rolling Jericho calls The New Day trap queens 2016

*plays final fantasy theme on trumpet while dressed like a unicorn*

from the last thread:

Which is not to say I'd prefer that scenario--I'm very interested to see what they might do with the NJPW guys. I'm just saying that if they're worried about a lack of main-event wrestlers, springing for obscure broken-down thirtysomethings AJ Styles and Shinsuke Nakamura is a weird response

If we're talking about potential headliners for Mania in five years, then yeah, but if it's just about bringing guys in to freshen up the roster (which the WWE desperately needs) then great.

Yeah they aren't lacking potential WM headliners, they are severely lacking guys for them to fight in ppv main events between the big 4

Kane and Big Show have been in big fueds with Reigns, Wyatt, the Shield, Rollins, Cena, Bryan, Orton, Del Rio, Ziggler etc. in the past five years. They both started in the early-to-mid 90s.

what i really don't get is why they bothered with the bullet club tag team, nak and styles i get i guess? but anderson and gallows make it seem kinda overwhelmingly clear that this move is only to fuck w/ njpw and has nothing to do w/ making wwe stronger or something, idk.

only thing thatd make this cool imo is debut all 4 in the rumble, bullet club reforms, balor wins rumble or something, but a) they'd never do that and b) it wouldn't actually een be a good idea, 99% of fans would be like "what is happening and who is that man in makeup"

also, RIP shinsuke, your first name is going to first name heaven because you will merely be NAKAMURA now (if they even let u keep that... hope you won't be ichiro itami or whatever)

i wonder if this kind of raiding is good for the industry since it clears some of the top at NJPW and gives opportunities for other guys there to move into the title scene? i'm more concerned at the bottleneck at the WWE end where it seems like even between NXT and the main roster there are just too many athletes looking for an opportunity. you'd think that 3 hours of RAW (plus however long Smackdown and whatever happened to Main Event) would be plenty but clearly it's not.

i love the way that Chikara runs their tag team title scene where teams win points for victories (and lose them for losing) and once you've won 3 pts you get a title shot. that makes every tag match meaningful without having every match be a number one contender match or title match.

i don't see how it's good for anyone? njpw loses draws, wwe adds salary and probably misuses these guys to shit and never recoups that loss bc people don't stay tuned in for long enough to justify the raid, ppl continue to not pay attention to tna, etc. lose-lose-lose.

after watching styles-nakamura i just don't see how they're going to put nakamura on an episode of raw without neutering him to shit. there's no way he's bringing that knee with him. jesus it's brutal.

xp i need to get into chikara, the small amount i tried to watch was a little too aw shucks but i could get into it. plus chuck taylor is maybe my favourite wrestler atm (even though he's... retired? maybe?) and archibald peck seems amazing and he is apparently in a time-travel arc right now where he went forward in time to 2015 and was told he was killed in 2014 O_o

https://twitter.com/JohnCena/status/684920619247337474

shoulder surgery for cena holy shit yeah xp

at this rate nakamura's going to main event WM because he'll be the only one left

hey on the plus side maybe all these injuries will convince WWE to stop running these guys out for 4-5 high-impact matches a week HAHA JK pussy millennials and their surgeries, in my day we wrestled 8 matches a week and let me tell you those chin locks were difficult to pretend to get out of

Fuuuuuck biggest wrestlemania ever deffo gonna have a bomb threat and move to a 15000 seater cos of sgt slaughter killing cena in the name of syria and taking away yr guns and scottish golf courses leading to a main event of brock lesnar v. hornswaggle

new TEW game announced, fuckin' stoked.

Thats football manager for wrestling, right?

yeah exactly. and like FM it is intimidatingly complex at first view for anyone unfamiliar with the mechanics, but once you've got the hang of it the whole thing is like fantasy booking crack. the strength of the game lies in the massively dedicated modding community that exists around it, creating heaps of real-world mods with specific start dates.

Some of my fav saves of this previous version (TEW 2013) have included signing Shawn Michaels for WCW in 1996 and booking him as the NWO's third man, rebooking the Invasion properly with all the big name dudes, parachuting into the AWA in 1988 to try and save them from going under, bringing Vader into the WWF in 1994 and making him a major focal point of the company (complete with classic WM 11 main event vs Vader, running WCW from 1991 to try and turn them into a proper competitor for the WWF etc. etc. etc.

The best mod is always the 1983 one set immediately before WWF goes national (there's always one of these for every incarnation of the game, SUCH good fun taking over e.g. Portland and making them a national powerhouse). Also spent some time booking Bruno for the WWWF with an incredibly detailed mod that starts in 1970, which is just fucking nuts. It includes detailed biographies of all the wreatlers and companies, it's like playing through a history lesson.

* classic WM 11 main-event vs Bret Hart, that should've said.

basically i am nerding out about this. some ppl complain about how long it takes to play through these games, but tbh I can quite happily take things nice and easy booking a show or two each week. which is the same deal as FM i suppose, it can swallow your life if you let it, but it's nice to just have it on the backburner as something you think about at idle moments and play a match or two each evening

finally finished WK10. my review is SHUT THE FUCK UP MATT STRIKER

now i'm wondering what the main event picture's going to look like next year. assuming they won't do okada/tana again, who will it be? ibushi? naito, goto, shibata? kenny omega?

sike the actual answer is bryan danielson.

nakamura - styles to headline wrestlemania 32, cena - orton to headline wrestle kingdom 11.

i agree with stfu matt striker but i did enjoy the supreme awkwardness of him trying to squeeze more than a couple of words out of yoshi tatsu.

I never considered it but Orton and Sheamus in NJPW would find an answer to how actually make those two interesting. Well as long as they still dont wrestle each other. I'd really like to see wk11 headlined by Orton v Okada

Yeah there's a ton of guys in the WWE who'd be fucking magic in NJPW. Sheamus is a big one but I reckon the guy who would benefit most would be Barrett. That dude could absolutely main-event NJPW shows and put on great performances imo. Shame he's so crocked.

There are way too many vanilla foreigners in NJPW, so they stick most of them in the Bullet Club so they come across as bigger stars than they are. It would be so cool to see a real North American star tear through Japan ... has this even happened since the early 90's? Maybe Brock Lesnar as IWGP champion, but it wasn't done right, the company was terrible then.

But yeah, Okada vs Orton would be amazing, during their entrances, the entire ring might collapse under the weight of their combined arrogance and they wouldn't even get to do the match.

finally got round to watching the new episode of NXT, just hit the pre-match promos for the Womens' Battle Royal (I like this concept tbh, it's pleasingly similar to watching an old-school Royal Rumble) and maaaaan oh man, this girl Aaliyah / Nhooph / Nho Hope is just the worrst like why are they even letting her on tv at this stage, it is cruel and unkind and doesn't do anyone any favours at all

Alexa and Emma both have p. fucking great theme tunes imo

Eva Marie trolling the Full Sail crowd is the BEST, I won't go so far as to say that she is great, but that whole narrative that surrounds her now is GREAT

yeah after bayley got a good match out of her I've been thinking they should keep her there for a while, she feels like a part of the show now. which is such a bizarre turn of events. watch her get a huge face turn and become the top babyface of nxt

I'm sure that this isn't an original thought, but i've been watching a bunch of stuff on the Network from the first half of '93 in the last week or so, and it occurred to me while watching Bayley's promo on the latest NXT that she is basically the 2015/6 female NXT version of Bret Hart

in so far as, like Bret, she's not particularly engaging with a mic in her hand but she's just this pure good-guy/gal babyface who made the breakthrough at the bottom of a heap of already established stars (Hogan/Savage/Flair/Piper/Perfect, Paige/Charlotte/Sasha/Becky) who all vanished p. much immediately leaving Bret/Bayley to carry the show single-handed by dragging 3* matches out of whatever hunk o' junk was flavour of that particular month (early HBK/early Razor/Yokozuna, Eva Marie/Nia Jax/Carmella) by hook or by crook. and like Bret in '93, she's doing a fucking great job of it so far

this girl Aaliyah / Nhooph / Nho Hope is just the worrst like why are they even letting her on tv at this stage, it is cruel and unkind and doesn't do anyone any favours at all

In her promo segment she said something like "I'm making my NXT debut tonight, and what a way to debut than to win" (sic). So either that was the best take they got, or they're actually trying to make her come off kind of dumb. Bad news either way.

and that twirl she did

So AJ Styles just dropped the RevPro title at York Hall tonight. Imagine if the next time we saw him it was in the Royal Rumble! But nah, I think he'll be doing the same as Nakamura and popping into the Performance Center for his physical next month.

yeah after bayley got a good match out of her I've been thinking they should keep her there for a while

The match was heavily edited for TV, supposedly it was brutal live, so credit both to Bailey for making parts of it watchable as well as the people who edit NXT.

There's no point in wasting a potential difference maker like Styles in the Rumble this year, everyone other than Reigns, Lesnar and HHH (presumably) is going to come out of that match looking like the jobbiest jobbers of all time.

Yeah wouldnt want someone to make it exciting or do anything different. Only surprise entrances allowed are midcard fodder from the attitude era or commentators doing a *oh thats my music boy what a surprise* thing that gets less funny every year.

So AJ Styles just dropped the RevPro title at York Hall tonight. Imagine if the next time we saw him it was in the Royal Rumble! But nah, I think he'll be doing the same as Nakamura and popping into the Performance Center for his physical next month.

Did you go this? Was round the corner and had forgotten it was on til people in Regal merch started showing up in the pub

I didn't go because of January funds and lack of Nak this time out but still looked a good card

They hold it in bethnal green right? I always think i should book up and go after work and then never actually do so

Did you go this?

Nah, London's an expensive place to visit, even if it is a short flight from Dublin and I could crash on a couch for the night. But I've been to a RevPro show before, Liger/Devitt in the summer of 2013 and it was good fun. The venue's really showing its age but it's a great place to see wrestling.

coming up nxt week

http://rumblemetrics.blogspot.co.uk/

There is a dumb sketch backstage with Noble and Mercury talking about an app of some kind JESUS CHRIST SETH ROLLINS JUST THREW AN iPAD that is the most decadent thing I have ever seen.

haha i've found myself wishing on a number of occasions that this guy would write more, but then i suppose the fact that he doesn't write reviews on every wrestling show he's ever seen is kinda key to the appeal?

i remember reading somewhere (possibly somewhere that was linked here? i don't remember) that half of all wrestling writers are autistic number-obsessives and the other half are perpetually outraged man-children, or words to that effect, and it's basically otm. I mean are there any wrestling writers who are worth reading besides Meltzer? Meltzer, for all his faults (and they are legion) is at least uniquely equipped to provide insight into the major stories of the moment.

i quite like Brandon Stroud as it goes, and I enjoyed quite a lot of the Masked Man's book but on columns and podcasts he's just unbearably smug and uninteresting.

it sucks because i've read a ton of really interesting and informative books by e.g. Tim Hornbaker, but there's a massive gap in the market for interesting and insightful wrestling commentary on the net. which, like, "duh, no fucking kidding, why the hell would that be a surprise?" i suppose but even so, it seems a shame

maybe this is something that will change in the near-ish future? the demographics into the old pro-rass do seem to be shifting quite a lot at the moment.

*the demographics of people that are into the....

that should've said. lol complaining about the quality of other people's writing

I mean are there any wrestling writers who are worth reading besides Meltzer?

If you count him as a wrestling writer, Hyatte's mop-ups were hilarious and made watching Raw or Nitro pretty much unnecessary for a good while.

Also, for good commentary, I don't know, I like the Shake Them Ropes podcast but that could only be because they feel the same way as I do about wrestling (WWE) a lot of the time.

I enjoyed quite a lot of the Masked Man's book but on columns and podcasts he's just unbearably smug and uninteresting

So true, I have never understood why people like him so much.

Stroud is really entertaining despite his many strange quirks and biases.

I don't mind Shoemaker (the Masked Man) myself, I listen to his podcast Cheap Heat but I don't go there for deep analysis or anything, it's just three mates shooting the breeze.

tbf i don't want deep analysis of wrestling at all, that's not exactly what i was getting at (realise that my own poor choice of words may have let me down here, "insightful" probably wasn't a helpful adjective). if i wanted "analysis" of wrestling i'd be more inclined to start posting on one of the more serious pro-wres forums where they get quite into dissecting matches step-by-step and drawing up interminable lists and so on.

Shoemaker is fine when he's getting enthusiastic about some old Texas territories shit that he remembers from back in the day, just as Rosenberg is more bearable when he's talking about re-watching old episodes of Tuesday Night Titans and Prime Time Wrestling on the Network. But when it comes to their take on the current product I find that you can listen to 30 minutes of them recapping Raw or w/e without them saying anything remotely interesting or entertaining the entire time. It's just... nothing. Half an hour of Masked Man saying over and over again "I thought it was fine" and Rosenberg saying "I thought it was repug". Great. Especially as they both seem utterly convinced that they are the authorities on the subject. Blech.

I quite like Sam Roberts' podcast I suppose, he at least gets interesting dudes on in his interviews.

