"Mammomax? They're keeping the belligerent elephant man?" [A DECIMATION thread]

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David Hine on his DECIMATION minis. The thread title came from a N3wsarama user. Don't talk about DECIMATION - talk about Mammomax.

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 23:51 (nineteen years ago)

Mammomax:

http://metagame.com/uploads/Vs/2005/avengers/1mammomax.jpg

Let's not talk about the guy what wrote the above scene, either. Let's just talk about Mammomax and his digestive acids.

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 23:53 (nineteen years ago)

Mammomax.

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 23:54 (nineteen years ago)

I'm sorry Maggott. I have a new love now.

― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 23:58 (nineteen years ago)

His mutant power is digestive acids?

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 3 November 2005 07:48 (nineteen years ago)

somewhere Maggot is wiping a way a single perfectly formed tear

Mammomax sounds like his mutant power should be giant bosoms

― Mark C (Markco), Thursday, 3 November 2005 09:18 (nineteen years ago)

Now that's my kind of superhero.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 3 November 2005 13:20 (nineteen years ago)

Mammomax sounds like his mutant power should be giant bosoms

Don't they all have that power?

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 3 November 2005 13:40 (nineteen years ago)

Hold on, why is Chuck Austen meant to be rubbish again?

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 3 November 2005 13:44 (nineteen years ago)

Tom, stop that.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 3 November 2005 14:17 (nineteen years ago)

If you start coming around to Sodom & Gommorah, I'm going to pout.

Tho, you know, if his plots were abetted by Peter Milligan's dialogue...

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 3 November 2005 14:46 (nineteen years ago)

Or, you know, anyone that worked in funny books between the 30s and 60s.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 3 November 2005 14:50 (nineteen years ago)

DO NOT FORGET MAMMOMAX

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 4 November 2005 19:20 (nineteen years ago)

XAMOMMAM TEGROF TON OD

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Friday, 4 November 2005 19:44 (nineteen years ago)

one month passes...

OK, let's talk about DECIMATION! (Mammomax.)

Anyone (MADDY?) reading / gonna read these books, specifically the minis associated w/ thee event? I'm in line to get the David Hine minis (The 198 & Son of M), mostly because of the happy-good-time vibes District X gave me. And I might give Generation M a spin (because of nostalgic Paul Jenkins feelgood vibes). How about it?

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 15 December 2005 18:57 (nineteen years ago)

OMG, I should have kept reading Austen's run.

― Dan (Mammomax/Maggott Team-Up!) Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 16 December 2005 00:44 (nineteen years ago)

Son of M seems pretty anti-happy-good fun-time-- from rainy rooftop screaming about "My dead son!" to suicidal plunges, I feel like they're trying to dramatize an event that really didn't evoke that much drama in the first place. The best examples of Decimation fallout come from closely following one character (the opening Pietro stuff is great) but X-Men does not (maybe can not?) work at that micro level for long. It's not Hines' fault; he's doing a good job with what he's got.

Worst part: no Mammomax yet.

― Madolan, Friday, 16 December 2005 18:52 (nineteen years ago)

Mammomax was in Milligan's X-Men!

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Saturday, 17 December 2005 03:50 (nineteen years ago)

True! I was speaking of the Decimation minis, not the ongoing titles.

― Madolan, Saturday, 17 December 2005 04:26 (nineteen years ago)

one month passes...

HOTT NEWS! The post-Decimanational writer / artist X-teams have been announced! I'd link to the official announcement, but I'm feeling lazy!

Uncanny X-Men: Ed Brubaker & Billy Tan
X-Men: Mike Carey & Chris Bachalo

The three or four of us that give a squirt: DISCUS

Also - Son of M is turning out to be pretty interesting! I wish I cd say the same for Generation M.

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 16:25 (nineteen years ago)

I'm kind of excited about both of these.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 16:59 (nineteen years ago)

Motherfucker! I'm really pissed off about Milligan getting the ax.

Mike Carey? WTF? This is ridiculous.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 19:06 (nineteen years ago)

So it seems like the post-Whedon direction for the core X-titles will be bland respectability, huh?

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 19:12 (nineteen years ago)

I think Carey is underrated. :(

The line-up (Cable, Cannonball, Iceman, Mystique, Rogue and Sabertoof) seems interesting too.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 19:16 (nineteen years ago)

That line-up would be interesting, but only if Milligan was writing it and playing the characters for laughs. Otherwise, it's a fucking nightmare!

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 19:19 (nineteen years ago)

And illustrated by Chris Bachalo, no less!

So basically:

Whedon/Cassady = X-Men for people who really wish Morrison was still writing it
Carey/Bachalo = X-Men for 90s X-fans
Brubaker/Tan = X-Men for people who always wished that the series could get the feel of a bland but competent DC title

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 19:21 (nineteen years ago)

Don't get me wrong, I don't really have a problem with Brubaker. Deadly Genesis has been pretty okay, but it's pretty conservative stuff and I'd rather have a crazy visionary on the series (Morrison, Claremont in his prime) or a weirdo who doesn't take it entirely seriously (Milligan, Lobdell on his good days.)

