DC Crisis 2/Countdown Speculation AND BEYOND! (with possible spoilers)

The rumours say that there is a clue to the upcoming Crisis2 (The Revenge?) somewhere in Identity Crisis, now in the 1st issue of Identity Crisis, wasn't that a suit of Lex Luthor's pre-Crisis Earth-1 power armour in the box? I don't buy every DC Comic in existence (Lack of both money and time, coupled with the fact that a large number of them are crap, get in the way) but I was under the impression that that particular prop hadn't been seen for 19 years or so...

The Luthor Battlesuit has been seen from time to time, first in a slight variation as the gear worn by LexCorp Security, most recently in Superman/Batman #6 where Pres. Luthor officially loses his nut. He'd been injecting a mixture of Venom (a super-steroid from Batman comics--used by Bane, I think) and Green Kryptonite, and finally suited up in the armor (amped up with Apokoliptian--aka Darkseid--tech). Of course, Supes and Bats took LL Cool L down, and he was presumed dead, buried in the wreckage of the LexCorp building, but on the last page of that issue they showed him cackling about how "There will be a reckoning...a CRISIS!"

Next we see the suit in IC, and that plot thread was just picked up in the latest issue of Teen Titans, still on the stands. I won't spoil the whole thing, but the two kids who shot Bolt in IC #1 are using it, and somebody (guess who!) wants it back!

All gorgeously rendered by Rags Morales.

I am guessing that Batman is cured of his mindwipe thingy and stops being a dick, but I don't see how this is going to rock the DCU to the very core of it's being - unless he declares war on all the other superheros or something.

God, I really hope that was big dumb foreshadowing, cos otherwise, who the hell would use the word crisis like that?

Great cover idea for DC: Group Therapy - birds' eye shot of a bunch of DC heroes strapped to tables arranged in a circle preparing for electroshock therapy, with the Psycho Pirate in the middle of the circle, fists raised in triumph, cackling. Cover caption = "MY PSYCHOANALYST ... MY ENEMY!" (Artist, of course = Brian Bolland.)

COPYWRITTEN SO DON'T COPY ME!

http://www.popcultureshock.com/reviews.php?id=3911

Sweet crap, how about a more crap title? (Like THE RANN / THANGARIAN WAR?) I'm geeked, sure, but, sheesh, allow my geekage to be somewhat justified!

I would say "I can't wait until Marvel's War of Secrets," but then again, we just had/are having/will have forfuckingever Secret Wars, so there we go. Maybe next year they'll have The Apocalyptic Age, or Mutants Falling, and meanwhile Christopher Tolkien's Ringlords will be optioned by Lucasfilm and queued up behind Warstars: The Menace of Phantoms.

Bring on FORCE NIGHT and MYSTERY HOUSE!

INFINITE CRISIS, what the Christ. That's like a working title so you don't need to remind everyone what you're talking about. After this will be CRISIS IDENTITIES, and then the big one, the enchilada, CRISIS ON IDENTICAL EARTHS, where the Superman of Adventures of Superman, the Superman of Action, and the Superman of Superman finally meet up at last.

DC COUNTDOWN - i) countdown to unspecified big things, which can include all 4 spin off minis as well as anything else that follows. ii) since the story structure seems to count down to something ("20 minutes ago" etc) the title links to that. iii) prominent inclusion of DC reinforces the "jumping on point" for non-DC readers and makes it clear this encompasses their entire universe.

COUNTDOWN TO INFINITE CRISIS - i) countdown to specific event, which then isn't immediately following, leaving less of a link to the minis. ii) references 20-year-old story giving impression this is 'one for the fans' not for newcomers. iii) unwieldy to say the least.

I wonder if Marvel will respond w/ MARVEL'S COUNTDOWN TO INFINITE DISCS, a 12-part maxi-series about a world FED UP w/ AOL mailings!

Yeah I know that but with this event their whole core audience will be getting it ANYWAY! And it's an ideal opportunity to get the DC-agnostic part of the comics shop audience back.