I don't disagree, it's a matter of taste with Cheap Heat I think - you either don't mind them not really having a point about what's currently going down despite their self-professed Authority, or it annoys the shit out of you. At the same time, I'm not one for the Meltzer-style deep analysis, either - I dig good work in the ring, but for me entertainment trumps 'workrate' every time. There's room for a middle ground, and I think Rob and Jeff on Shake Them Ropes cover that pretty well, they balance insight with a good-humoured approach to a subject some people take way too seriously for my liking. (Admittedly I didn't like their show the first time I heard it, took a couple of gos to sink in but I've got a decent commute so I can do a whole episode from A to B.)

Oh yeah, I agree completely, I'm absolutely not a workrate hound and I kinda don't get people who are. As you say, a technically great match in the service of entertainment is dandy, but not for its own sake. And bad wrestling isn't always (or even usually) a bad thing. The wrestlecrap is often most of the fun!

Meltzer's really good for his profiles and obituaries and for his general comments on the industry. I don't really get why people would sit down and trawl through his match reports though. The omnipresence of his star-ratings system across the net is also really pernicious and has kinda accidentally cut-off lots of potential alternative ways of looking at wrestling - "Yeah this was good but I'm gonna take off a quarter star for the blown tope" *farts*

Got a night to myself and ive so far watched the threeway from the rumble, ultima lucha 1 and now brock v roman from wm31.

Fuck me last yeat had the best matches. Ive not even done sasha banks or wk9 or whatever yet either.

Brock Lesnar really is the greatest pro wrestler ever. I could watch him slap Reigns a million times.

I think the rumble triple threat is in my top 3 matches ever though with punk-cena at mitb11 and idk austin-bret or something

Brock Lesnar vs Jumbo Tsuruta all-time #1 dream match

Jericho doesn't want Sheamus on his show because he's trying to keep it entertaining, but could have his mohawk on the show to explain why it makes Sheamus look so stupid. Del Rio takes the mic and brags on winning the biggest Rumble match in history. He says if someone deserves to be on The Highlight Reel, it's him. Jericho says Del Rio's name is Spanish for jackass. He's not having Del Rio on his show because he doesn't feel like it. Rusev calls Jericho an American reject. He says it's a Rumble every day in Bulgaria. Rusev goes on and gets the "what?" treatment. He's confident about one of them winning the Rumble. Jericho says he didn't understand a word Rusev said.

ten points to the first crowd that starts a MID-LIFE CRI-SIS chant

https://45.media.tumblr.com/46072f5ef3c555e29a8003cadd661ab2/tumblr_o16fcqCEi91rnjfjfo1_r1_400.gif

i can't work out if he's trolling the smart fans or if he's really drifted so far out of touch. as a heel turn it works! it's just a question of how they make it mean anything beyond him shitting on the usual guys

Jericho has to follow the same crappy script as everyone else. He could be out of touch or it could be the writers, there's no way to know.

Jericho on NXT could be awesome as the arrogant vet who wants to teach the young wrestlers about how he thinks things should be done, he understands NXT-style old school wrestling angles and could totally pull off that character. He also wouldn't mind putting young guys over.

Meltzer has always been partial to storyline and entertainment over spot by spot analysis of matches.

Half an hour of Masked Man saying over and over again "I thought it was fine"

Yeah, from what I've seen, he doesn't have anything interesting to say (no inspired rants etc.) asks terrible questions during interviews. His columns for Grantland read like a guy writing essays for a social science degree in wrestling, which wasn't interesting to me in the least and 90% of the time I completely disagreed with his premise.

i can't work out if he's trolling the smart fans or if he's really drifted so far out of touch.

this is the guy who brought us the list of 1004 holds and the ten-minute soaking-up-applause on his return last year (two years ago? i can't remember)... i have a feeling he knows exactly what he's doing. and it's wonderful

as much as i don't want kevin owens to team up with anyone because he shouldn't need to, jericho and owens in tandem might be magical. RAW IS JERICHOWENS.

side note

i like that a thread called "rolling Jericho calls The New Day trap queens 2016" now has a literally-rolling-Jericho-in-2016 gif

maybe i'm being worked but he seemed genuinely proud of rooty tooty booty on his podcast

+ he's spent the past however many centuries unironically dressing up like bon jovi, there has to be a PART of him that isn't self-aware or he's in it real deep

even if he is 100% self-aware, is his idea is to turn heel by taking a massive stinking shit all over an already unwatchable show every Monday night? i'm not sure that's any better tbh.

random unrelated thought: before he was kevin owens, kevin steen had a long and storied indie career and cycled through a few different finishers/signatures, including the Steenalizer (package fallaway powerbomb), the Steen Breaker (pumphandle neckbreaker), and the Package Piledriver, which he... did not call the Steendriver.

big hoos won the rights to that name in a czw light tube and barbed wire death match iirc

***crosses all fingers***

Plz god pat patterson sort it fucking out the past 2 years have been unacceptable and this has the potential to be the best rumble in over a decade

Do the new japan guys debut? Most likely just styles?

What happens with Reigns? Bray and fam? BORK MOYHERFUCKING LASER? HHH? Kofi has friends now, does he pogo on a trumpet? (Whisper it) Daniel Bryan? Any nxt call ups?

Id fucking love Reigns v. HhH to happen before the halfway mark, Brock v the Wyatt family and like a final four of Brock Aj Styles Daniel Bryan and fuck it one of new day.

I know it is ludicrous to dream but fuck it thinking about wrestling is well more fun than watching it these days

Like my fantasy booking daydream of wm32 main evented by Bork v. All of the New Day sometimes gets me through borinh days at work

Nakamura is still with NJPW until the end of the month. I still don't see the point in debuting Styles and having him get squashed by HHH or Reigns on his first night, but I'd say it's more likely to happen than not. Or maybe he does a run-in during the Owens/Ambrose match and it turns into a three way feud for the next couple of months? I could live with that.

yeah wasn't Nak wrestling for NJPW earlier today?

as has been noted, Reigns going out earlyish in the Rumble would be the best possible move here. Not through any fault of his own, it'd just be a very welcome sideways move that opens up a ton of exciting possibilities for the rest of the match. It won't happen though, there's no way they put all this build into the "One versus all" angle only to have Reigns fall at the first hurdle.

Don't really see any problem at all with debuting Styles here - it's TNA country so he ought to get a big superstar pop, always a good thing if you're introducing a new wrestler to the casual audience. Why does he have to get squashed by anyone? This is the Rumble, the best thing about it is that no one has to eat a pin or even get made to look weak, provided it's properly booked. It's not a zero-sum game between winning the thing outright and being made to look like a chump.

AJ comes in, gets his huge pop, has a long-ish run, does a bunch of cool moves, hits the Styles Clash a few times and gets a few big eliminations, eventually gets eliminated himself by someone semi-important (what's Sheamus doing right now?) to set up his first feud in the company - this is not rocket science.

I'm concerned that it's really gonna be as predictable as it looks on paper - the story is going to be all about Reigns going the distance and overcoming the odds. The League of Nations are going to make things difficult for him but he'll win through. The New Day will probably get a spot early on to do some comedy stuff. Lesnar will enter at some stage and fucking clean house, eventually to be eliminated by some combination of the Wyatt Family (probably all four of them). Triple H will return right at the death and get revenge on Reigns and take home the title. NXT guys will probably get a showing given they're in Orlando (AJ / Joe showdown would be cool but would Vince go for that? idk) This will probably all be totally watchable and fundamentally disappointing.

But whatever man, it's the fucking Rumble, it's up there with Mania as arguably the best and most exciting night of the wrestling year. I'm always gonna be hyped for a Royal Rumble. Prepared to be a little letdown by the booking of it, but I'm hoping that there's an unexpected injury return or two thrown in, there's a lot of confused information out there about who's out for how long.

Plz god pat patterson sort it fucking out the past 2 years have been unacceptable and this has the potential to be the best rumble in over a decade

THIS. I just want to be surprised and entertained. The last few years have been neither surprising (oh look multiple skin-the-cat spots and Kofi Kingston don't-step-on-the-lava jollies) nor entertaining (I feel like the crowd turned on at least the last two years, the mood's just been bad).

I'm not holding my breath for AJ to debut tonight. Nakamura's still working in New Japan till next weekend and he's due a physical at the Performance Center next month before anything happens there, as is standard. Let's relax and cheer for an NXTer like Finn Balor or someone like that if they deign to give them a spot.

As you said, there are plenty of things that could be done with Styles but in all likelihood the story of the Rumble will be Roman Reigns (and maybe HHH) grunting a lot and making everyone else in the ring (except for Lesnar) look like chumps. I think he's better off going the Kevin Owens route where he shows up on RAW, challenges a top guy, and gets to do all his stuff in a long match on PPV.

I don't see the purpose of eliminating Reigns early -- the longer he's in, the more the drama builds, it means more when he's eventually eliminated.

nah the early Reigns elimination is just some fantasy booking shit, it'll never happen. they've been very up front about the story they're going to tell here. don't agree that the drama will build the longer he's in though, that's exactly what everyone expects to happen. if he were to go out after 25 mins or so i think the intrigue levels as to what happens next go through the roof. but yeah w/e, not happening.

tbh i think the best way to make this "Reigns vs the world" story work would be to have Lesnar come out at #2 and stay with Reigns the whole way through. there's some fucking high stakes jeopardy for you, none of that artificial Kane / Big Show bullshit. actually give the guy some odds to overcome.

in other words, don't make "Reigns dominates" the story of a third consecutive Rumble. run with "Lesnar dominates and Reigns is barely surviving".

Eliminating reigns (and hhh) would create the most suspense because they are far and beyond the favourites to win. Then it gets opened WIDE UP. Not likely to happen though.

I really am not excited to watch Reigns hug a corner or bottom rope for 10 minuted at a time. In fact im really bored of the 'guy goes long' narrative for a while. Punk's last night was especially bad viewing, he was in for like an hour and only actually worked for about 3 minutes.

Does Taker turn up?

What the fuck is wm gonna be?

I think its the open question that excites me. Sure i know they can realky fuck it up with ease (only match more boring than taker-kane is taker-sheamus folks... fuck me that though just depressed me) but what if they actually did the bestest wm ever? No orton, so a brother can dream

all I want is a kofi win is that too much to ask

I was going to put a bet on the Rumble but then I saw the odds for Triple H and I was like, screw that.

Feel like "smashing through the barricade into the timekeeper's area" spots are a little passe but that bowling ball from Owens was tight

Francesca II!!

one of those pretty damn good usos matches

yeah this has been a great show so far. i can't decide who i love more out of Xavier and Big E

i am not usually at all into that spot where a guy wrestler grabs a girl wrestler and kisses her against her will, but all the same, god bless you Ric Flair you crazy old bastard

oh shit that pop for THE BOSS

face Becky, heel Charlotte, TWEENER Sasha, all with reasons for fighting each other, fighting over a title belt, getting PPV time and promo packages, awesome awesome awesome awesome why haven't they been doing this all along?

ok the finish to that match was dumb as shit, i will forgive it because post-match shenanigans were the best

this PPV is one good Rumble match away from being a very very good show indeed imo

this Edge and Christian show looks awful

pretty savage boos for Roman right out the gate. this is gonna be FUN!

we have a Styles sighting! and that was a MEGA POP!

clever having KO eliminate styles.

yeah, they used Owens very well tonight.

i could watch Brock Lesnar run around hitting jumping knee strikes on bigass dudes forever

good job Lesnar's in this, it's gone a bit flat, you can see the last few guys coming a mile away, Wyatt and Sheamus will be here soon

ha so yeah

the story is going to be all about Reigns going the distance and overcoming the odds. The League of Nations are going to make things difficult for him but he'll win through. The New Day will probably get a spot early on to do some comedy stuff. Lesnar will enter at some stage and fucking clean house, eventually to be eliminated by some combination of the Wyatt Family (probably all four of them). Triple H will return right at the death and get revenge on Reigns and take home the title. NXT guys will probably get a showing given they're in Orlando

they've actually done everything that everyone's been predicted for weeks.

it's been a really great Rumble! just a shitty main story. how on earth does taking Reigns to the back for the majority of the match make him look like a deserving good-guy champ?! Kevin Owens could barely walk and he stumbled out to give it his best

Hunter got his eyes on those 16 title reigns

Behold the King, the King of Kings!

Thanks for coming, everyone.

aside from kalisto consuming the soul of sin cara the undercard was great, rumble was fun until the wyatts eliminated everybody and grim inevitability set in. maybe picking holes in wrestling logic is a fool's errand, but the two determining factors for the rumble matchup were pretty annoying - if it's been established that you can hang around outside the ring for as long as you want, why not do that? and if it's been established that you can help your buddies beat up and eliminate their enemies whether you're (still) in the match or not, why not do that?

that was exciting at the end there, but fuck

i know wrestling is dumb but vince mcmahon should probably know to tell his lackeys to actually formally eliminate roman from the match

also they need to stop calling him the boss, that's gimmick infringement

xp

tbh there should be countouts in battle royals

that was booked a zillion times better than last year though, except yeah the main story

Yeah, the Rumble had lots of fun stuff in it (Lesnar had a great run of suplexes on huge guys, not to mention those awesomely scary flying knees on Strowman), but the main angle didn't make sense either in or out of storyline.