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 19:23 (nineteen years ago)

I think Whedon/Cassaday = X-Men for people who like Joss Whedon.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 19:28 (nineteen years ago)

Well, that too.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 19:29 (nineteen years ago)

And not for people who like crazy visionaries.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 19:33 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, it carries on with largely the same cast and he's bringing back Cassandra, but it's totally New X-Men Lite.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 19:35 (nineteen years ago)

I just hope the next storyline moves faster, as opposed to "WTF, they're STILL fighting that stupid robot?"

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 19:40 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, definitely. He only has six issues to wrap up a lot of plot!

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 19:42 (nineteen years ago)

I thought there were going to be 12?

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 19:44 (nineteen years ago)

He's on for a full year, but the catch is, Astonishing X-Men is bi-monthly. So it's actually six issues.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 19:49 (nineteen years ago)

[ultimate x-post!]

I don't agree w/ your assessments / predictions @ all, Matt (SHOCKA), tho I share a bit of your trepidation (tho that's due to the art choices), and I am kinda irked that PM is getting the boot, esp. since he seems to have finally gotten settled (AND DOOP'S BACK). I prefer my Milligan unfettered, though, and having to helm one of the main X-titles crimped his style (or caused his style to manifest itself in odd clunky ways). But getting Claremont and his 95 captions off the damn books is a step in the right direction, and I'm def. looking forward to Carey's run - his Ultimate FF/X-stuff has been superswell, and I enjoyed the Spellbinders mini he wrote last year.

That said, the best overall X-book (published on a regular schedule) might still be Ultimate X-Men, if Robert Kirkman's first issue is any indication.

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 19:50 (nineteen years ago)

Yes, I enjoyed Kirkman's first issue too, in spite of the clunky Ultimate version of Lilandra. I don't quite understand the point of introducing these gimmicky radically altered Ultimate versions of old characters when just making up new ones would suffice, but whatever.

Weird thing about the new issue of Milligan X-Men - Doop was a celebrity along with the rest of X-Statix, right? Why are Lorna and Alex totally unaware of his existence?

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 19:59 (nineteen years ago)

Because the story dictated it so? It's META, you see??

― c(''c) (Leee), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 20:04 (nineteen years ago)

I guess the No-Prize justification is: Doop was a reality TV star - that's a totally different thing from being an actual celebrity. It's not like too many folks that don't watch American Idol know who the hell Bo Bice is.

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 20:08 (nineteen years ago)

It's really too bad that they went with Carey when they could have totally went for a Milligan/Bachalo reunion.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 20:13 (nineteen years ago)

A Milligan / Bachalo reunion that maybe 20 people give a rat's ass about! One way to inspire apathy in the X-dorks = reunite the team that brought you Vertigo's SHADE THE CHANGING MAN.

Note: I am one of those 20.

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 20:22 (nineteen years ago)

Psychedelic Wolverang!

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 20:26 (nineteen years ago)

X-MEN: THE TRIP (featuring Wolverine, Cyclops, and Mammomax)

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 20:30 (nineteen years ago)

I'm another of the 20 who would love X-Shade. But I won't miss Milligan. Despite desperate attempts to appreciate the dripping sarcasm behind his seemingly uncomplicated plots, I can't get rid of the feeling that he's giving fans the finger. SO much wasted potential!

― Madolan, Wednesday, 25 January 2006 20:30 (nineteen years ago)

Was STCM ever collected?

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 20:32 (nineteen years ago)

I think there might've been a few collections - there's at least one - but it's probably cheaper to just peruse eBay or your local bargain bin for a complete set.

Doop should join X-Factor. Or the Avengers. Or the Runaways. Or every Marvel book. AND he should be retroactively inserted into every previously published Marvel book. In place of either Flash Thompson, Rick Jones, Mantis, and Willie Lumpkin.

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 20:35 (nineteen years ago)

Fuck a grammar.

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 20:35 (nineteen years ago)

So please list off some reasons why anyone shouldn't be apathetic about a dullsville writer like Carey writing a 90s-tastic X-cast?

Cable, for the love of God!

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 20:41 (nineteen years ago)

Because, um, he ain't so dull?

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 20:42 (nineteen years ago)

And please don't even try to sell me on Lucifer! That book is weak.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 20:42 (nineteen years ago)

On the bright side, at least Geoff Johns isn't writing the X-Men yet.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 20:43 (nineteen years ago)

A very earnest question: why couldn't they have gotten Brian K Vaughan?

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 20:44 (nineteen years ago)

I'd like to think that, if GJ did move into Mutieville, he'd embark on a 2-year-long mega-arc that would connect Angel to the Red Angel, give the Beast rabies, and make Kitty Pryde into the new Dark Phoenix. And feature the return of OMEGA RED.

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 20:46 (nineteen years ago)

I can only hope that DC makes Geoff Johns an exclusive employee for life.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 20:49 (nineteen years ago)

BKV would be perfect.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 20:50 (nineteen years ago)

Possible answers to the BKV question:

1) He turned it down because he was burned out on X-stuff
2) He turned it down because of new / existing projects
3) Marvel wanted to pick folks that were X-noobs
4) They knew you wanted BKV on a title, and they're spiting you

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 20:50 (nineteen years ago)

I think option #4 is probably closest to the truth.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 20:51 (nineteen years ago)

But the reality is, Vaughan would only be really good if he was the guy steering the franchise with the core characters rather than one of the dudes who is charged with minding the b-list characters. Having him replace Whedon = a good idea Marvel should seriously consider.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 20:57 (nineteen years ago)

Actually, Whedon and Cassiday are doing 12 more issues, but spread over 18 months. Bi-monthly for a year, and then monthly for 6 months.