AND it means that the meagre surprise PR value from an announcement of "Infinite Crisis" has been blown.

(Of course I've just realised that all the actual orders for this will have been under the DC Countdown name anyway. And that this is a price-driven event so all this is somewhat irrelevant.)

I doubt they're interested in a new audience with this series, though, that's true -- but I think it pretty much is one just for the fans (if you don't watch Law and Order, would you bother watching an arc devoted to major changes in the cast/plot?), so there might not be anything wrong with a title that makes that clear. The specific title still sucks, but not necessarily for that reason.

I must say that I like the look of the Spectre mini, it looks sorta washed out like those old Aparo Spectre comics. I kinda hate the way everything has to look so slick and quasi-3D nowadays. When I was a kid reading comics, it was 2D and we loved it.

But the loss-leading $1 cover price (for 80 pages!) seems to suggest that they ARE making a play at a new audience. Though the "new audience" they're targeting might just be Marvel Zombies w/ a secret desire to become DC Cadavers. If DC's making a play for that demographic, then the butt-ass title (ref. history & glories past) might be the way to go.

I think it's like the Ten Cent Adventure -- they want to get existing comic readers hooked on a storyline that won't be completed unless they pony up the regular money, people who wouldn't ordinarily buy a miniseries, whether it's because they don't read DC or they stick to their usual titles. Even the marketing doesn't make sense for a jump-on for non- or former comics readers -- they won't really say what it's about, they insist that it's not a continuity fix like Crisis or Zero Hour (which makes the Infinite Crisis title worse; either they're calling up unnecessary associations for a weak reason, or they're lying about the premise, which wouldn't make sense if they want to fish new ponds) -- the only selling point beyond the usual "it's a good story" is "it will affect the comics we figure you're already reading."

Focusing on Blue Beetle (though the preview provides a decent rudimentary intro to Ted Kord) seems a bizarre move if they are hoping to snag MarvelZombies who most likely have only read Batman & Superman comics drawn by Jim Lee, but I really like him anyway and hope he doesn't DIE.

BEETLE: "OH MY GOD! I have eaten a miscut Fugu fish! I shall die! A CRISIS!"

BOOSTER: "BWAH HAH HAH!"

(Speaking of which: do they think Identity Crisis has diluted the associations of the "Crisis" word? Even if it had, pairing it with "Infinite" would kind of reverse that.)

COUNTDOWN TO INCONCIEVABLE CRISIS would've been better, esp. if they could've embedded a greeting-card chip in every copy w/ Wallace Shawn's voice saying "Inconthievable!" every time a page was turned.

There are actually more than I was thinking, we just don't see them as often as we did the pre-Crisis ones. Even aside from Kingdom and Kingdom Come, and the idea of Hypertimelines which has been established despite our rarely seeing them, and Earth 2 -- there's The Vertigo Problem, where the pre-Vertigo Vertigo titles like Sandman, Animal Man, and Shade started out in the DCU but slid away from it until it wasn't clear whether they took place there or not. Not that it matters much, but it actually is a point of continuity that could be fixed, if someone got a serious bug up their ass about it.

Legends was originally called CRISIS ON CAPTIVE EARTH.

CRISIS OF THE SOUL was a third mini which never happened. There's an article on it in a fanzine called "Back Issue" #9 which came out LAST WEEK!!

He ended up nearly taking over the world, without any superheroes coming to stop him -- despite the Justice League and supervillains being pretty key in his Morrison-written issues, by the end of the title he seemed to live in a world without superheroes.

Likewise Swamp Thing went from the occasional tussle with Batman or Superman to a world where superheroes just politely left him and his wacky little hijinks alone, for the sake of his spandex-phobic readers; and a major US city (Pittsburgh? San Francisco? I can't remember) was destroyed in Shade. I can't think of much in Hellblazer that would make a difference, mostly because I haven't read it in so long, but its various plots about goings-on in Hell might have an impact on the Demon.

(Oh, and another Swamp Thing thing -- the crossover with Firestorm that laid out a completely different scheme of how elementals work than ended up being true for Vertigo-era ST.)

xpost

Was Shade ever DCU?