In-storyline, it makes no sense that the League of Nations didn't eliminate Reigns after they beat him up, and that none of the other participants in the match dragged him in to throw him out either. And it's also weird that Reigns didn't just get back into the ring after HHH eliminated him to help his friend Dean Ambrose win the title. Why play fair against the guy who abused his power to take you out of the match, and put himself in it at the easiest possible position? Why not get in there with your ex-Shield comrade and do some teamwork, which is what you made your name on in the first place?

They could have still had the same result, even--just have Reigns come back in, which brings the LoN back in, so now it's 4-on-2 (5 if Barrett is back there somewhere) and HHH still wins. But that way at least Roman tried! Sometimes WWE seems to have this strange idea that, outside of tag matches, only heels should help each other.

Out of storyline, it's odd that they had Reigns sit out so much of the match in the back. That seems counterproductive if they're really trying to get the crowd on his side. I could see that sort of approach working with an underdog type, but Reigns is not Sami Zayn.

They're trying to have Reigns be a face, aren't they? So I guess I can understand why they didn't have him come back in to help Dean, since that would be "unfair" or whatever.
It's still bullshit, though.

AJ Styles and Sami Zayn got more chants than Reigns in his home state.

lol that was the best rumble in years and yet they still have no fucking clue with roman.

its like they are intentionally messing up every bit of story or interaction he does. really reminded me of summerslam when the fans chanted about roman being asleep.

i love sasha banks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8FrpWIWj9o

gr8 song

aw man that was fucking sweet. when given something good to work with, styles can be so great. if he is against say owens & ambrose for the next couple months, it'll be some beautiful viewing.

Styles Clash is going to be interesting, p. much everyone he tried it against looked way too big. So glad they haven't fucked with him though - the name, the look, the gimmick, the finisher - they've basically just parachuted the 2015 wrestler of the year into their main-event scene - I like this strategy! Also that song is dope

it's been a really great Rumble! just a shitty main story. how on earth does taking Reigns to the back for the majority of the match make him look like a deserving good-guy champ?!

This was exactly the thought in this house while watching it. Reigns basically sat out all the difficult opponents - Show, Henry, BROCK - and ran back out half an hour later when the pickings were easier. That's a chickenshit heel move, through and through. But looking at the way Cena's been handled for years, WWE doesn't know how to book a top face anymore.

(Difficult in battle royal terms, obv - not easy throwing those big fellas over the top rope.)

But looking at the way Cena's been handled for years, WWE doesn't know how to book a top face anymore.

tbf Vince has always had a funny way of booking his top face. Hulk Hogan essentially worked heel while being presented as a face throughout his entire run on top and look at how well that worked for them. he was always cheating in his matches, acting like a spoilt child throwing a tantrum when Sid eliminated from the 92 Rumble etc. etc.

i don't see any great inconsistency between Hogan's dickishness, Michaels', Cena's and now Reigns'. Vince is an immature prick, can't help but book his top face to also be an immature prick.

That's fair, I didn't think back far enough - Hogan was a terrible cheat, but you don't really dwell on that stuff when you're 11 years old, you just think the Ultimate Warrior is cooler.

pretty entertaining show top to bottom even though the finish they were working towards was what everyone expected - the Rumble at least felt fun and smartly booked to elicit "good" sympathetic disappointment at the eliminations, rather than another triumphant return to Botchamania for King Boo

some of the interference logic was kind of screwy though yes, above all else I can't buy Rampaging Blood God Lesnar getting cheated out of the match and slowly shuffling away crestfallen while the sad Charlie Brown piano plays, surely he should have overturned the ring with everyone in it

Also Bray being too crazy to not try and take HHH down for fun is a far more interesting direction for him at this point than another feud where him and his buddies ruin the matches of a guy the crowd likes watching, before getting decisively beaten by him

speaking of interference: it got lost in the shuffle after he got taken out for the majority of the match, but for some reason roman kept attacking guys who were on the verge of taking someone else out?

yay wwe babyfaces

Best Rumble (and Rumble undercard) in years. Ambrose is the MAN for going 20 minutes in a war with Owens, and then lasting 30 minutes in the Rumble itself and almost winning.

They did a good job at setting up future matches, but yeah, so many storylines make no sense at all. Lesnar went apeshit and got "suspended" after getting screwed out of the title at the last WM, here he gets screwed out of the title again by the Wyatts and he just walks off like a sad panda? And Reigns taking a half hour break in the middle of the match made him an even bigger heel than he already was.

HOLY SHIT that pop for Styles' entrance. I seriously don't know how much longer they can keep pretending that Reigns is the guy to carry the company when guys like Ambrose and Styles are getting the reactions they're getting.

with the camera oddly focused on Roman's reaction I actually thought there was some atmospheric loud buzzing noise as part of the entrance theme and then it cut straight to him on the ramp like whoaahh

everyone knew it probably had to be tonight or tomorrow but even so, it's so weird/nice to see a 90s style Big Debut where the guy's reputation, name and the resultant surreal vibe of it all are intact

can they pull off a Nakamura debut that does him justice?

was hoping owens would take back the IC title so he'd have something to fight sami over at WM (darn), now that dean kept it i sincerely hope he keeps it for the majority of the year and defends it regularly, before finally going up to WHC tier. 90s style.

also at some point brock has to stop getting distracted by supernatural shit and demand a WHC match. they can only keep him from it for so long.

hhh unbuttoning his jacket to show the belt was boss

lot of good matches tnite. aj styles v jericho was great. becky v sasha was great. kevin owens v ziggler was great.

i feel like botchamania etc. is going to get a lot of mileage out of vince starting raw with saying "i confess i love that you are all miserable". is that why the show sucks so regularly?

can't argue with those heel tactics.

Reigns basically sat out all the difficult opponents - Show, Henry, BROCK

yeah it's amazing that after the buildup we didn't even get to see roman and brock in the ring together

can they pull off a Nakamura debut that does him justice?

Nobody knows who Shinsuke Nakamura is. I love him too, but come on, let's be realistic about this. He's going to NXT after his physical, if he really is WWE-bound, and getting the Balor treatment at best. And there's nothing wrong with that.

yeah it's amazing that after the buildup we didn't even get to see roman and brock in the ring together

I feel like that was deliberate, like their booking plans have either moved beyond their feud (so they didn't want them rekindling anything in the Rumble), or they have something sketched out for further down the line (so they didn't want to pull the trigger on Sunday). Either way, their execution of it sucked.

why would the authority spend all this time stripping roman of the belt only to put him in a qualifying match to face HHH for the championship? like i understand they want roman to be the heavyweight champion but surely there's a way to orchestrate it that doesn't require stephanie being an idiot?

Yeah that doesn't make any sense. There's a conflict between the 'we need to screw him' idea in the Austin-McMahon dynamic they're fixated on, and the 'oh shit he needs to be in title contention or the kids won't buy it' thing. Makes everyone involved look like a sap.

Also, disregard my theory above about keeping Reigns and Brock separate, 'cause they've only gone and booked them in a triple threat at Fastlane.

what could save reigns at this point? obv they want to, and obv they need to. only thing i can imagine working his him withdrawing from competition for a bit only to return in a sting-like role (possibly w/ sting)

reform The Shield. not kidding.

they should stop trying to make heavyweight champion reigns happen and give him some time fighting over one of the other belts. they have plenty of wrestlers who could realistically hold the heavyweight belt at the moment, it doesn't need to be the one guy the fans have turned on.

u may have missed this (i did):

https://youtu.be/4XUSva8muAU

There's a conflict between the 'we need to screw him' idea in the Austin-McMahon dynamic they're fixated on, and the 'oh shit he needs to be in title contention or the kids won't buy it' thing.

Both can be "best for business" at different times. See, it's simple!

A Shield reunion would be awesome, but Reigns needs a character makeover if he's going to be a top guy. Randy Orton needed four years to figure out the "viper" character after his first (failed) main event run with the title. Until he got there, he was tweaking his Evolution "legend killer" character and it wasn't working, at least not at the level that they wanted him to be at.

i think the character problem is he's just branded as the shield

No, Reigns' biggest character problem is that he's just not a natural babyface.

His charisma, as much as he has it, is kinda sleazy. Just look at him whenever he's interviewed by Renee Young or Jojo or whoever backstage: he can't help that bedroom eyes look, great for a heel but not for the virtuous hero he's being portrayed as.

It goes without saying that he's a terrible promo. He's just doing what he's told, but...

And yet, as I heard or read somewhere recently, I agree that he's quite charismatic in the ring. Limited moveset aside, he can hold his own and look like he belongs there, so it's easy to understand why people feel like they can get behind him. But then all the rest comes back to mind and...

fuck wwe it's lucha time

do u get the el ray network?

SHINSUKE NAKAMURA VS SAMI ZAYN AT NXT TAKEOVER DALLAS

Seriously WrestleMania could be a steaming pile and it wouldn't matter because the only show that matters is on two days before.

woooow <3 v excited

(Since they've booked the match, I assume he's already had his WWE physical.)

no but it'll show up on watchwrestling soon enough

or i'll just sign up for sling

xp

holy shit sling is so bad! 1

and a 2 and a

No, Reigns' biggest character problem is that he's just not a natural babyface.
― wronger than 100 geir posts (MacDara), Wednesday, January 27, 2016 5:27 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I recently saw this old NXT interview of his, which is stilted in a typical WWE way, but lends some support to what you're saying. This seems like a more natural role for him (at least promo-wise).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pbS7iCMxn0

That video is great, he just exudes heel. The kid-favourite thing just doesn't come naturally to him (those robotic pieces-to-camera he did for that Be A Star thing or whatever it was a few months ago are AWFUL).

Let's face it, if Dean Ambrose were more physically imposing, he'd be the top face and Reigns would be a solid upper-mid-card, flirting-with-the-main-event bully. He's an exciting, chaotic element; fans of all stripes are behind him. He is trying so hard, god bless him, but Vince and Dunn's biases are the singular barrier to his advancement.

Not that I can't see logic in the big-man thinking, but when I think about it, the triple threat at Fastlane will be interesting - how will Ambrose fare against Brock, impression-wise?

Lucha Undeground is back on tv and Shinsuke Nakamura AND Austin Aries are coming to NXT in a month or two. Makes it so much easier not to care about the whole Roman Reigns thing :)

I watched Nakamura's last match for NJPW. I expected that he'd get pinned on the way out or CHAOS would turn on him. Kenny Omega came out and Tanahashi officially challenged him to fight for the vacant IC championship, but otherwise there were no convoluted angles, just a simple, classy send off for Nak. Everyone in CHAOS came into the ring and posed for a group shot. Nak and Okada were openly crying, and Yano looked really shaken up.

btw Ishii pinned Shibata to set up their next match, Goto was the biggest heel in the building and everything he did got booed. Nakamura and Tanahashi didn't do too much, Ishii and Shibata did all the heavy lifting in the match. Goto is normally a charisma sinkhole, but he's gotten way more interesting by heeling it up over the past month.

hi guys

Hey!

Hello!

Whats a maura think about wrestling?

Zayn v. Nakamura has the potential to be the biggest match during Wrestlemania Weekend, though it makes me concerned that they won't put the NXT belt back on Sami (since I'm seriously hoping for him to be the first two-time NXT champ). Definitely will probably be the best match, considering I'm sure it'll be Trips v. Roman at Mania for the WWE Belt.
I was really excited for Mania until Rumble happened. At least NXT is about to blow up; Takeover: Dallas is probably going to be excellent in all the ways I was hoping Mania was going to be.

both of the other 2 possible wrestlemania main events - lesnar/hhh or ambrose/hhh - are more interesting to me

hi maura!

i'm much more casual in my fandom than probably anyone here but i really am hoping that ambrose will get his shot

Speaking of Ambrose--are they really calling his rebound lariat the "Wacky Line"? (Michael Cole called it that at the Rumble, and apparently at least once on Raw, too.) Where does that phrase even come from?

Omg pat patterson is releasing an autobiohraphy

Godd yeah the fuckin' Wacky Liner. Ambrose maybe the most egregious current example of the WWE taking a dude with tremendous upside and fucking them into oblivion with nonsense character shit designed to appeal to idiots. He's really good but he should be amazing. And get rid of those goddamn jeans ffs

Pat Patterson autobio should be fascinating, even with the obligatory WWE official censorship. I mean it'll obviously be missing all the juiciest shit but at the very least it ought to be really interesting when it comes to all of his booking insights

I love Ambrose too. How can you not? He's got an unmistakable ring presence, plus he's the chaotic face the company really needs for that Austin-McMahon dynamic they've been trying so hard to shoehorn Reigns into. Still, my casual fan SO doesn't buy him as a good guy, thinks he's a more natural heel (and I don't necessarily disagree, he was great as the mouthpiece of the Shield). I'm hoping we'll see things develop further when Rollins returns.