― The Yellow Kid, Wednesday, 25 January 2006 23:08 (nineteen years ago)

Oh really? That's the first I've heard of that. Good news.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 23:20 (nineteen years ago)

I haven't regularly bought the core X-titles for over a year now... and I don't really miss them at all.

X-Factor and New X-Men: Mutant Academy are basically what I want out of my mutants; fuck a Wolverine.

― Dan (I Miss Synch) Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 23:28 (nineteen years ago)

There was pretty good Wolferine in the last issue of Runaways.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 25 January 2006 23:32 (nineteen years ago)

A Milligan / Bachalo reunion that maybe 20 people give a rat's ass about! One way to inspire apathy in the X-dorks = reunite the team that brought you Vertigo's SHADE THE CHANGING MAN.

Note: I am one of those 20.

God, me too.

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Thursday, 26 January 2006 01:27 (nineteen years ago)

It's probably more like 200.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Thursday, 26 January 2006 01:53 (nineteen years ago)

Or 198, even.

― c(''c) (Leee), Thursday, 26 January 2006 02:19 (nineteen years ago)

The ILC Moderator, ladies and germs!

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 26 January 2006 03:31 (nineteen years ago)

Did someone say Shade? Oh wait, it's a superhero book, nevermind.

I'm slowly turning into my girlfriend who will read comics but can't take anything with a cape or powers.

― mike h. (mike h.), Sunday, 29 January 2006 04:10 (nineteen years ago)

the idea that chris claremont has ever been a "crazy visionary" is laughable

― Ward Fowler (Ward Fowler), Sunday, 29 January 2006 10:33 (nineteen years ago)

How soon we forget ... um ... Eric the Red!

― David R. (popshots75`), Sunday, 29 January 2006 17:12 (nineteen years ago)

Rather than defend it, I'd rather hear the argument for why his original run on Uncanny X-Men wasn't totally crazy and visionary and revolutionary.

Claremont is nothing if not a total weirdo!

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Sunday, 29 January 2006 17:34 (nineteen years ago)

Claremont started at Marvel pretty much the same time as Steve Gerber and Don McGregor, both of whom are much better candidates for 'crazy visionary' status - NOTHING Claremont has written comes close to the warped surrealism of Gerber's most OUT Man Thing, Omega, the Defenders, Howard the Duck etc scripts.

Claremont's best work - which I wld say is the X-men up to Byrne's departure - is very solid entertaining superhero saga stuff, but I wouldn't say it was especially bizarre, crazy or visionary (you cld prob make a case that some of it - y'know claremont's bullshit ideas abt 'strong' females - was polymorphously peverse, at a pinch.) Claremont didn't create any of the original X-Men, and his own undisputed creations have, by and large, been pretty rub - he seems to be at his best when developing other ppl's ideas and characters. I think that's fine, but again it's not exactly visionary either.

Considering the Marvel method of comic bk creation, there's a v. gd case to be made that Cockrum and Byrne were the true auteurs behind those classic issues of the New X-Men. I can't think of a single non-mutant title by Claremont that is worth reading (ok, maybe those issues of Marvel Team-Up drawn by...John Byrne)

― Ward Fowler (Ward Fowler), Sunday, 29 January 2006 20:22 (nineteen years ago)

Wait, who created Nightcrawler and Storm?

― Dan (I Smell Revisionism, I Think) Perry (Dan Perry), Sunday, 29 January 2006 22:18 (nineteen years ago)

Len Wein. He created the entire team of the New X-Men, aside from Cyke and Banshee, and maybe someone else.

― Matt Maxwell (Matt M.), Sunday, 29 January 2006 22:27 (nineteen years ago)

Len Wein co-created: Wolverine (w/ JR SR, I think!), Nightcrawler (Cockrum's fave, from what I've heard), Storm, Thunderbird, and Colossus. He was the guy that wrote Giant Sized X-Men #1, where the new X-folk debuted, as well as co-plotting the first 2 issues of X-Men that followed. Dave Cockrum (he who co-created the non-Wolverine New X-folk) also had a not-so-small part in creating the Starjammers & most of the Sh'iar folk.

― David R. (popshots75`), Sunday, 29 January 2006 23:03 (nineteen years ago)

a funny list from wikipedia:

X-Men Characters Created by Chris Claremont

Moira MacTaggart (Created with Dave Cockrum)
Stephen Lang (Created with Dave Cockrum)
Amanda Sefton (Created with Dave Cockrum)
Black Tom Cassidy (Created with Dave Cockrum)
Lilandra (Created with Dave Cockrum)
Gladiator(Created with Dave Cockrum)
Corsair (Created with Dave Cockrum)
Ch'od (Created with Dave Cockrum)
Cr+eee (Created with Dave Cockrum)
Hepzibah (Created with Dave Cockrum)
Raza (Created with Dave Cockrum)
Waldo (Created with Dave Cockrum)
____________________

Sabretooth
Deathbird
Captain Britain
Psylocke
Jamie Braddock
Courtney Ross
Madrox (Multiple Man)