(And like I said: it doesn't matter, except to hypothetical future writers of the characters who might be frustrated by not being sure what to do with the inconsistent backstory. But most of this would be fixed if we could go back in time and threaten to throat-punch comic book writers who can't think of any way to escalate a storyline without having someone take over the world.)

Shade was DCU, at a minimum, by extension of crossing over with DCU native John Constantine. I don't remember if there's anything more explicit than that.

I think Phantom Stranger was Vertigo'd, too! He might've had a one-shot somewhere along the way.

Rac Shade was a security agent in the other-dimensional world of Meta, framed for a crime he never committed. He fled to Earth and escaped the Meta authorities, including a Doctor Z.Z., for years. He was eventually stranded in the so-called "Zero Zone" where he was found by the Suicide Squad (II). He joined the Squad for a few missions, and in exchange got their help in bringing him home to Meta. Some time after Shade's journey back to his homeworld, an entirely different version of him appeared on Earth. (See Shade the Changing Man II.) Since then, the first Shade has apparently returned to Earth, and was recently seen fighting the JSA while mind-controlled by the Ultra-Humanite. Shade's main weapon is his M-vest, which causes people to see him as distorted and gruesome images reflecting their own fears.


Overview: Shortly after Shade the Changing Man (I) had left Earth, an entirely different version of him appeared. This Rac Shade was also from Meta, and had fled their authorities, but that's as far as the similarities go. He first appeared possessing the body of a murderer who had been sent to the electric chair. Together with two young women named Kathy and Lenny, Shade embarked on many fantastic voyages, inevitably attracting weirdness and madness everywhere. He battled threats such as the American Scream and the Movie Magic Madness, encountered John Constantine in a haunted hotel, and examined his own evil persona called Hades. He was also a woman for some time. This Shade's M-Vest was a "Madness" vest, powered by insanity, that could change reality. Shade II was last seen attending a New Year's Eve party with John Constantine, Animal Man, and Zatanna, among others.

Was the Suicide Squad Shade the Ditko Shade or the Milligan Shade?

Static Shock had his own series written by Dwayne MacDuffie years ago, but it wasn't DC, it was Milestone.

I'm gonna read the War Games stuff soon, I think.

the DC msg bds are on fire with reports that Blue Beetle gets whacked by Maxwell Lord

Not really sure why they feel the need to continue killing JLI characters. I hope Rocket Red and L-Ron are looking over their shoulders…

Odd that it's five 14-page chapters, though--it seems like maybe it was originally intended to be serialized? Maybe even as a series of five weekly giveaways or inserts in other comics?

I suppose "Oh man he is so SAD!! That is so REAL!!" is the hoped-for reaction, but everyone in this comic is such a horrible boring bastard that it's hard to care for any other reason than 'They took onwe of my favourite old toys and broke it', which isn't really a comic-buying motivation.

At first, I was like, aw, if they have to off someone of that era, why not Booster Gold? Like...Glue could conceivably have had some decent stories worth telling, and was an occasional bit player in BoP. Booster? Without Glue, what good is he?
But what would that have been worth? Plus, he has a wife.

To make you buy comic books.

Never.

Must admit, it makes all the more sense wht JLA: Classified is called Classified, considering half of its characters have been killed off in the last year. Formerly Known As The Justice League? Formally Known As Alive. I Can't Belive It's Not The Justice League: yeah, cos they are all dead.

1) An insatiable desire on the part of the editors and creators to wipe out every last silly/light hearted thing in the DCU and revamp it so that it is dark and miserable and "realistic." The irony is, Blue Beetle and the rest of the old Giffen Justice League is vastly more real and human than the bland generic characters that populate virtually every current mainstream DC title. What is the point of getting rid of every last bit of joycore and DC and going 100% borecore?