Really hate that 'wacky line' thing, though. Ambrose isn't wacky, he's not fuckin' Jerry Lewis!

Ambrose seems like one of those people whose face/heel alignment should be taken entirely case-by-case based on who he's feuding with. Like if you get on his bad side, he'll make sure you regret it, and anyone can get on his bad side at moment's notice because he's nuts.

So if he's feuding with a face you like then you hate him, but when he turns his attention to a heel you hate, you get excited to see how he's going to make the guy miserable. Meanwhile neither his essential character nor his tactics change.

In this hypothetical version of him, his tactics do not ever involved a briefcase rigged to shoot Nickelodeon slime.

Dirty Dean is great, and I totally agree with JRN; his face/heel status is pretty dependent on who he's currently against. He was a great heel "leader" of The SHIELD, he's a good anti-hero face against The Authority currently and he's great against Kevin Owens, who is probably my favorite heel on the main roster.

I was so sure they were calling his rebound lariat "the lunatic's fringe" or something like that. I swear I've heard it called that at least once. Wacky Line sounds like a move from Doink the Clown or Hornswoggle or some other comedy character. I don't know when they're going to pull the trigger and just let Dean off the chain, so to speak. There's so much that they could do with him that they're saving for, seemingly, everyone else.

maybe cole keeps calling it that in an attempt to get him to stop doing it

Mad challops: Ambrose suckz.

He used to be great. But fuck me he is way worse than Roman and the internet needs to belieee dat.

Naaahhh c'mon now - firstly, you are rong as can be!; secondly, I have seen this view espoused in numerous places recently, cannot allow the self-proclamation of challops in this instance.

I will make a concession - his offence suckz. The rebound "lariat" (it's not a lariat but fuck calling it a Wacky Line tbh), the diving push, even the Dirty Deeds - it is all basically terrible and that is something that he needs to work out before he can be a top guy. But that's fine y'know, I mean CM Punk had got some of the shittiest offence known to man and look how far he got.

But aside from that, most everything else that is wrong with the guy right now is the fault of the writing/booking team imo. He is one of the most interesting and naturally charismatic performers they have - he cuts great promos and, like Kevin Owens, he also has the "intangibles" in the ring - the mannerisms, the facial expressions (when he isn't doing that stupid gurning thing in aid of this stupid fckin character), the ability to tell a story through movement and selling.

They just aren't let him do any of this stuff properly because it's all being suborned right now in service of the fckin "Lunatic Fringe" wacky madman angle. Soooo dumb, if they booked him right (imo something more akin to early Stone Cold / Loose Cannon Brian Pillman would be right - craziness manifests as menace and aggression rather than fckin "hilarious" "pranks") I think he could go a loooong way for them.

As for "way worse than Roman" , well sure, but then so are most guys. I will refrain posting another lengthy screed about naturally talented dudes being shafted by "creative", whatever that means, but only because it's too early in the morning. Roman is great, his booking sucks, and on and on it goes

Also it's been mentioned before but is there a more pernicious spot in wrestling today than what they try and pass off as a suicide dive now - the aforementioned "diving push"?

Like, I'm not saying we need to go back to the days of Jericho plugging Benoit in the skull with an unprotected chair shot as he flew head-first out of the ring (this was an amazing spot btw and i wonder if the fact that i can watch it without the slightest queasiness is an indictment of my humanity? idk), but this diving push thing looks absolutely awful and they're using it in every single match now.

A suicide dive used to be up there with the shooting star press as the coolest spot in wrestling and you're ruining it, you fucks! It's not even a case of "if you're not going to do it properly, don't do it at all" (it's partly that), more just, like, stop doing the same shitty spots in every fckin match! jeez. thanks a lot Daniel Bryan.

suicide dive is still the coolest spot in wrestling when it's done in a temple and called the arrow from the depths of hell

yeh king cuerno looks like he could take down a brick wall with that thing.

i liked ambrose's old dirty deeds, a mystery why they changed it to a routine double-underhook ddt (maybe it was seen as too much of a neck bump?). i'm not sure that limp offence really matters in wwe (cena's done alright for someone whose entire moveset looks terrible), but what does annoy me is that offence that should have just been part of ambrose's unpredictable character has just become schtick. this guy did an elbow drop onto a standing opponent and a weird bounce off the middle rope into a clothesline, he's so crazy! oh, he's done that twice every match for the last year? hm.

the wacky line was terrible before it was called the wacky line. the only way to make it work is if he can figure out how to consistently do it "outta nowhere"

that fenix corkscrew splash to the outside of the ring in the first ep of this season was O_O i watched it over and over

I am bored of it being creative sucks. Kevin owens is booked by the same people, like sheamus was being booked by the same people as bryan. Anything i used to like about ambrose has been stripped away, hell the one thing i do like still sucks (cos of booking here i presume- that hes like romans drinking buddy but cant come help when hes outnumbered? Gr8 friend).

Also ziggler and the usos ruined all spots, not just the suicide dive. Why is any move bar lesnars suplexes worth any damn when THE guy of the past twenty years superkick finisher now gets used 17 times a minute?

I am bored of it being creative sucks. Kevin owens is booked by the same people, like sheamus was being booked by the same people as bryan.

ah here now, that's not any kind of argument at all. what are we saying then, that booking/writing one dude well leads to the logical end-point that they must also be booking/writing everyone else well? Kevin Owens is not awesome because he's booked to be awesome (this hasn't been the case since he initially burst onto the scene vs Cena imo), he's awesome because his talent is so extravagant that he overcomes the mediocre 50/50 booking that they continually attempt to level him with. it is easier for him to work around the writing than certain others, Ambrose amongst them, bcuz he is not lumbered with a ridiculous character that he then has to try and get over, they've pretty much just left him alone.

perhaps it is all invented dirt-sheet hack-rag bullshit but i am inclined to believe the recent stories stating that originally the Royal Rumble deal was gonna be for Ambrose to toss out Owens and Styles himself, and it was Owens that pushed to get this changed to what we eventually saw on the show. encouraging if true to know that he has the balls to stand up to whoever it is coming up with the original ideas (as did the Shield in days gone by, which by all accounts was essential to them getting over to the extent they did) and also that he has enough cachet now with the "powers that be" that they'll take his suggestions on board.

these are murky waters tbf, we need to be careful how words like "creative" and "booking" are thrown around (and i include myself in this). if by "booking" we mean how strong they are made to look then Ambrose rn is doing fine, he's winning matches and getting loads of tv and ppv time in important spots. but the way they are writing the character is hideous and is totally preventing him from hitting the heights that he could

Also ziggler and the usos ruined all spots

Ziggler is an interesting case. He was extremely over with a certain kind of fan for a very long time and it seems like that good-will has just evaporated. Is it a staleness thing, after nearly 7 years of the same act? Is it that the fans got bored of waiting for the company to pull the trigger on a guy who spent so long on the cusp of bigger things? Is it that he came through in a period where shit was actually p. fuckin dire for the fans from a smarky in-ring perspective and that the subsequent rise of NXT and the emergence of Bryan, Rollins, Owens, Neville, Balor etc. has made him obsolete?

idk, probably all of those. but possibly more than anyone i think Dolph would benefit from taking a year-long sabbatical to go and work some things out and let everyone forget about him for a while

can we talk more about lucha underground? the Ivelisse / Mil Muertes title match last week was perfectly executed and i loved the Puma / Pentagon Jr tag situation this week (and the weirdness of Vampiro commenting on Pentagon Jr). also the anecdotes/storytelling is so wonderfully stylized. oh, and now justin gabriel is in the promotion! (his fight w Mack was wonderful - i love Mack since i watched his falls count anywhere match w/ Cage at Ultima Lucha - just brutal)

It really is nuts how overused certain moves are. I remember back when seeing any kind of dive to the outside on TV was kind of a special thing--WCW cruiserweights would do it sometimes, and that was basically it. Now there are about five on every episode of Raw.

And by my count the WWE roster currently has no fewer than SIX wrestlers regularly doing some version of the superkick: ADR, Kevin Owens, Ziggler, Rusev, and both Usos. IIRC Luke Harper does it sometimes too.

I sometimes fantasize about being some backstage big shot in WWE and issuing directives about movesets and other recurring match tropes. Ambrose is now allowed to do the rebound lariat on TV once every four months, maximum. Only one wrestler is allowed to use the superkick (draw straws for it or something). Finisher kickouts are banned for one year. Etc.

Sami Zayns finisher is a kick too

but it's not a superkick, it's a hell-OOVA kick. why do they pronounce "helluva" like that? to make it sound more like "yakuza"?

idk superkick inflation is out of control now, just let everyone do superkicks, it's not a finisher in 2016

i've never understood the insistence that other people's finishers should always be finishers. in kayfabe, if ziggler can't get a pinfall from a superkick, it's because he just isn't as good at it as hbk. sweet chin music is a superkick but a superkick isn't sweet chin music.

I always assumed the helluva pronunciation was just cheekiness

xpost

idk superkick inflation is out of control now, just let everyone do superkicks, it's not a finisher in 2016

yeah and that isn't a problem at all unless you're a full-on old-skool nut like Jim Cornette or Stone Cold Steve Austin, time was back in the '70s that a regular run-of-the-mill clothesline was enough to finish all but the very biggest matches***, these things change. it's like Jake Roberts' DDT or Harley Race's vertical suplex, moves don't stay protected forever. As long as there are some protected moves that are sold more than others I think we'll be ok. but if you've got a special gripe wrt to super-kicks, take it up w/ the Young Bucks imo

***wait wait what do you mean that NJPW's top star finishes all his matches with a clothesline?!!?!?!?)

bull dempsey apparently done at wwe

louis and lefort gone too. I actually liked louis's bald bond villain gimmick

To be clear, my problem is that the superkick isn't treated like a finisher. That's fine. It's just that a move loses some of its impact if it's being done all over the place by every other wrestler on the show. And unlike, say, a hip toss, a superkick looks like a move that should do real damage, so it's more of a shame if the audience gets at all desensitized to it.

Plus I generally think diversity in movesets helps wrestlers establish distinctive styles, which makes everything more interesting.

I actually do feel similarly about clotheslines. I've always like how the lariat is treated as an upper-tier move in Japan. (And it actually bothers me a little that for as long as I've been watching wrestling, close-fist punches to the head have been treated as no big deal. But that's REALLY a lost cause.)

JRN otm.

I get that Michaels was a special entity on himself. But fuck me what move actually means anything? Cos what is wrong with Michaels just fucking kicking you in the face, or Okada lariating you in the face, or Lesnar throwing you like a motherfucker and it MEANING something? If everyone does every move its just like yeah whatever. Sami Zayn's finisher isn't just the helluva kick, cos he needs to suplex you first into a turnbuckle to get you all fucked up first. Idk, maybe dudes should think about *why* a bit more. Cos I love the Young Bucks moveset but the Usos can get fucked, cos at least I feel like the Young Bucks understand their superkick partyyyy.

Er, my last post should start "To be clear, my problem ISN'T that the superkick isn't treated like a finisher." Kind of a bummer to start a sentence with "to be clear" and then immediately assert the opposite of what I think.

U started writing a big old response on my phone about protected moves but instead deleted it and decided to say: rainmaker is so much more than a lariat. The twist. The flip. It's like a violent tango. I love the rainmaker.

I*

Is it that he came through in a period where shit was actually p. fuckin dire for the fans from a smarky in-ring perspective and that the subsequent rise of NXT and the emergence of Bryan, Rollins, Owens, Neville, Balor etc. has made him obsolete?

This. He was a guy they could plug into a main event once in a while for a change of pace, but once better and fresher guys made the roster, he was done at the top of the card. That's not to say that he couldn't have been programmed as a main event guy with the right push behind him -- he could have easily done Rollins' part as the Authority's chosen one.

Ambrose's moveset is fine for the role he has as the plucky IC champ. Maybe that's why the WWE doesn't see him as a main event guy. Then again, their top star of the last decade uses a glorified fireman's carry as a finisher, and the NXT women's champion finishes matches with a belly to belly suplex, which hadn't been used as a credible finisher since the 90's. Point being, if you put a move over, it's gets over.

I've been trying to avoid NXT spoilers, but it's all but impossible. The card at Takeover:Dallas is going to crush whatever they manage to scrape together for Mania.

i feel that there was a chance to capitalise on ziggler after he was the survivor series sole survivor but then they did... whatever the absolute opposite of capitalising is

wasn't that meant to be Roman's spot as well? I thought Ziggler was just shoved in there as a body, they clearly didn't have any intention of using him properly

forever and always

http://www.angelfire.com/wrestling3/kotdm15/listsleeze.html

Gary Hart busted the Tommy Rich 'story' in his book; it was just common-or-garden homophobia in his view.

a good third of those seem like common-or-garden homophobia...

Oh yeah, quite a few are racist or sexist too. It just fascinates me that wrestling was once a collection of the craziest, drug addled psychopathic bodybuilders in modern history.