Mariko Yashida(Created with John Bryne)
Shadow King (Created with John Bryne)
Col. Vahzin (Created with John Bryne)
Proteus (Created with John Bryne)
Wade Cole (Created with John Bryne)
Angelo Macon (Created with John Bryne)
Murray Reese (Created with John Bryne)
Sebastian Shaw (Created with John Bryne)
Emma Frost (Created with John Bryne)
Harry Leland (Created with John Bryne)
Donald Pierce (Created with John Bryne)
Sage (Tessa) (Created with John Bryne)
Senator Kelly (Created with John Bryne)
Shadowcat (Created with John Bryne)
Pyro (Created with John Bryne)
Avalanche (Created with John Bryne)
Destiny (Created with John Bryne)
Araki (Created with John Bryne)
Rachael Summers/Grey (Created with John Bryne)
Lee Forrester (Created with John Bryne)
Stevie Hunter (Created with John Bryne)
Mystique
Arcade
Miss Locke
Karma

Caliban (Created with Dave Cockrum)
Sikorsky (Created with Dave Cockrum)
Gabrielle Haller (Created with Dave Cockrum)
The Brood (Created with Dave Cockrum)
S'ym
Rogue
Siryn
Vertigo
Yukio

Callisto (Created with Paul Smith)
Masque (Created with Paul Smith)
Sunder (Created with Paul Smith)
Madelyne Pryor (Created with Paul Smith)
Emmanuel DaCosta
Sunspot
Moonstar
Cannoball
Wolfsbane
Magma
Cypher
Selene

The Morlock Healer (Created with John Romita Jr.)
Val Cooper (Created with John Romita Jr.)
Amiko (Created with John Romita Jr.)
Forge (Created with John Romita Jr.)
Leech (Created with John Romita Jr.)
Nimrod (Created with John Romita Jr.)
Fenris (Created with John Romita Jr.)
Scalphunter(Created with John Romita Jr.)
Malice (Created with John Romita Jr.)
"Nathan Summers"
Super Sabre
Stonewall
Crimson Commando
Warpath
Catseye
Roulette
Tarot
Jetstream
Empath
Warlock
Legion
Friedrich von Roehm
Sharon Friedlander
Tom Corsi
Lila Cheney
Strong Guy

Mr Sinster (Created with Marc Silvestri)
Bonebreaker (Created with Marc Silvestri)
Skullbuster (Created with Marc Silvestri)
Pretty Boy (Created with Marc Silvestri)
Gateway (Created with Marc Silvestri)
Tyger Tiger (Created with Marc Silvestri)
Tam Andersen (Created with Marc Silvestri)
Philip Moreau (Created with Marc Silvestri)
Genegineer Moreau (Created with Marc Silvestri)
Jenny Ransome (Created with Marc Silvestri)
Jubilee (Created with Marc Silvestri)
Bloodscream
Widget
Alistaire Stuart
Alysande Stuart
"Colin McKay"

Cylla Markham (Created with Jim Lee)
Lian Shen (Created with Jim Lee)
Gambit (Created with Jim Lee)
Fabian Cortez (Created with Jim Lee)
Anne-Marie Cortez (Created with Jim Lee)
Chrome (Created with Jim Lee)
Delgado (Created with Jim Lee)

Thunderbird (Neal Sharaa)
Karima Shapindar
Vargas (Created with Salvador Larocca)
Thais (Created with Salvador Larocca)
Thaiis (Created with Salvador Larocca)
Lifegard (Created with Salvador Larocca)
Slipstream (Created with Salvador Larocca)
Red Lotus (Created with Salvador Larocca)
Shola Inkose
Freakshow
Wicked

― Ward Fowler (Ward Fowler), Sunday, 29 January 2006 23:12 (nineteen years ago)

"I alone conceived of Bloodscream and Widget!"

― Ward Fowler (Ward Fowler), Sunday, 29 January 2006 23:24 (nineteen years ago)

Wait, how did this turn into this pointless tangent about which characters he created? What does that have to do with anything?

Maybe I'm setting the bar for "visionary status" kinda low, but his work on Uncanny X-Men back in the day completely changed the mainstream comics industry for a reason - he had a unique, quirky voice and a creative vision that carried him from the start with Cockrum up through the place where his run should have ended - with the
"death" of the X-Men in Dallas and their eventual dissolution in Australia. At his best, Chris Claremont was just as much a visionary in his art as Grant Morrison, even if Grant probably yielded better work. I mean, for fuck's sake, so much of the industry today is built on what Claremont and his collabotors did in the 70s and 80s - how can this be denied?

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Monday, 30 January 2006 00:01 (nineteen years ago)

It's also worth noting that while he did not create any of the major X-Men characters, he is the one who gave them personality and life. Magneto, Wolverine, Cyclops, Xavier, Phoenix, Kitty Pryde, Colossus, Rogue, Nightcrawler - he's the person most responsible for making them icons.

(Well, I think Frank Miller and John Byrne played a big part with Wolverine, but still.)

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Monday, 30 January 2006 00:04 (nineteen years ago)

I don't think anyone's denying Claremont's impact on the industry when he was hot shit a la carte. I just think they (and, yeah, me too) have a problem w/ the use of adjectives like "unique" and "quirky" re: Claremont. If anything, Claremont's MO was a refinement of Stan Lee's soap-operatics, right down to the caption boxes and romance du jour - not exactly unique. He was great at what he did @ the height of his powers, and this isn't to take away from what he accomplished, but what he was doing wasn't that uncommon at all - it was just done really really REALLY well!