2) That obnoxious "Superman and Wonder Woman etc are like Gods!" reverence. Yeah, they are powerful and whatever, but can the writers please get over that kowtowing-to-aging-fanboys crap? We get it, Superman is King Of The Super Heroes. Yeah yeah yeah. Does every bland superhero writer need to be riding on Kurt Busiek's jock?

3) Such drab art, such pedestrian writing. Phil Jiminez is alright, but it's all so average for the most part.

4) What a terrible and misleading title! What does any of this have to do with Crisis On Infinite Earths? It seems more like the Janus Directive II.

Seriously, this whole comic seems like it was designed to be a big kick to the nuts of anyone who ever liked Giffen/DeMatteis Justice League. Fuck you, DC! Anyone with taste knows that version was the best version of the Justice League ever. Let's just face it, okay? Wonder Woman and Aquaman and Hal Jordan and Hawkman are pretty lousy, cardboard characters. Get over the 50s, please!

1) An insatiable desire on the part of the editors and creators to wipe out every last silly/light hearted thing in the DCU and revamp it so that it is dark and miserable and "realistic." The irony is, Blue Beetle and the rest of the old Giffen Justice League is vastly more real and human than the bland generic characters that populate virtually every current mainstream DC title. What is the point of getting rid of every last bit of joycore and DC and going 100% borecore?

The introduction to the "Justice League: A New Begining" TPB pretty explictly paints the series as a deliberate reaction to the 80's "Dark Knight Returns" type grim 'n' gritty movement. I guess that getting over that is *still* as U&K as getting over the 50's, really.

Janus Directive II - yes! But the Janus Directive was GREBT.

Blue Beetle for me is a much-loved character whose appearances are better remembered than re-read, so I was sad to see him go but maybe not as sad as I thought I would be.

Also agree with Matt that realism should incorporate the funny but I think the current generation of DC writers believe they are doing that by the classic means of having a wisecracker or two on every team. Reading the Teen Titans and The Outsiders I get the feeling there's some Manual Of Team Dynamics these people follow very closely.

Re. story specifics, the Manhunter being a dick is the most grating aspect cos it retcons him into a two-faced cockfarmer of the worst kind and a rubbish telepath to boot (also if he was embarrassed by being in a team with Beetle, what must he think of Bloodwynd). The Maxwell Lord thing has a superficial "WHOA KEWL" aspect but then gets stupid with that ridiculous bit about "oh why do you think I kept the League ineffectual all those years", which is the worst kind of retcon, explaining away what every reader knows is editorial fashion as if it 'all makes sense'. How did Max do that? To Batman, say? And why did he stop? It's as if a Marvel writer felt the need to explain why Dr Strange used to do weird things with his hands when Ditko drew him, or how Claremont characters saying each others names all the time was down to an 'amnesia field' around the mansion or something.

As Dave says grim'n'gritty is as much part of DCs 80s heritage as warm,human'n'funny. I would happily take both over po-faced iconic, but unfortunately it looks like this grim'n'iconic hybrid is what we're going to get.

So Blue Beetle as new Spectre then?

OTMs all around for Giffen/DeMatteis humanity. Those comics are remembered for their jokes, but none of those jokes would have worked (well, a few might've) if they hadn't been uttered/played on fully-fleshed 3-d characters.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Batman in JLI at that time was way more likely to age into the vain, sadistic hardass we saw in DKR than the mopey dope that was playing him in Batman-proper. Detective Comics Batman mostly didn't mess with no fool-ass personality, he had better things to do.

I swear to god, if I see one more Rags Morales teary-eyed superhero mustering the strength to get out of bed, I'll kill Batman myself and get the whole thing over with.

Yeah, for real. Whatever happened to the patient, gentle guy who loved Oreos and was like a father figure to his teammates?

xpost - She seems to put in a lot of time on msg boards, so, um, I think there's that "one of us" thing going on.

Yeah, but it's true 95% of the time!

I'm not sure if "silly fun for people who know way too much Marvel/DC trivia" is what I'm looking for in comics right now. Not that it's always bad, mind you.