Yeah I only read the first few and I was like 'blah'. I much prefer stories like The Ryback popping a Cialis to impress Brock Lesnar.

bryan's retired :'''''(

:(

i'm with ahoyboy on that urban myths thing btw, of course you've gotta allow for a lot of tedious gay-bashing bullshit, it was compiled on a wrestling forum! but beyond that, a lot of that stuff is just what wrestling is!

the pre-modern days of pro-rasslin' when it was this collection of assorted oddballs and dead-end weirdos who'd kind of fallen into this bizarre lifestyle after getting out of jail or not making it as smalltime crooks or nightclub bouncers or w/e, the rapacious sleaziness and dishonesty and backstabbing and tragedy - all of this shit is basically what makes the industry so fascinating!

i would definitely be interested in reading some serious scholarly work on the fucked up history of pro-rasslin'

surprising myself with how put out that Danielson news makes me, i'm not normally at all bothered by retirements or like, celebrity deaths or whatever. i've been toying with the idea of watching the entire Danielson-McGuinness feud from start to finish.

is there any wrestler of his status and ability more entirely and justifiably beloved than Bryan Danielson? like ever? Eddie, perhaps? I was thinking about Bret but even Bret, as much as I love him, has got a few too many homophobic/womanising black marks on his record to qualify.

Owen was amazing obv. but for all his brilliance he was never at the level that Bryan is/was

I will wait till i've seen Raw to say anything because lol its wrestling and everyones injured, but yeah it seems likely to be true and really sucks. He was the greatest professional wrestler, I loved everything he did and to see his true peak at the top of the mountain end with two terribly timed injuries really is unfortunate.

probably isn't but bryan's announcement could be a work?

just hoping it's retiring from WWE and not from wrestling

(which is sort of selfishly what i was hoping for anyway)

to the extent that in wrestling everything might always be a work, sure, but it feels legit. ESPN appearance booked in with the Coachman, Meltzer reporting that this has been prompted by some recent (pre-Rumble) brain scans that are not looking what they should be for a healthy 34 year old guy and so on :(((((

i mean obviously it'd be sweet if at the climatic moment of his big retirement speech, just as everyone is bursting into floods of tears, Sheamus jumps into the ring and kicks him in the face or sthing to FINALLY set up the Wrestlemania match that they were destined never too have, but yeah. i don't think so this time, would love to be proved wrong

xpost to qualx - if his brains really are scrambled then i think it'd probably be better if he didn't go off to New Japan to let Okada hit him in the head real hard or w/e

i'm inclined to believe him (and meltzer etc) when he says he's been cleared by everyone except maroon. hopefully he'd stop taking head shots but i don't think you can keep him away from wrestling if that's his choice right now

i'm just hoping this doesn't result in a nasty lawsuit with WWE because of their non-compete bullshit

but aside from that, i think he's had a very good career in WWE but this whole saga makes me uneasy and even if he did come back to wrestle, we'd all just be waiting for them to shut him down again

Yeah, as incredible as it would be for WWE to pull a fast one on the fans AND the media with this, I think it's for real, and for the best. For his sake, I hope Bryan retires and stays retired. (Although I'm afraid it may take some contract maneuvering on WWE's part to get him to stick to that second bit.)

If he does retire tonight as expected, I wonder what effect this might have on the broader culture of pro wrestling. Will it motivate some ambitious indie wrestlers to tone down their style, for fear of being forced into retirement in what should have been their prime?* Will it move WWE to tone down the increasingly high-spot-driven house style that's been developing over the past few years, thanks in part to guys like DB? Will we look back on this as a turning point for how seriously concussions are taken within the industry?

*I don't follow the independent scene at all really, but I have heard that there's a wave of guys right now who are making their names on an updated version of the old-school World of Sport UK mat wrestling style. I think that's pretty cool. I've thought for a while that nifty chain wrestling could make inroads in the mainstream with the right proponents, since it can be both crowd-pleasing a relatively safe. Chad Gable offers a glimpse into a possible future there.

Xpost I think that's the point that meltzer's made today though?? That bryan's finally been convinced himself that there's no way back from here following these recent brain scans??

Nb I have no clue what "brain scans"
means here or how they would differ from whatever else he's been having done for the last 9 months. But that's what 411mania says that Dave meltZer is saying, and as any fool knows that is about as close to truth as you can get in wrestling

:(

o man :''''''''(

Ok so I just woke up in the middle of the night to cry like a baby.

Daniel Bryan was truly the best thing to ever happen to professional wrestling and i'm happy that he seems to have learnt to retire before he ended up even more hurt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsX1ATcyQxU

Daniel Bryan was truly the best thing to ever happen to professional wrestling and i'm happy that he seems to have learnt to retire before he ended up even more hurt.

Remember what Edge said about feeling the weight lift off his shoulders when the doctors took the decision out of his hands? I think the same thing is going on here. I hope he doesn't disappear from the business, but I never want to see him take a bump again, he owes that to himself and his loved ones.

With that being said, I've got YEARS worth of Bryan Danielson matches that I've never seen, only ever read about, that I can watch from here on in.

i'm seeing WWE getting good press for this but it's still worth questioning why tommy dreamer was allowed back for multiple matches

Get him in as a trainer down in NXT and make him a big part of the next season of Breaking Ground. Show him and William Regal being nerdlinger wrestling bros together :) A generation of new superstars trained by William Regal and Daniel Bryan, imagine!

With that being said, I've got YEARS worth of Bryan Danielson matches that I've never seen, only ever read about, that I can watch from here on in.

Yeah I'm feeling this pretty strongly right now, I've seen hardly any Ring of Honor stuff from before the last year or two. I downloaded all of the Danielson/McGuinness matches last night (watched the first one from the 2006 Weekend of Champions, it was really really great, cant wait to see more) and one of the ones I picked up was a fatal-four-way of Danielson vs McGuinness vs Castagnoli vs Black.

I knew they all came through Ring of Honor at some point, I never realised that they were all main-eventing at the same time. And then from a little earlier there were matches with Punk and Joe, and then a little later matches with KENTA, Steen and Generico. It was at this point that it hit me with full weight for the first time that holy shit, all the best stuff in WWE for years now has basically just been mid-late 00s Ring of Honor.

I don't follow the independent scene at all really, but I have heard that there's a wave of guys right now who are making their names on an updated version of the old-school World of Sport UK mat wrestling style

Yeah this is all the EVOLVE dudes right? Zack Sabre Jr., Timothy Thatcher, Drew Gulak and so on? Quite wanna start paying attention to this stuff

can't find a source but i've read that he's tried training before and hated it because he has no patience for trainees that essentially aren't as nerdy and dedicated to wrestling as him and regal

which sounds right

He also talks in his book about being a bad trainer - he did it for Roland Alexander for a while when he was only a greenhorn himself. Though that shouldn't stop him popping in now and then for special coaching/pep-talk sessions like they're doing with Quack this week, if he were game.

quackenbush was at nxt?

shit dun' changed

It's a sad way to go out but he really had a exceptional career. Who knows how many concussions he had, especially wrestling in that style. I keep thinking of a guy like Nick Bockwinkel, who was universally regarded as one of the smartest, most cerebral wrestlers ever, ending up with severe Alzheimers in his final years. Even at age 50 I'm sure he would have passed most or maybe all of the tests that Bryan took.

Like others here, I have years of Brian Danielson matches to catch up on -- stuff I read about while it was going on but never got around to checking out. Danielson vs Morishima, vs McGuinness, vs Joe ... a few weeks ago I stumbled upon a Tanahashi vs Danielson match!

In less important news, I have no clue what WWE is trying to accomplish with Roman Reigns anymore. The match at Fastlane is all about Lesnar vs Ambrose, while Reigns is just a guy who happens to be hanging around in the background while they fight. Shouldn't the main story be about Reigns and Lesnar having unfinished business from last years' Mania, while Ambrose tries to weasel his way into the title picture? I don't get it.

10 documented concussions, many more undocumented, occasional seizures that he didn't tell anyone about, lesions on his brain. fuuuuuucking hell bryan :(((((

dad of the year mr charity work titus oneill suspended 90 days for lightly grabbing vinces arm after raw ended?

black history month at the wwe everybody

Or vinny mac prepared to swallow a "cranky out of touch old bastard does something crazy" shaped pill in order to prevent telling anyone that dad of the year Titus has been on the naughty juice

Drug suspension is 30day, doing something slightly innapropriate after raw and while they all walk off stage is 90 days

Fair nuff, massive overreaction of course, but p. much serves him right anyway imo, was a stupid thing to do.

http://i.imgur.com/8v4kQ14.jpg

Maura - you have a magazine and its got okada on the front cover???

the whole issue is wrestling!

I just bought it - kind of a pain as the website kept timing out setting up my account, and no PayPal option?. Anyway, looking forward to reading this along with the Gary Hart memoir and the latest Atomic Elbow that's been sitting here for weeks.

What magazine is this?

Maura Magazine, Oct. 2015

it's true

"10 week long WWE Network-exclusive 32 man invitational cruiserweight tournament at Full Sail", it says here

http://babysimpson.co.uk/gallery/frames/5/1f12/375.jpg

Also interesting that Triple H name-dropped PROGRESS and Rev Pro along with Evolve. Probably also explains the meeting with Lucha Underground recently - I'd guess they want Ricochet in this thing for sure.

The feckin' spoilers on this will be killer, though. I imagine they'll be taping this whole thing over a few days so they can get lock down everyone they want in the same place at the same time.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/mediamonkeyblog/2016/feb/17/new-day-trinity-mirror-wrestles-with-the-daily-newspaper-market

So, the cruiserweight thing sounds incredible. There is talk of a lucha quota, possibly some japanese guys (liger is rumoured), all the british guys like thatcher and sabre jr, ricochet and some other indie stars and the talent who will be nxts main event in the next 18 months. No hornswaggle despite him being reigning champ.

It could just be a boring ass spot fest for a while, but if its the same bookers as nxt and a load of guys lookinh to really push out and make a name for themselves it could be the best thing we see all year.

https://www.facebook.com/JoeyRyanOnline/videos/1350979128249253/

So, the cruiserweight thing sounds incredible. There is talk of a lucha quota, possibly some japanese guys (liger is rumoured), all the british guys like thatcher and sabre jr, ricochet and some other indie stars and the talent who will be nxts main event in the next 18 months

will be interesting to see how all this plays out for sure. it seems a lot will depend on contract status and stuff like that for the guys they wanna get, as I think WWE have probably burned a ton of bridges in the recent past with some of their behaviour - will we really be seeing Jushin Liger back on WWE tv again anytime soon after the way they've just bowled in and scooped the guts out of the NJPW roster?

this was exactly why NJPW refused outright to a deal that was (reportedly) floated where WWE got to broadcast New Japan stuff on the Network (god how amazing would that have been?!), saying that they'd have to be chumps to agree to a situation where the WWE were promoting all the New Japan guys and just waiting to snaffle any talent that got over outside of Japan. of course as it turned out the WWE just shrugged their shoulders and did exactly that anyway.

and how are AAA/Lucha Underground wrt contracts and exclusivity? weren't WWE dicking them around with Rey Mysterio's non-compete for a while there so they weren't able to use him during season 1?

a bunch of these dudes (Sabre, Ospreay, possibly Ricochet? i forget) are being pimped as the next bunch of guys being primed to go to NJPW and fill out that roster a bit. especially if NJPW are now offering multi-year guaranteed contracts as a means of fighting WWE talent raids, maybe that would be more appealing to some of these hot-shot indy guys than an "opportunity" in this cruiserweight open deal with no guarantees at the end of it?

but then those guys are all still being booked on Evolve shows around WM weekend and WWE seems to have a pretty good relationship with Evolve and the WWNLive thing, so who knows?!

idk idk, this is all vague speculation and hearsay, it'd be fucking brilliant to get the real headline indy and international talent to come in and work this thing. either way i think it's a cool and exciting thing.

on the subject of Zack Sabre Jr. though, has anyone here seen much of his stuff / can anyone make any recommendations? I've been watching a few matches of his from Evolve and Progress and I really really like the idea of him, but so far it hasn't hit the spot for me.

He's clearly very talented but the whole act seems a little too... performative? like he's only ever putting on an exhibition. it's very pretty to look at but there's no heat to it and it never feels like he's in a real fight. is this part of what people mean when they talk about the weirdness of old World of Sport mat-based stuff?

boo

i don't need a swerve a week but it genuinely feels like they've just given up on surprising us at all, or ever doing anything other than the most obvious thing

roman won, it was an engaging match, and nothing interesting happened at all. it was the exact story we knew they were going to tell with shades of the exact stories they've been telling for the past year with these characters. it doesn't feel like pre-attitude booking, it feels like pre-80s booking, except kayfabe is dead. there's no heat, nothing matters, who cares?

Yeah also we got the league of nations instead of enzo&cass.

Why fucking care? Fans are fucking crying out for some very simple things that would make it so much better. And if they cant be bothered in doing aaaaanything exciting, eh why not respond with apathy and watching less?