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 30 January 2006 02:33 (nineteen years ago)

Okay, but when you put it that way, we're going to have to take away Grant Morrison's "visionary genius" card too.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Monday, 30 January 2006 12:37 (nineteen years ago)

Well, I don't know that I'd call GM a "visionary genius" for his X-run, either, but I'll let Tom 'splain that for me:

This run is an excellent example of how a very weary franchise can be revitalised simply by dint of having someone come along and think a bit about its premise. Chris Claremont established the idea of mutants as a persecuted minority and then blithely wrote eleven hundred issues with barely a thought about what that might mean beyond giant mutant-bashing robots and the X-Men having something else to moan about.
Morrison comes on and gives us mutants outing themselves, mutant ghettoes, mutant chic, actually quite nuanced arguments over which way a 'mutant movement' should go, humans who want to be mutants as well as humans who hate mutants, 'trans-species' villains, mutant celebrities, all within the context of X-Men as basically a sci-fi comic rather than a superhero one. It was all pretty broad-brush stuff but enormously refreshing and indicative of somebody who'd actually thought a bit about real-world racial/sexual politics and how a metaphorical treatment of them might work.

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 30 January 2006 15:04 (nineteen years ago)

I would have thought GM deserves to keep his card just for being batshit insane.

― Stone Monkey (Stone Monkey), Monday, 30 January 2006 15:07 (nineteen years ago)

Well, let's go back to the original context of how I used the phrase in the first place - I was talking about what I want from a person writing this franchise. So that obviously hems in what a person can do, obviously. In the conventional sense, no one is going to be all that much of a visionary writing a corporate property. But in context, you can have writers like Chris Claremont and Grant Morrison who come in with a distinct style and a clear vision of what they want the series to be and where it should go. Their ideas can be wild and weird and tied in with their quirks, or not. But they had a plan, a specific idea of what the concept is and the direction it should be heading. You know, unlike the guys who come into it and treat it like just another ho-hum superhero comic (Alan Davis, Fabian Nicieza) or seem like they are shooting right down the middle, desperately hoping not to rock the boat at all, which seems to be Ed Brubaker's style, at least so far.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Monday, 30 January 2006 16:40 (nineteen years ago)

desperately hoping not to rock the boat at all, which seems to be Ed Brubaker's style, at least so far.

What about Bucky?

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 30 January 2006 16:43 (nineteen years ago)

Well, that's Captain America, but still that move of "let's bring out a shocking thing from their past" isn't really that big of a deal anymore. So Charles Xavier has ANOTHER dark secret that changes everything forever? Yawn. It's pretty vanilla! At this point, the radical move would be to reestablish Xavier as a noble, ethical hero!

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Monday, 30 January 2006 16:49 (nineteen years ago)

i couldn't really deal with that "mutant chic" stuff

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 30 January 2006 16:51 (nineteen years ago)

X-POST (it really is!)
I think to argue that Claremont came in as a crazy, revolutionary weirdo, you'd have to point to some break that he made with the established style of the comic, how he subverted the expectations of the readers, defied the existing conventions, etc, etc. I don't and didn't read X-Men, so I can't judge whether he did or not.

― Ray (Ray), Monday, 30 January 2006 16:53 (nineteen years ago)

I mean really, look at what Brubaker is doing with his first arc in the abstract:

1) Charles Xavier has a dark secret! What a bastard!
2) The third Summers brother is revealed! Continuity lovers rejoice!
3) Banshee is dead! How brave it is to kill off a second string character!

It's pretty generic and lacking in imagination.

The writing is "solid," in the sense that there's nothing particularly embarassing or remotely stylized about it. I'd really rather read someone who was unafraid of being bold than someone who seems overeager for mainstream comics fan approval.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Monday, 30 January 2006 16:56 (nineteen years ago)

I think you're underplaying Brubaker's whatchamacallit. I think there's a certain grace and style to Brubaker's writing that, yeah, there's no signature stylistic PIZZAZZ, he doesn't come into a title and tear everything down and rebuild it in his own image. He writes excellent stories that are consistently readable and engaging. It's not Thrillpower, but that doesn't mean it's not valid or good. There's a quiet elegance to Brubaker's scripts (especially his Gotham Central stuff, which is REVOLUTIONARY in the sense of hey, here's Batman w/o Batman, only here's Batman to save the, FUCK YOU COPPERS!)
Certainly Thrillpower produces 5 duds for every classic (which is part of what makes it thrilling), but to say that the lack of thrillpower = dud isn't fair. (though it's certainly fair to say, "Not enough TP for my tastes!")

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:02 (nineteen years ago)

Well, I'm not saying Brubaker's been a dud - his writing on the comic thus far is respectable and good and sort of enjoyable, but there's no magic and nothing to make it special at all. It's just competent boilerplate, which is a rather sad direction for the franchise. I hate that so much of the comics industry is driven by audiences who seem to desire blandness above all other things. I can't say I'm thrilled about the DC-ization of the most Marvel of all Marvel comics.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:23 (nineteen years ago)

Huk, I hope this means you'll be buying X-Men books in the near future! (winky!)