& her Deadpool isn't based solely on silly character-based trivia, if at all. Nor is Slott's She-Hulk - there's definitely that aspect to the story, but it's also enjoyable on the "fun for fun's sake" level, as some folks here (like "What's Marvel?" fan Huk-L) can attest. & I'd really like to know how "turning Rhino into a keychain" becomes "silly fun for people who know way too much DC / Marvel trivia".

http://www.dccomics.com/features/countdown_the_omac_project/intro.php

JEAN! NO!

Here's Abhay Khosla on Infinite Cuntdown.

you ever read any interviews or anything with c.c. beck? the captain marvel guy? kinda reminds me of that where... its just funny how things that are charming and funny, people in comics hate and apologize for and then they hold up this soulless personality free hackery like it was a fucking trophy.

when did comics become so concerned with who's a first stringer and who's a "second-stringer?" have you noticed that's just a concept that's snuck into all of these comics where everyone just sits around and worries about where they are in the superhero hierarchy? its like the writers are anxious about their royalties and its bleeding through to the characters... "if only i was writing batman, i'd be getting higher residuals...

ughhhh, i mean, i really can't even read this anymore because of how awful this narration is. "Green Lantern shows up. i want to rub my penis its so hard because i think he's so cool and i hope he likes me. i'm a fanboy just like you are, i don't get laid, noone likes me-- so if green lantern likes me, he'll like you, and ... oh, god, i wish i could just put myself into his mouth just for a second. just the tip." that's how dc comics read to me now... when did heroic fiction comic books become so explicitely about hero worship??? what the fuck is that???

I thought the Khosla review was funny but a bit exhausting. Also I was distracted trying to work out which edgy comedian he wants to be.

Blue Beetle for the new Blue Devil.

From those post snippets, it sounds like Kholsa's aiming for Jerry Seinfeld via Dennis Leary.

I dunno. I'm sort of intrigued and siding w/ the "oh, WTF is this nonsense?" stance of yous guys. "Redeeming" Blue Beetle & Booster Gold via near-death / bullet-meets-head experiences = not even remotely necessary. Blue Beetle as seemingly unworthy schlub = OK in theory, though it's excessively overplayed here. "Dude, you're a millionaire, but you're almost broke!" Max Lord placating the Doltish Duo on page 10, and then popping BB in the head on page 80 like he's some wicked mastermind = HUH? First-person narrative = cloying at best, punchably ridiculous at worst (cf. the Ed Benes part w/ all the BIG GUNS, & Blue Beetle writing fan fiction in his head w/ each encounter). JUST WRITE STORIES YOU JERKS. None of this dumbshit Sam Spade / Wonder Years / American Beauty voiceover crap.

Anyway, what Douglas & Tom said. Aside from the stupid ass details (like wonky plot-assisting mischaracterizations), the story bits they tease intrigue (CHECKMATE!), so I'll give it a shot. I just wish this didn't read like some extended metaphor re: DC killing off the "fun" in lieu of the "gritty".

This tact seems esp. silly in light of Marvel's NEXT initiative, where they're introducing "fun" new teen superfolk into the MU, and the stuff that Dan Slott's been writing. Never mind GM's SS, which is taking place in some supposedly bizarro pocket universe where stories can be SERIOUS and GRITTY and FUN and LIGHTHEARTED all at the same time w/out compromising anything.

And I have no idea of how popular Charlton comics were during their peak, if they even had one, but Blue Beetle was their marquee player, no?

There's a particular kind of macho office politics that's crept into superhero comics - cf Chuck's spot-on post on another thread about New Avengers being "JLI for jocks" - and it's a bit creepy. Weirdly enough in a sense I think JLI actually started it - showing superheroes being dicks and dick-waving to an extent, playing up the interpersonal stuff.

There's an analogue between the 80s and now though in terms of what the industry's big self-esteem issue is. 80s: OMG comics are seen as kids stuff, we must make them more adult, so you get lashings of sex'n'violence all over, "adult themes". 00s: OK theyve driven off the kids, but there's still a worry that comics are for NERDS, so you have a 'focus on character' that basically replicates playground/office social structures where it's OK to ignore and laugh at the lamers.