Theyve made BROCK LESNAR not seem special.

meanwhile, this is going to sound super terrible because jim cornette i think said a similar thing a while ago and smarks all around thought it was dumb because i don't think they really got the point:

nxt and by extension the cruiserweight thing and breaking ground -- all the 'minor league' stuff -- feel more and more cynical the crappier the main product gets, like they really only do exist to retain the $9.99/mo from the 'niche' that rejects a roman/HHH main event, basically negating all main roster criticism. WWE knows how to book a 'good' show with heat and engaging angles and characters but they've decided it's more lucrative to toss that out the window and segregate their audiences into "loud fatasses" and "spending-as-fuck families", even if it kills raw ratings and creates a generally embarrassing product. the generic response to cornette's ranting was "well duh, if they give us a product we like (nxt) of course we'll pay for it!" without really grasping that they're giving WWE 100% of the money WWE thinks they'll be able to extract from them anyway and not a penny less. you can't whine about WWE "not listening to its fans" and then keep on spending your $9.99+the occasional enzo/bayley shirt and NXT tour ticket (and invariably watching the network PPVs anyway because hey why not), when that is all WWE ever planned on getting from you. they're not gonna make any extra money off the internet crowd by making raw a good show. the network leveled everything and allowed them to exploit the demos with perfect market segregation. raw is doing fine -- they don't even get direct money off cable ads iirc and USA will continue to love it as long as it's still their #1 show, which isn't going to change. a smarky smark criticizing raw means as much to them as a kid decked out in cena gear criticizing NXT. each fan is still paying what they're gonna pay.

i hate corny but i think he's right. (i probably wouldn't be this irked about it if NXT wasn't super boring right now imo, though i guess it's about to get more interesting)

but WWE is being pretty smart. i think there's a lot more money to be made by doing things differently -- i think wrestling could absolutely be primed to cross over in a major way again with a change in direction -- but they'd clearly rather not take the risk when the network plan has been so successful.

super xps to myself tho relevant to ahh's posts !

i'm also pretty sure at this point that they seriously got styles as a ready-made bryan replacement. jericho kicking out of the clash and immediately submitting to the "calf crusher" seems telling.

on a much sadder note i am definitely not ready to say goodbye to brie mode, the greatest entrance song in WWE and possibly history

They would make more money by making raw a good show. With more viewers, an ratings keeep dropping, they could get higher paid advertising, actually sell out arenas and get big contracts with worldwide television companies. If they are lpsing fans every week, what happens the next time their deal comes up? They talk about how sky has been pissed off since the network launched in europe. Maybe not gonna be a big deal but fuck me what is wrong with trying to do better.

I thought it was a decent show. I thought Aj-jericho was especially good viewing. I really just cant care about watching the weekly shows from it though. Taker and his mystery opponent happens tonight i presume and i still just dont care that much. Maybe if the internet says its good.

But a huge part of their income is still based on TV rights fees, most of which is for RAW. So on one hand they should be concerned about plummeting ratings and crap angles on RAW, on the other hand they're riding the rights fees bubble for live events that every sports league currently enjoys.

I think NXT was meant to be a loss leader for the WWE as a whole, at any one time they're paying 100 people to train at the performance center (plus trainers, equipment, etc.) expecting that realistically, almost none of them will make them any money. But all you need is one John Cena to emerge from the pack to recoup that investment in the long run. I don't think they expected much more from it, so the fact that people are willing to pay for the network to see NXT or to see NXT live shows is almost found money for them.

Plus, it proves to investors that VKM's doofus son-in-law (who will eventually be running the entire company) can run a successful business, despite not having any formal training in business. That probably can't be understated.

xp i don't think they think there's anything wrong with raw as long as they're still making a buttload of network money and merch money. what we see as a shitty product is their idea of success, and changing the formula could harm the family demographic which is their most important one. i don't think that would actually happen but it seems like they do. vince's comments lately also imply that he values the hulu/network numbers on raw (presumably people actually do watch the month-old raws on the network) and he's convinced the cable rating isn't a big deal. and it isn't yet. it's still USA's #1 show, and like i said, they don't get money from ads, NBC does. and NBC is still paying them enough apparently. they never really got good ads, no matter the ratings, right? the issue has always been that the big advertisers didn't want to be associated with wrestling, no matter how huge the rating is.

either way it's the network that's making them their money now, as long as raw's on air they should be happy. and USA was happy to take smackdown after a year of shit ratings so that should tell you how secure raw's place is.

Btw for THE ROAD TO THE BIGGEST WRESTLEMANIA EVEEERRRRRR we have... one title match noone actually wants to see booked. Is there actually any other matches on the card for wm32? I guess no zayn-owens, lesnar taker ambrose aj charlotte sasha dont have opponehts. The New Day vs the League of nations maybe? That is fucking uninspired. The wyatts cant beat kane and big show, they dont deserve to be on wm.

FAAAÀAAAAAAAAST LAAAAAANE ON THE ROAD TO.... nothing really

Their TV income may be secure but I still can't see them sitting around saying that it doesn't matter if Roman Reigns gets booed or not. It won't kill their TV money, at least not for a while, but it can have a huge effect on a big event live Wrestlemania. Tens of thousands of unsold tickets + lost merch + a lower than expected boost in network subscribers can add up to tens of millions in lost income if the card is terrible. This year's Mania could be a serious wake up call.

big event *like* WM

Familys will still buy tickets and merch if the show was made less dull. Noone (who isnt a moron) is asking for it to be 97ecw, it can still be family friendly and have an exciting angle or actual characters with personalities once in a while.

Tens of thousands of unsold tickets + lost merch + a lower than expected boost in network subscribers can add up to tens of millions in lost income if the card is terrible

is that what we're talking about though? i'm pretty sure people buy Roman Reigns merchandise and i'm pretty sure that putting Reigns in the main-event isn't going to lose them tens of thousands of ticket sales. the booing thing is totally true of course, they're gonna look ridiculous if this goes the way it looks likes going and he gets the Royal Rumble treatment again to close Mania. but don't they always go on now about how the Mania brand is a stronger draw than any card they put together?

nxt and by extension the cruiserweight thing and breaking ground -- all the 'minor league' stuff -- feel more and more cynical the crappier the main product gets, like they really only do exist to retain the $9.99/mo from the 'niche' that rejects a roman/HHH main event, basically negating all main roster criticism.

yeah this is true i think, and it totally works because the alternative they're providing with NXT is really that good - totally agree that it's in a lull right now (in particular they've gotta work out how to make Finn Balor something more than a look and an entrance or he's gonna go the way of Neville) but as you say, it's about to take off in the not-too-distant future and the card they've put together for Dallas looks absolutely thrilling, a million miles more interesting than anything they'll be able to rustle up for WM.

And all this is kinda fine, I think? If you think about the times historically when the product has been at its absolute worst (in the recent-ish past I think you can make a good case that 2007-2010 things were as bad as they've ever been, entertainment-wise) there was no refuge to take! you either watched the shit stuff or you got nothing.

i understand where the accusation of cynicism is coming from and it's valid to say that having NXT gives them some breathing room to let Raw just be total turd, but it's not like if NXT wasn't around there would be some guarantee that all the smarks would stop paying for the Network and force the company to sit up and take notice. WWE's been shit loads of times while barely catering to the hardcore fans and they've always got by. I wouldn't wish NXT away in the hope that they might somehow be forced to improve the booking on the main show. Seems like a fools errand while VKM is running things.

if anyone is really dissatisfied i suppose the answer is to just stop paying? i've stopped (cashflow problems around Xmas meaning I had to cut out a few subscription services for a little while) and it's totally fine, it's not like the torrent sites don't have everything up 5 mins after the broadcast is over anyway. steal everything all the time imo

Rewatching the main event as i was half asleep when i saw it earlier.

Ambrose being caught by Lesnar for a suplex was terrific. Always love a shield call back too, the table spots were great in showing what you really need to do to stop lesnar, instead of a shit wyatt spot. Also Sable has to be pissed, why does everyone hate her husbands genitals?

All a perfectly fine match, although im a bit disappointed as i just wanted to see some more brock and the overall storytelling for reigns at wm is very underwhelming.

Also i feel like crazy ambrose just doesnt match his character. Stop pointing at the wrestlemania sign and go wild.

For what was a really fun match, boy is the crowd fucking dead or mildly booing at the end.

I just really dont see how reigns is the annointed one. Hes good, sometimes excellent but just noone cares. At all. Noone cares. He is not a compelling character. Fighting a guy who has not defended his title once and never won it off anyone really.

this was exactly why NJPW refused outright to a deal that was (reportedly) floated where WWE got to broadcast New Japan stuff on the Network (god how amazing would that have been?!), saying that they'd have to be chumps to agree to a situation where the WWE were promoting all the New Japan guys and just waiting to snaffle any talent that got over outside of Japan. of course as it turned out the WWE just shrugged their shoulders and did exactly that anyway.

Oh come on now, are wrestlers cattle? It's the same argument I heard over the Evolve partnership, 'ZOMG Hunter is poaching the indies, WWE is gonna kill the scene' etc.

I just really dont see how reigns is the annointed one. Hes good, sometimes excellent but just noone cares. At all. Noone cares. He is not a compelling character. Fighting a guy who has not defended his title once and never won it off anyone really.

They're not booking for us. I'm OK with that, I get what I want from the midcard far more often. Doesn't stop me wishing they'd built Reigns slower and steadier, though, because it was starting to work last year before WWE panicked over injuries thinning the upper-card talent pool, floored the gas and ruined it.

Their booking of Reigns follows a tried and tested pattern, they've done it countless times over and it's always worked before. So WWE is having trouble fathoming why this time would be any different, missing the blindingly obvious fact that the audience en masse doesn't buy Reigns as The Guy, because he's clearly not ready for the job.

This isn't like the Cena thing, where the fan base was far more divided, and passionate about it. This is a case of WWE letting everyone see their booking hand, and the fans actually seeing how they're being manipulated, and just being fed up with it.

Here's another metaphor. Imagine your favourite song being butchered by an ill-prepared cover band - that's Roman Reigns in this situation.

Was never saying that wwe was killing anything, nor that wrestlers didn't have a mind of their own. Simply speculating that maybe njpw will be more loathe to cross-promote with wwe or allow their contracted guys to appear on wwe programming than they were 6 months ago. Could well be totally wrong! As I say, only speculating

Was never saying that wwe was killing anything, nor that wrestlers didn't have a mind of their own. Simply speculating that maybe njpw will be more loathe to cross-promote with wwe or allow their contracted guys to appear on wwe programming than they were 6 months ago. Could well be totally wrong! As I say, only speculating

I wasn't commenting on that, but on those who would extrapolate from it that WWE is out to crush all that we hold dear. WWE is making overtures in Japan for sure with the Network launch there, and knowing they're a bigger brand than NJPW is in its home country, so only natural that New Japan would be careful.

Their booking of Reigns follows a tried and tested pattern, they've done it countless times over and it's always worked before. So WWE is having trouble fathoming why this time would be any different, missing the blindingly obvious fact that the audience en masse doesn't buy Reigns as The Guy, because he's clearly not ready for the job.

They used to pay more attention to crowd reactions, now it's more about who they want on top for whatever reason and the crowd will learn to like it. It's not that Reigns isn't ready to the top guy, Bautista didn't have more experience than Reigns when he headlined Mania, but the crowd reactions week in and week out were way beyond anything Reigns gets.

The Batista thing was different, though, because they weren't so invested in him: they were hoping for a cheap Hollywood rub, and overestimated his value with the fan base as an in-ring guy (I mean, we're all OK with him in Guardians of the Galaxy, right?). Backing out of that wasn't as big a deal. But they've booked themselves into a corner with Reigns, who - and I maintain my stance on this - isn't ready. Whatever charisma he might have inside the ring does not translate to his general demeanour, and that's a massive problem.

MacDara - I think NoTimesBeforeTime is talking about Wrestlemania 21 when Batista took on HHH and won the title for the first time.

Thanks, I missed that part. But even at that, as green as he was between the ropes, Batista had a certain something that Roman Reigns does not have, or at least doesn't show. What does 'experience' count for, anyway?

I agree. Roman has all the signifiers of "it" without seeming to actually have "it". The anti-Daniel Bryan.

They've ignored crowd sentiment and apathy before (King of the Ring 95 being the most obvious example I can think of? Maybe also remembering Jack Swagger once won mitb and the big gold belt) but they also *noticed*, better too late than never and all that. If Roman beat Kane's record and won the Rumble and won at WM30, fine, Bryan could have still beat HHH but ever since his boring match with Orton at SS and injury like a week after, no-one has cared. That was 18 months ago he lost his heat and they've done nothing but fuck up every aspect since, leading to more and more apathy.

All while they've had crowds cheer and root for Cesaro, Ambrose, Brock, Owens, Cena, Ziggler, Rollins, Rusev, New Day, hell even Neville gets a better reaction and has shown he can lead from the top better when he was nxt champ as it grew into a big deal.

