer than those for a daily poster who racked up 48 six months ago and then hasn't got a single one since. These sort of unknowns are also part of the problem giving a clear answer to:

2. If someone is banned as a result of receiving 51+ suggest bans, then returns, and accumulates another 51+, are they banned temporarily or permanently, and if temporarily, for how long?

Getting 51 SBs gets you banned permanently and automatically. Everything and anything else beyond that is subject to mod review.

In general, people get back in after a month, but if they keep getting SB'd, that's going to stop happening for them. So far we're dealing with this case-by-case. It's pretty hard to write a hard-and-fast policy beyond this, because this system is pretty new, and has resulted in bans for so few posters that I think virtually anything we write is going to pretty quickly hit a case that doesn't fit.

We're still feeling our way, and I realise that can be frustratingly ambiguous, but I genuinely think setting hard-and-fast limits when it's still so new would be likely to force us into doing things that are more unfair than keeping our options on this open.

(btw: My net access is patchy as I'm travelling, so I might not be able to answer any Qs for a couple of days)

Tuomas, I like you and wish you to keep posting, and asked for you to be allowed back after a period of reflection when you got SBed the first time, but so help me if you keep restating and restating endless "but what if?" tiny fractional quibbles with the SB system, I will SB YOU WITH THE FINN-HATING FRENZY OF NRQ HIMSELF

ahhh

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41GP9R1750L._SL500_AA240_.jpg

fuk u

Geir: banned? What did I miss?

This is only going to end with the most active posters being banned eventually, isn't it? (posting a lot -> more risk of offending people -> destruction of 1. enjoyment 2. community)

http://phoenix.fanster.com/suns/files/2009/03/groundhogday.gif

nowadays 51s almost always seem to = 30 day vacations...I think ilm can survive 30 days without geir

For as long as it keeps feeling wrong when someone gets banned because of some arbitrary rule someone pulled out of a hat, yes, indeed. (xpost)

it kind of adds variety to the community. we get to see what ILX would be like without [x poster] temporarily. I'm sure most ILXors will rack up 51 eventually.

I'm pretty sure geir got 51 from this: I think the 2010's will be dominated musically by...

not from some arbitrary rule someone pulled out of a hat

Dammit, what we should've done for Halloween was held an ILX Seance thread where we got in touch with the spirits of the departed.

ugh geir typed the word "boner"

ffs surely you should be close to 51 now geir

― "i find your antics mirthful and infectious" (King Boy Pato), Friday, 23 October 2009 01:13 (1 week ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

KBP needs to make more use of his terrifying psychic powers imo

My kingdom for an edit button:

"... arbitrary rule someone pulled out of a TRUCKER hat ..."

I'm sure most ILXors will rack up 51 eventually.

Not if old SBs are discarded (they are, aren't they?). Only those with the vigour to rack them up faster than they lose them are going to reach Banhalla.

still think you should only get to suggest 51 bans at a time. when your first one 'times out' then you get another, etc.

BOOMING THREAD

2. If someone is banned as a result of receiving 51+ suggest bans, then returns, and accumulates another 51+, are they banned temporarily or permanently, and if temporarily, for how long?

― my other display name is a controversial mod edit (sarahel), Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:36 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark

can't remember who this covers

oh hey

the original post was about LJ, but it covers/covered at this point in time: gabbneb, cankles, and kate

oh and Whiney too, i guess

like comin across a nice bottle you forgot about on the top shelf, this one

add taking the first sip and realizing your teenager has been pissing in it to keep the level from going down and i agree with you

all ahead of u man