I don't get a lot of this DC logic, though. How did J'onn J'onzz get to be one of the big stars of the DCU? He was never in cartoons until fairly recently, never had a hit series of his own. He was in with JLI crew. WTF? Is it just because he's big and strong and has been around a while? Or is it just because Grant Morrison smiled upon him?

He's kind of the Hawkeye of the JLA - spirit of the team and so on. Except actually powerful too. But there is much speculation over whether he'll bite it next, he is the most disposable 'big' character DC have.

The post-Morrison JLA appears to have all sorts of doofuses in it judging from skim-reading the latest issue.

Aquaman is more likely to die, I'd have thought, because it's a job that can be passed on. Jonn is the last of the Martians (apart from all those other ones). But Aquaman may be given a pass becaus his was the last character to undergo major non-fatal (IE permanent) change, and there are teams of research writers in DC studying this strange form of story to see how it might work.

The ideal end to the Red Hood business would be a new Batman.

ospilce wen het semoceb gnirol naej

BTW - the latest solicit for Days of Vengeance (the CRISIS! mini written by Bill Willingham) mentions DETECTIVE CHIMP! And BLUE DEVIL!

Also Ospilce is rub just cos.

I like Osplice in theory, & I think he was employed in a "oooh, supervillians are POWERFUL" manner in the Johns-abetted JSA. But outside of that & that annual x-over event from 10+ years ago(that is, the event where the annuals x'd-over w/ some 2-issue SPECIAL EVENT series), I dunno the guy. Aside from knowing he liked to squint. & he liked looking through his wee wittle gem. (Oh wow flashback - the dood had a REGULAR SERIES following that event. GONG.)

Ha - O'Splice shd be the new Irish hero in the Xtreme Global Guardians!

But by the time he was the focus of a summer Revossorc that came with free ffuts, he was pretty lame.

OMG more flasbacks - the first issue of that x-over event featured a PLASTIC PURPLE GEM glued onto the cover!!!!

Dave you're right and it's not as if I even liked Identity Crisis but even so there was something that made me particuarly groan about this twist.

I'd enjoy reading about a Spirit of BWAH-HAH-HAH (and I know that joke's been made / alluded to, but I DON'T CARE)!

ihttp://www.supermanartists.comics.org/silverage/Eclipso-HOS61.JPG

The anti-meta biz has been around since Byrne's revamp of Superman--more specifically, since Byrne's revamp of Lex Luthor, and it's a theme often visited in Superman and in Green Lantern for ages. The fear is not so much the Marvel-style (as I vaguely understand--mainly from X-Movies) fear of The Other as it holds to a philosophy that the surplus of super-powered beings on Planet Earth encourages humanity to not take responsibility for their own destiny. Luthor, especially (and I think this is currently being played up BIG TIME in the Azzarello mini), believes that Superman and his buddies diminish the glory of human achievement.
Batman, ideologically, if not ever in practice, seems to find himself on Luthor's side, though I guess that's all being retconned to be less of a philosophy and more of a psychic backlash against his Zobotomy.

Does this date from Kingdom Come, or Dark Knight Returns, or is it older?

Superman: "Out of curiousity, is there any part of your costume you particularly wouldn't want to catch fire?"

OMG!!! DRUNK CHIMP ROXXORS BEST PART OF INFINITE CRISIS!

(that better?)

Within two weeks, two major references to pre-Crisis continuity in post-Crisis continuity books!

First in Superman/Batman #19, as (SPOILER!!!) S & B foil the badguys and ride the timestream back to their proper place...we/they see Superman holding dead Supergirl just like in Crisis On Infinite Earths #7!!! She's even wearing a headband!

Now, in JSA #72, the old farts beat the badguys and ride the timestream back their proper place, but not before Per Degaton makes an offhand comment about the Huntress being wiped away...and then whiile they're riding the t/s, Rip Hunter says, "There's a knot in the time stream...in 1985!"
And the Power Girl freaks out!

[pointed x-post, I'm guessing]