And, yeah, what Huk said (macro view): ideas aren't anything w/out the ability to execute said ideas (cf. Chuck Austen falling flat on his face revamping Angel's powers versus GM's ability to give the White Queen a pretty WTF? powerup w/out folks flinching). You could bulletpoint almost any superhero storyline like that and make it sound pfffft. Hell, most of Marvel's recent Big Ideas (Avengers Disassemble #5; Spidey's Magical Transformication, Hose of M) are birthed from kernels of THRILLPOWER (that "things will never be the same again" SHOCKA trope), but they often fall short when it comes to delivering on said promise of THRILLs because of lackluster follow-thru. INFINITE SADFACE also falls under this banner, but we've already got 392 threads for that.

Mammomax.

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:26 (nineteen years ago)

I hate that so much of the comics industry is driven by audiences who seem to desire blandness above all other thing.

Replace "comics" w/ "entertainment," plz.

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:34 (nineteen years ago)

I hate that so much of the comics industry is driven by audiences who seem to desire blandness above all other things

See Denny O'Neil's FUCKYOUTOFANBOYS in his essay "The Crimson Viper vs. the Maniacal Morphing Meme" up for discussion in Comics & Philosophy where he talks about speaking at a University and asks the students what they think readers want from comic book writers and someone says, "They want them to preserve their childhood." And D.O'N is like, "bingo!" and then goes on about how and why that sucks.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:42 (nineteen years ago)

But "Things will never be the same again!" isn't thrillpower, it's the exact opposite, a prog double album To Stand The Test Of Time vs thrillpower's string of singles.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:25 (nineteen years ago)

But that's not the way it used to be! (OR WAS IT?)

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:28 (nineteen years ago)

USED TO BE = The Was No Same For Things To Ever Be (or, things were always the same, but it was what happened in between being the same that mattered?)

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:34 (nineteen years ago)

i'm still not sure what thrill power is! and why it's good! and why some things are it and other things (like infinite crisis) are not!

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:50 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/wedge/2005_10_01_wedge_archive.html#112989617695895290

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:53 (nineteen years ago)

Who's got the THRILL POWER?

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:58 (nineteen years ago)

i've read those but i'm still not sure how it means more than just "stuff we like"

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:04 (nineteen years ago)

I think it's shifted meaning over time (lo, these long 4 months!), but I think at heart, it's almost something frontierish, uncodified, immediate gratifying, empty calories, junk culture thing.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:10 (nineteen years ago)

Ha - the defintion of THRILLPOWER is THRILLPOWERED!

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:14 (nineteen years ago)

"fuck you to fanboys"?

― Dan (What's Wrong With Prince Or Marvin Gaye?) Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:49 (nineteen years ago)

WAIT WAIT WAIT

Banshee's dead????????

― Dan (Fuck You, Marvel) Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:50 (nineteen years ago)

He flew into blowing-up plane. No evidence of Banshee parts, tho.

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:52 (nineteen years ago)

"Banshee parts"

― Dan (OUT MENTAL IMAGES OUT) Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:53 (nineteen years ago)

"fuck you to fanboys" = Heraclitus: "You can't step in the same river twice" = Comic readers whinging about how a certain character (The Crimson Viper is DO'N's fictionalx2 example) isn't the same as the character of the same name that was their favourite character when they were a kid = Bill Shatner: "Get a life" = "Are you serious? We publish fiction, not documented history."

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:57 (nineteen years ago)

Banshee parts? Brubaker went out of his way to show Banshee's burnt corpse in the comic to prove that he was dead.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:55 (nineteen years ago)

Is that in the newest issue? I've only read up through #3.

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:57 (nineteen years ago)

Banshee is a MAN???

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 30 January 2006 21:02 (nineteen years ago)

It's in issue three. You see burnt-up Banshee and Nightcrawler is all "oh no, he was a friend," blah blah.

Also, weirdly enough, for a story built out of continuity, it's weird that Emma Frost's reaction to Banshee's death would be downplayed. She's angry and all, but they really don't bother making the connection that the two of them ran a school together for a few years.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Monday, 30 January 2006 21:06 (nineteen years ago)

In general, I am not one to complain about character deaths. However, what precisely does one get out of killing Banshee? It's slightly less defensible than killing Northstar.

Oh well, at least he's a mutant and therefore will get resurrected in two years.

― Dan (Stupid Marvel) Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 30 January 2006 21:28 (nineteen years ago)

I just think it's really annoying to kill off old characters who will inevitably be of use to other writers because it just means they get brought back somehow, and it is invariably lame. If you have to kill someone off, at least leave some room in there for another writer to bring the character back easily. I still don't quite get how Colossus came back even though he was cremated.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Monday, 30 January 2006 21:41 (nineteen years ago)

He got better!

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 30 January 2006 21:42 (nineteen years ago)

Bringing back cremated characters = lame
Oh, they never found the body. Or his. Or hers. = ???

― Ray (Ray), Monday, 30 January 2006 21:51 (nineteen years ago)

Colossus is actually T2!

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 30 January 2006 21:52 (nineteen years ago)

I would love it if Marvel did a total Friday the 13th on its characters and irrevocably killed off a large number of them. I tend to gravitate towards "new" or "new-to-me" characters anyway so it could be massively entertaining to read.