I cant see how this ends, accept Reigns is the only major star or stop watching, or just dont watch his segments, I guess. But people are already doing that and they are losing thousands of people a week. And its making people frustrated about every other aspect of the show.

The Attitude era WWF beat WCW because Rocky, Austin, Foley, HHH, Angle, Taker and a few others all seemed like they could realistically be the champ and demand yr attention; while as well documented Hogan and Nash et al used their politics or backstage shit got in the way of Goldberg, DDP etc. achieving similar respect and it became a mess. While maybe not on par with the Attitude era guys, and they do have a lot of injuries now, WWE is currently fucking stacked with top talent. And yet the Wyatts lose to Kane, Big Show and Ryback... so either Reigns first feud is against a Wyatt who cant beat Big Show, or against fucking *clapclapclapclapclap PLEASE RETIRE* big show.

so a dude who has successfully spoilered shit in the past (or rather, successfully teased it when a big deal was going down on a show that week) has told R/squaredcircle

Regardless of whatever trash last night was, watch Raw from beginning to end tonight.

You just might get an early christmas present

i am a SUCKER for this shit. just when i thought i was out.....

That was 18 months ago he lost his heat and they've done nothing but fuck up every aspect since, leading to more and more apathy.

i dunno if i agree with this, i think there have been multiple occasions, notably the WM 31 main event and the beatdown on HHH at TLC, where they've got the fans onside with Roman as a top guy. They just can't sustain it, he always reverts to type as this smug dislikable asshole

Yeah, I was talking about Batista at WM 21. The main event was supposed to be Orton-HHH, but Orton choked and/or crowds liked Batista more, so he got to be the one to destroy Evolution for good and beat HHH for the belt. The WWE used to know how to deal with this kind of thing -- Orton wasn't ready and Batista was red hot, so they switched directions. They blew off the HHH-Orton feud at Royal Rumble -- Orton (!!!) got three months of megapush before they gave up and decided to rebuild him later, which is way more than almost anyone else would have gotten. The Reigns push has been going on for two years and he keeps getting less and less popular!

if this crazily rumored thing (LOL GOOD JOB KEEPING ME HERE WWE) doesn't result in SHANE O MAC i'm cancelling the network

jk 1997 raw is so good right now

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HOLY SHIT

Man it sucks im having sleeping problems and nothing else to do but check ilx and see shane o mac rumours.

SHAAAAAAAANE O MAAAAAAC.

Hes gonna wrestle too!!!

Also his children has terrible names, Rogan and Kenyan? Ew.

Lol shane o mac vs taker in hell in a cell?

This is gonna be the worst booked funnest trainwreck wrestlemania ever

It is mind blowing the difference between nxt dallas and wrestlemania star.

One is potentially on a level with No Way Out 2001, Money in the bank 2011 and spring stampede 1994.

The other might be great cos its wm but has the appeal of Great American Bash 91 or watching any Raw between McMahons millions till Hornswaggles laptop.

Ooh boy. I dont usually watch Raw, at best check out whatever is said to be a great match or moment or whatever.

Roman Reigns reaaaaally cant cut a promo. Stood around staring at yr phone? *points to heart and blandly says* its whats here that matters, i like my odds... pssssh this guy has the charisma of steve blackman on the mic.

The first thing that came to mind when Vince announced Shane vs. Undertaker in the Cell was "why would Undertaker wrestle Shane just because Vince told him to?"

Right now they seem to be proposing to have Undertaker be the heel at WrestleMania, which is an odd choice. He was actually showing some heelish traits in his last feud with Lesnar, with the fake tapout and all the low blows. But that didn't end up leading anywhere (in fact IIRC it was barely acknowledged at the time, which was also strange), and even if it had, this would still be a weird direction.

Remember when Austin would drive in an ambulance and come fuck shit up?
Ambrose, former czw guy goes a 2 miles an hour and craws along the floor. What excitement youll see at mania! A streetfight with a guy who cant take a body slam on a car when al snow and roaddogg used to be able to get back up and go another 10 minutes as hardcore jobbers.

Yeah Taker as Vinces lackey seems very strange. But then again maybe its a story 20 years in the making

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cNgxyL5zEAk

I guess taker will take it seriously cos hes got a wrestlemania legacy to uphold? If he doesnt like vince hhh steph in story, he could just have it be fingerpoke of doom?

Ha, I'd forgotten about the Corporate Ministry connection for a second there

Stephs face is about 5 shades of orange, all a lot darker than her neck. Romans texting again, and now hes facing Sheamus and doesnt seem to care much about anything. Not in a lone wolf cool guy way, like she interrupted his game of candycrush.

Rtruth and goldust have been funny in the past, why are these vignettes sooooooooooooo bad?

Bray Wyatts entrance is a snickers commercial lol, this guy once fought john cena and taker at mania i shit you not

I guess they are having the same wyatt-rybackbigshowkane match as last night? Ryback didnt injure guys enough? Wyatt guys need to look even more like chumps?

I cant see myself watching another full raw until the post-wm one.

Oh and also... the fans need Shane o mac to win. A 46 year old non wrestler needs to do what flair, michaels, hhh, orton, kane, edge, diesel etc. Couldnt do.

So... its gotta get absurd. Its gotta be the start of balor club right?

The match is so boring ryback forgot he was in it and wanders off.

"What the hell was that?" Jbl quoting krusty the clown otm

SASHA WOOOO

Sorry for liveblogging.

Sasha Banks v Becky Lynch was great in nxt right? Its next week i guess, actually they didnt say when.

This is about the tenth time theyve reshown the shane interaction

This show is fucking ridiculously long.

For black history month i guess they run out of black wrestlers and then celebrate noted non controversial figure james brown. Surprised they didnt do it to somebody call my momma.

And then lol the godfather is in the hall of fame. I guess messing up at wm8 is kinda like being a hall of fame main eventer.

Roman gets a few boos, and i guess his phone needed recharging cos he finally put it down.

For the first time in kinda long triple h will cut a long boring promo on smackdown.

Watch it! Woo! Im getting sleepy. Maybe raw *is* the cure to my sleeping problems.

Sheamus loses by countout. Fucking captivating.

Hhh wheres a leather jacket! That means something right? Oh he forgot to put a sleeveless denim jacket over it so the brawl is a bit lame cos hes not at full strength. Hopefully after shane o mac returns this week from 1999, as does the sleeveless denim jacket.

Hhh getting massivr cheers to beat up roman lol. Reigns is busted open and getting beat up by a retired suit and they cheer the old motorhead fan.

Wonder where the league of nations went

"This is the sad reality that Roman Reigns must now face."

This is so meta its ridiculous. Face and heel means nothing anymore. The guy the office obviously want to be the guy is generally loathed or gets indifferent reactions so the evil boss guy gets cheers for making him look like a chump and with either ending people are kinda ok with the evil corporation winning but actually just dont really care? Whens Cesaro expected back?

Idk if i can watch raw again anytime soon. That was hard work and hell i still enjoyed a lot of it.

I didn't see RAW yet but it sounds like one of the more entertaining trainwrecks we've seen in a while. At least they managed to deliver on the rumours that Taker's opponent would be somebody not currently on the roster (as opposed to saying that Cena is injured and thus technically not on the roster, or firing Big Show for five minutes to take him off the roster when they announce the match). Although supposedly the challenge was vague enough for Shane to announce someone (i.e. Rock or Cena) to fight on his behalf?

I wonder how the companies that won't insure Rock to wrestle would react to this ... "yeah, he's gonna need coverage for one night, it's called 'Hell in a Cell' and a seven foot tall zombie is going to ram his face repeatedly into a steel mesh. But he'll be fine ... on the set first thing Monday morning!"

It wont be the Rock. Cena is updating his twitter everyday with some super human recovery to fight a seven foot tall zombie stooge in a steel mesh cage.

Of which Taker's in his home state for possibly the last match of his career, so he cant be anything other than a face but he'll be fighting for the bad guys?

I am kinda loving how much of a clusterfuck this is all being. I wonder if Russo was secretly hired.

I fell all asleep at 10 and only got through like the first 3 segments uploaded to watchwrestling

doesn't look like I missed much

ah fuck that, get Cena to fight someone else, I want Shane-O-Mac in the HIAC match. he's only 46, he could totally still go off the top of the cell through a bunch of tables without killing himself. probably

otm

and a reminder of how fun and grotesque it could get

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3r8uo0_shane-mcmahon-vs-kurt-angle-street-fight-king-of-the-ring-2001_sport

i watched most of raw to see if they'd clarify anything about shane o'mac vs undertaker so i could stop being so confused by the idea, a mostly regrettable decision but i did enjoy seeing the huge pop for vile heel roman reigns finally getting his comeuppance

omg the 2001 KOTR is one of the PPVs I remember sneaking out of bed to watch on a school night at the tender age of 10, during that initial romance with wrestling that I'm sure all young fans must experience where whole promos, segments, matches are just burned into your brain forever after.

so strange to watch it back now with context and realise that A) there never had been and never would be a WWE match that brutal ever again (maybe excepting the Cactus Jack / HHH stuff and B) there was nothing that 2000-2001 era Kurt Angle couldn't do. Technical exhibitions? Check. Big dramatic main-event brawls? Check. Truly and timelessly hilarious backstage comedy skits? Check. Fucking 110% insanse overblown garbage death-matches against non-wrestlers? CHECK. Dude was a fucking marvel, I know everyone goes on about this all the time but he'd literally debuted 3 years earlier!! Amazing. What a guy.

Greatest theme music, also. fuck man bring back Kurt Angle you fucks, give the guy the send-off that he deserves

i'm still v v slowly catching up on lucha underground, but dayyyyyyyym that fenix - mil muertes casket match!

that shane/kurt match is one of the best of all time. they also almost literally killed each other.

When is the casket match? Ive been doing similar, just had aztec warfare.

Kurt is a free agent or easy to get atm right? Him w/ Shane v taker would be glorious, aj and joe have already shown tna can be easily forgotten

yeah he's available. problem is they always said they got rid of him when they did because they didn't want him dying in a WWE ring. that was 10 years and a looooot of matches ago. In this brave new world of concussion awareness and refusing to let people work etc. i just can't see it

casket match is episode 19, 'grave consequences'

ah im only 11 episodes in. <3 fenix though

https://giant.gfycat.com/WavyContentAmoeba.gif

What's going on there?

I was going to ask the same thing. Failing to find a razor blade?

I've heard of "colour commentary" but this is beyond the pale!

Hey Byron when we said we needed you to provide a little colour on the commentary desk we meant in the sense o

Looks like when Lawler calls him "BS" he means "Blade Smuggler"!

Anyway commiserations to Byron Saxton on his forthcoming $90,000 fine

Others are saying it was a blood capsule he was handing off, which makes more sense. I can't imagine Sexy Roman gigging his forehead.

I'm more offended by Vince swearing in the opening segment. So Brad Maddox gets shit-canned for saying 'pricks' in a dark match but Vince can say one of the Seven Dirty Words and get away with it?

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/2-17-2016/EqslPE.gif

http://i.imgur.com/VTuZJUP.gif

these guys seem unbelievably good at doing other people's entrances, the Finn Bayley stuff on the NXT house shows is kind of mind-blowing

Main roster 2k16: Shane McMahon and (possibly synthetic) blood back on Monday night raw; critically acclaimed developmental brand creating the stars of the future: people in brightly coloured t-shirts jumping up and down and hugging each other

lol dad-approved blood capsule over blade isn't going to do roman's reputation any favors

(triple h is roman's dad)

http://49.media.tumblr.com/0fad04ac163780ca145391a2513b95c8/tumblr_o2zfm1Q2g61s8dwjeo1_400.gif

anyone worked out which bit of this is gonna get Roman Reigns over?

fast coming to the conclusion that animated gifs is p. much the optimum medium for consuming wrestling

The mishandling of Roman Reigns is definitely one of the most bewildering things I've ever encountered in my years following WWE. You'd think you'd really have to try hard to screw him up. And apparently that is a popular theory going around the internet these days (although I still think incompetence is the better explanation, for now).

Yeah I am dubious at some of the conspiracy theory stuff that's being posited, seems like a combo of vince being stubborn and out of touch, and hunter just not being able to help himself.

Kind of awesome and hilarious the way his rep has been rehabilitated what with nxt and so on, Cause I think you can make a pretty cohesive argument that he's still all about putting himself over at all times whatever the cost, and that has never not been the case.

He'll happily lose in big matches but he always makes sure to look as strong as possible during the buildup and in the actual match. I get that you want to keep the champion strong so that beating him means something. But for this particular feud, they really needed for HHH to screw Reigns out of the title at the Rumble, run away from him for weeks before Reigns can kill him, get forced into a title match through some shenanigans, and getting bulldozed at Mania to put Reigns over for good. In other words, Sting vs Hogan (the buildup, not the match itself). Instead it's HHH winning the Rumble more or less cleanly, beating the piss out of Reigns whenever he wants, and actively campaigning to have the match at Mania. And I'm sure the match will be 3/4 Reigns getting his ass kicked and making a big comeback at the end (to a chorus of boos).