― Dan (New Is Always Better) Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 30 January 2006 21:57 (nineteen years ago)

In theory, the advantage to long-running characters is that there's a web of relationships there that doesn't have to be spelled out every time they appear.
In practice, those relationships have to be spelled out anyway every time, because nobody wants to limit their audience to the people who were reading ten years ago.

― Ray (Ray), Monday, 30 January 2006 22:01 (nineteen years ago)

Ever hear of Infinite Crisis, there, Ray?

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 30 January 2006 22:50 (nineteen years ago)

Okay, let's try thatone again.
In theory, the advantage to long-running characters etc etc
In practice (in theory), those relationships have to be etc etc
In practice in practice, comics companies are run by morons. Yippee!

― Ray (Ray), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 08:44 (nineteen years ago)

does "so much of the industry today is built on what Claremont and his collaborators did in the 70s and 80s" mean genius-hood? even if true? does it even imply talent?

― tom west (thomp), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 09:19 (nineteen years ago)

i mean, i love 'em and all, but i don't look at the current state of DC and Marvel* and think woo, check the crystallized genius, there.

* who i assume = the industry, here, i don't think we can blame claremont for fantagraphics - i'd like to, but i just don't think it'd fly -

― tom west (thomp), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 09:20 (nineteen years ago)

I don't think I've ever read Claremont, so my possibly-completely inaccurate impression is that he's known for soap opera storylines and extreme wordiness. The soap opera thing isn't new, it was the basic appeal of Spiderman and the Fantastic Four, right? So, wordiness as revolutionary?

― Ray (Ray), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 09:30 (nineteen years ago)

It's really unfortunate that the actual content and formal structure of his X-Men work from about 1984 up through 1989 is just getting glossed over by everyone as being just a "soap opera." I mean, that's an element of it, but I think there's a lot more things going on, surely much more than most anyone is going to bring to the table now.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 13:53 (nineteen years ago)

I'm not didmissing the possibility that there is more going on, I'd just like to know what you think that 'more' is? Panel layout? Character motivation?

― Ray (Ray), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 14:13 (nineteen years ago)

Ninjas.

― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 14:34 (nineteen years ago)

plot threads that are not resolved for five years plus

― Mark C (Markco), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 16:20 (nineteen years ago)

Mohawks.

― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 16:22 (nineteen years ago)

HR Giger ripoffs.

― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 16:23 (nineteen years ago)

Paedophilia? (Or possibly barely-legal-ophilia?)

― Ray (Ray), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 16:38 (nineteen years ago)

Spirit journeys.

― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 16:39 (nineteen years ago)

Very small dragons.

― rogermexico (rogermexico), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 19:30 (nineteen years ago)

"~~plot~~ threads that are not resolved for five years plus" sounds like ILC.

― c(''c) (Leee), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 20:17 (nineteen years ago)

OK, so:

TEAM WHEDON: Cyclops / Wolverine / White Queen / Shadowpryde / Beast / Colossus / Lockheed (hell yeah)

TEAM CAREY: Mystique / Rogue / Iceman / Sabretooth / Cannonball / Cable (and I am all for a misfitty clean-slate type of team)

Which could mean...

TEAM BRUBAKER: Nightcrawler / Marvel Girl / newbies from the back-up stories in Deadly Genesis / old New Mutants folk like Mirage or Magma or Sunspot / Mammomax / DOOP!

Or, in essence, what MP said over here, but with more DOOP!

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 2 February 2006 00:11 (nineteen years ago)

I just found out Claremont's mucking around w/ Shi'ar Death Commandos named Sega, Offset, and Shell in Uncanny. That's hot.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 2 February 2006 00:13 (nineteen years ago)

Mirage is out, she's one of the depowered characters.

Karma is up for grabs. She's a good choice!

I don't think Brubaker is ballsy enough to run with Mammomax.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Thursday, 2 February 2006 01:37 (nineteen years ago)

Forge is also up for grabs.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Thursday, 2 February 2006 01:38 (nineteen years ago)

I imagine that Brubaker will have Charles Xavier in his group.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Thursday, 2 February 2006 01:42 (nineteen years ago)

Too bad Grant Morrison is a DC character, he could join the X-Men.

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 2 February 2006 01:57 (nineteen years ago)

He's dead, too.

― kit brash (kit brash), Thursday, 2 February 2006 02:27 (nineteen years ago)

Does DC own the rights to comic book Grant Morrison, do you think?

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 2 February 2006 02:30 (nineteen years ago)

More importantly, during the Amalgam DC/Marvel crossover mix-em-up event, was comic book Grant Morrison merged with comic book Stan Lee (and/or Jack Kirby) from the issue of What If? where Marvel Bullpen staffers got the powers of the Fantastic Four?

― Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 2 February 2006 02:35 (nineteen years ago)

If Steve Gerber & Bob Haney merged, that'd be wicked.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 2 February 2006 02:42 (nineteen years ago)

Roy Thomas and Roy Thomas merge and write The Trial of The Invaders! (Or wait, in the Amalgam U, it'd be The Trial of the All-Invasion Squadders or something. God did the names suck in that event.)

― Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 2 February 2006 02:45 (nineteen years ago)

Carmine Infantino merges with Jeff from D.P. 7 and discovers The Speed Lines Force!

― Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 2 February 2006 02:48 (nineteen years ago)

Does DC own the rights to comic book Grant Morrison, do you think?

According to the indicia on both Animal Man and Suicide Squad, Grant and his distinctive likeness are trademarks of DC Comics.

Me too, probably.

― kit brash (kit brash), Thursday, 2 February 2006 05:05 (nineteen years ago)

Me too, probably.

― Chris F. (servoret), Thursday, 2 February 2006 05:45 (nineteen years ago)

Superboy uses Kit as brie in the next issue of INFINITE CRISIS!

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 2 February 2006 07:14 (nineteen years ago)

Waitaminit! Grant Morrison was in Suicide Squad?

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 2 February 2006 14:37 (nineteen years ago)

He's Batman.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 2 February 2006 14:39 (nineteen years ago)

Grant Morrison was in one issue of Suicide Squad, for a mission where the team had to be augmented by loads of DCU z-stringers. He [SPOILER WARNING] died.

(I was in the background of a bar scene in Orion, but it was a poor likeness, so there's yr legal loophole.)

― kit brash (kit brash), Friday, 3 February 2006 03:51 (nineteen years ago)

Brubaker's team: Nightcrawler, Rachel Summers, Warpath, Havok and Professor X (eventually). And some other people he wasn't going to name yet.

― Amadeo (Amadeo G.), Monday, 6 February 2006 00:37 (nineteen years ago)

Warpath is a pretty fascinating choice, but it also kinda highlights the problem of writers being forced to scrape the bottom of the barely these days. It's weird, though, that the writers seem unwilling to run with Grant Morrison's characters. What about the Stepford Cuckoos? Fantomex and E.V.A.? Fantomex would be an interesting character to develop - he's a man who lives without an identity, the type of dude who decided to be French on a whim! That would open him up to a lot of strange reinventions. It's too bad Peter Milligan never got to play with him.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Monday, 6 February 2006 03:15 (nineteen years ago)

On the other hand, insisting on using a character like Warpath and running with the Third Summers Brother, Xavier's Dark Past, and the Shi'Ar Empire also reinforces my impression that Brubaker is a slave to continuity and has very little new to bring to the franchise other than yet more retcons.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Monday, 6 February 2006 03:18 (nineteen years ago)

the stepford cuckoos are in academy x or were or something at least i thought so

― tom west (thomp), Monday, 6 February 2006 11:32 (nineteen years ago)

They were featured on the cover prior to the creative team change.

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 6 February 2006 14:38 (nineteen years ago)

Aw, Sook-y Sook-y (gone) now.

― David R. (popshots75`), Saturday, 11 February 2006 23:09 (nineteen years ago)

BRUBAKER GOES COSMIC!

And either Billy Tan took about 10 years to draw that, the inker did most of the work, or BT made a HUGE leap forward.

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 17 February 2006 04:09 (nineteen years ago)

Keep fucking a grammar.

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 17 February 2006 04:10 (nineteen years ago)

Oh - in case anyone cares:

- Angel lost his wings
- Marrow's w/ the Morlocks
- ERG IS BACK AND PISSED!

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 17 February 2006 04:15 (nineteen years ago)

Who do you figure the mystery member is going to be?

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Friday, 17 February 2006 05:07 (nineteen years ago)

Batman.

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 17 February 2006 15:31 (nineteen years ago)

Given the hints EB dropped in his N-Rama-view, I'm thinking it might be one of the DG characters. Or Banshee. Or DARK MOIRA.

The Officially Unofficial ILC Rankings for the Decimations minis:

1) Son of M (by a wiiiiiide margin)
2) The 198
3) Generation M
4) Sentinel Squad O*N*E (despite rumbles w/ a fake Galactus & a Growing Man)

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 17 February 2006 15:38 (nineteen years ago)

Son Of M has really wonderful art! I haven't read it yet, though. I can't believe they put a guy that good on a third-string title like that.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Friday, 17 February 2006 16:03 (nineteen years ago)

It'd be kinda awesome if the seventh mystery member was Mammomax.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Friday, 17 February 2006 16:06 (nineteen years ago)

Mammomax & Doop need to make babies.

Son of M has been fantastic in every aspect, especially in the latest issue. The thing is: it isn't an X-story. It's an Inhumans story. And Quicksilver's the bad guy.

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 17 February 2006 16:12 (nineteen years ago)

Well, that's sensible. Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are better villains than heroes, but I say that as lifelong X-Men fan who never really liked The Avengers.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Friday, 17 February 2006 18:12 (nineteen years ago)

Next: Claremont Gets X-Iled!

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 24 February 2006 17:41 (nineteen years ago)

IE given books which are actually out of continuity rather than one which pays sod all attention to the other books, and vice versa.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 24 February 2006 17:52 (nineteen years ago)

God damn, I wish Genext were being written by the Claremont of fifteen years ago. Both it and Exiles seem like the kind of thing that could bring out both the best and worst in him. (By the same token, Genext would work better as an ongoing, with Claremont taking years to build up ridiculous backstory and subplots, than a short-TPB throwaway.)

― Tep (ktepi), Friday, 24 February 2006 17:56 (nineteen years ago)

Oh hey, Mammomax is in the newest issue of X-Men!

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Friday, 24 February 2006 23:58 (nineteen years ago)

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