The only way it works afait* is it has to go on last, i know i know, and reigns has to flip the fuck out. Like worse than austin at wm17. Hes gotta go fucking mental. Hes gotta have motivation. Preferably a manager or a faction. Possibly bring the cage down just to throw ambrose or hhh off it. Make him a scary motherfucker. If Shane wins, and he should, itll be the first time in 200 years the booker wont be the main heel and they should establish it immediately.

*obv not in the biz, ive just had 2 days off work watching lots of wrestling

If Shane wins, and he should

i think whatever happens - and right now it seems plausible that they are banking on Cena being fit or someone else coming in to fight as Shane's avatar, with Shane going into the cage only in the last extremity - there's just no way that Shane McMahon gets a Wrestlemania pinfall on The Undertaker. I know, nepotism etc. but this is Taker at Mania, that still means something. He'd lie down for Lesnar because it's Lesnar, but no way does Shane-O go over in any scenario if that's the match we get, imo.

I don't know what they're going to do about Reigns/HHH and it'll be interesting to see them figure it out. I think even the scenario you've outlined wouldn't help a great deal, this guy is just dead in the water right now, whatever happens it's got to happen before the PPV to try and shake some life into this match.

itll be the first time in 200 years the booker wont be the main heel and they should establish it immediately.

yeah lol see this is what i mean about HHH, sure he'll lie down for younger or less established guys on the PPVs when the moment calls for it (which is actually a massive step forward, lest we forget CM Punk in 2011 or Lesnar at WM29) but if you think there's any way that the show doesn't continue to be all about him all the time i think you're crazy

Shane/Taker at Mania is gonna be a schmozz in any case. Taker's greatest hits: Kane pop up from the canvas for a helping hand, Papa Shango does a run in, caskets and fire and lighting and shit. As Gorilla might put have it, it'll be a happening. I'll get my workrate itch scratched with NXT TakeOver; on WrestleMania Sunday I just want to be entertained.

To clarify:

I meant 'Shane'. I really don't think Shane fights, although he'll fall off something or through something.

I also don't expect any of that scenario to happen.

WM will be and needs to be SCHMOZZFEST 2016, at least Taker-'Shane', the title match, presumably a multi man ladder match type thing, whatever crazy tag team thing they have going on and of course the streetfight. Only whatever AJ, KO and the womens title match will be legit. And being SCHMOZZFEST is p much the best way to go, being all serious about the three match ups we currently know about would be criminal. Especially knowing nxt will be a masterpiece.

Went to the OTT Wrestling show in Dublin last night, mostly to see Will Ospreay before he heads off to New Japan. He's a phenomenal performer, oodles of charisma to match his athleticism, he's gonna be a star over there (watch out KUSHIDA!).

Sadly I didn't get to see the end of his main event triple threat, as the show ran long (my bus home was across the city, a 25-minute brisk walk). And the venue/show management left a lot to be desired: the atmosphere changed as the evening went on and the audience necked back more and more cheap lager. So many drunks, a couple getting all up in my face. Had to fight my way through the crowd to get to the only exit. I'm a 35-year-old man, I've never been in a fight but I think I can handle myself, yet I did not feel very comfortable.

I don't need that bullshit with my wrestling - nor the sexist macho/lad-culture replies to my complaints on Twitter - so I won't be going again. And I'm having second thoughts about attending tonight's ICW show, too.

(Update: I went to the ICW show in the end and it was a blast - even if I'd much prefer a seated show.)

MacDara the thread-killer strikes again ha-ha!

Anyway, what did everyone think of Raw? I'll check back in later after I've watched it.

steph promo was a+ (albeit in the classic format of "i am a heel but i'm going to say lots of things that are otm because i'm also kind of not a heel i suppose"), dean-trips stuff was v good, becky-sasha was decent but obviously setting up for bigger things, rest was not really worthwhile

tho i am looking forward to this hilarious odd couple-style sitcom, coming soon on usa network

http://411mania.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Undertaker-Vince-McMahon-Raw-22916-645x370.jpg

Kota Ibushi in "come and get me plea" to WWE Executive Vice-President of Talent Triple H.

i wish no harm upon any man but 4 real i can't wait until Vinnie Mac has checked out and Hunter has the freedom to extend his smart-mark EWR fantasy booking tendencies to the main roster.

in some alternate reality AJ Styles / Kevin Owens is yr WM IC title feud and it's hot-as-hot-can-be, and we're getting 20 mins of them tearing it up in a classic WM match to be remembered forever after.

in this actual real life reality AJ Styles is teaming with your most embarrassing uncle ahead of an inevitable split/heel turn giving us a match we've seen 5 times already in every possible combination that is entirely predictable and does nothing to elevate anyone. Kevin Owens just lost by count out to the muthafuckin Big Show. No one at the top of this company has any fucking clue at all what it is that ppl like in 2016.

AJ Styles has been w the company for 2 months, they've already had him pinned clean by one of their over-the-hill Attitude Era holdovers, killed the Styles Clash as a finisher, labelled him as a redneck and a rookie, mocked his height, dismissed his ability to cut a promo.. are these guys allergic to money or what

Styles was never going to be a main event star in WWE though. Daniel Bryan was a once in a generation exception (i.e. indie star not known for his mic work or having much of a character beyond "guy who likes kicking people" who unexpectedly developed both and was embraced by the fans while still being at the top of his game in the ring).

The Styles Clash has always been a dumb finisher too, and can't be safely or realistically applied to guys bigger than him (which is 85% of the WWE roster). They've been putting the calf killer/crusher over strong, so I have no complaints about any of this.

Jericho can still go in the ring, so he's not the problem, and Jericho/Styles vs New Day in a 15 minute tag title match at Mania could rock bells. The "redneck rookie" crap didn't help, and they've compensated for his mic work (which is poor by WWE standards) by having Jericho as the svengali behind all of his feuds so far.

I dont really mind jericho styles/new day or jericho-styles as pairings. Its gonna be alright for his first mania and hes still being booked kinda strong despite the problems. It'd be sweet if he can come out strong into a high-ish profile fued for post-mania and a good spot for summerslam (beat jericho at wm, wrestle owens for a few months, face a return like cena or orton at ss?).

Its still wwe though.

i take the point about the Styles Clash.

didn't mean to imply that AJ was ever going to be a main-event level star in WWE, just complaining in a general sense that they had this nice shiny new thing that people were totally excited about and they've managed to take most of the shine off it less than 3 months into his run. nothing's really been "ruined" or whatever, the problem is that they seemingly never run with the hot hand anymore when the opportunity is there.

Jericho beating Styles hasn't killed AJ's ability to be a big guy for them in the future, in the same way that Triple H pinning CM Punk in Summer 2011 didn't kill off Punk (I'm aware there are significant differences). but they're both examples of them hitting the brakes on guys who had momentum because... why? i just don't get why they don't run with it when they stumble into something cool and exciting.

Jericho is part of the problem here imo, not specifically wrt to Styles but with the WWE generally. any of the guys who've been knocking around for more than a decade now are part of the problem. you watch WWF/E throughout history, picking years at random and look at how different the rosters are between, say, 1984 1987 1991 1994 1999 2004 - things used to change up all the time. having so many long-termers on the roster makes everything feel so stale. as soon as anyone new and interesting gets involved with them the gloss immediately wears off a bit because it's 2016 and i don't wanna watch the Big Show wrestle anymore

I think i can think of like 5 spur of the moment booking-the-hot-guy examples in 10 years.

Punks contract
Hall of pain
The new day
The rhodes brothers
Something something daniel bryan
...that time rtruth actually got to headline a ppv match against cena?
...
...
...

I just remembered that when rock and cena tagged for a big 4 ppv main event their competitors were... the fucking miz and r truth, because of a laptop. Really puts in perspective the current lot.

Remember Ziggler at Survivor Series or when he won the title the night after Raw? He lost to miz in a minute i heard on Raw.

You've discussed Aj.

Kevin Owens beat Cena in his first match and less than a year later hes fueding with ziggler and big show.

Rusev went on a winning streak and got a fucking tank and now hes Sheamus' lackey.

Lol wyatts.

Neville had the best title non-win in a million years last year and is he even still on the show?

There are most probably a million other examples.

This is what they do.

Fuck its depressing. Come on trips.

last thing i wanna do is defend wwe, but like... i feel like everyone complains about dudes not being booked heavily enough if they're not in the immediate heavyweight title picture? i mean for better or for worse, there's a story with that title now, they can't put everyone in that story. they've already got at least 4 dudes in that story right now!

for real as long as Kevin Owens gets occasional WWE.com exclusive interviews where he has to be reluctantly roused from reclining on some kind of pallet backstage I will be happy

xpost to Will M

nah it's not about wins and losses and titles i don't think, not directly. like, i absolutely am not demanding that AJ Styles (but this goes for loads of guys) easily win every match he's in and be in the world title picture or w/e, of course not, only idiots think that good workrate = deserving top star in that way. BUT there is such a distance between that kind of myopic smark view and the reality, there is a middle ground that could be taken.

when you've got guys on your roster who are fresh, new, exciting, capable of putting together different and interesting new feuds with excellent matches PUT THEM TOGETHER! take these things which are fresh and new and exciting and let them reinvigorate your show! it'll get over! don't put them with fucking Jericho or Big Show or Kane or whoever because then I'm just an asshole sat in a room watching Big Show or Jericho or Kane or whoever AGAIN in 2016.

"________ vs Big Show"

it doesn't matter who you plug into this equation, it's still a case of same old shit and it's nothing i as a viewer want any part of. beating Chris Jericho in 2016 means nothing. feud them with fucking Neville or Breeze or Rusev or Harper or WHATEVER, just get these old fucks off my screen, give me something different. it's not like any of it could possibly hurt ratings or buy-rates. stop having fun new guys get beat by 25 year vets on your main tv show. no one's gonna get over like this

yeah, lot of fresh talent that could be feuding w/ each other but it feels like they're saving all these guaranteed straight-fire matches for a future that may never come

the new guys never get properly introduced, which is a bummer, and i blame 3 hours of live tv. their video package department is so damn good, why are they doing 20-minute individual one-act plays with shaky actors in front of 10000 people when they could do 5-minute intro things? like the nxt vids, minus the "reality" ness of it all. more kayfabe-y intros. like Lucha Underground. idk, if i'm someone who never watched nxt, how am i supposed to know ANYTHING about neville? occasional mic spots? while 10000 people say WHAT? ...i just feel like before someone gets on a mic, it'd be nice if we KNEW a lot about them.

seriously, show me a 3-minute video of neville, invent a backstory where he idk used to be a trapeze artist in the circus with a violent streak, left to join THE REAL CIRCUS of wwe.

or show me a 3-min video of breeze at his summer home in XXXXXXXX being a general vain doofus and make it clear that he hates uggos, then put him in a feud with an uggo. there are so many uggos to choose from!

i honestly do feel even though they WAY overdid it that the wyatt videos WERE effective for a while!! short, weird, developed character and to a lesser extent established motivation in a way that trying to do it in the bright lights on a mic live just can't do concisely!

otm.

i tried thinking about it and what i could come up with in recent times

2010 alberto del rio is a rich guy in a mansion
2012 chris jericho has faux taker cryptic vids and comes out saying nothing
2012 lord tensai isnt prince albert, hes got a face tattoo now
2012 brodus clay is a killer, who they then forget about and hes a funky dinosaur
2012 brock comes back from ufc
2013 wyatts
2013 team hell no anger management

im clutching at straws, and in the past 6 years there has definitely been 100+ men and women on the roster they could have done this with. to fill a 3 hour fucking show. or the other 2 hour one. or the other ones they have on top of those.

they maybe did it with sin botchy too? icantremember

were hell no's anger mgmt videos live sketches backstage or actual produced vids? i never saw them (only got back in like... 2ish yrs ago)

I think it was a mixture of both, those segments were dumb but they got THN 10x more over than I would have thought possible.

didn't mean to imply that AJ was ever going to be a main-event level star in WWE, just complaining in a general sense that they had this nice shiny new thing that people were totally excited about and they've managed to take most of the shine off it less than 3 months into his run. nothing's really been "ruined" or whatever, the problem is that they seemingly never run with the hot hand anymore when the opportunity is there.

I completely agree ... he showed up at the Rumble to a huge reaction and it might turn out to be the highlight of his WWE career. They could have put him in an IC title feud for him to get his feet wet, and let his push develop organically from there. Instead he's trading wins and losses just like every other WWE midcarder, after two months he's already in the Ziggler zone where he's stuck in this infinite loop of midcard matches with the same guys 4 life.

RIP Hayabusa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izYE04Zko5c

caught up with the two most recent episodes of NXT today, and boy that Zayn / Joe two-out-of-three-falls match is really something, eh?

I hate sounding like a boring old-school-wannabe Steve Austin mark, but I have been watching a lot of old wrestling recently and I'm finding it increasingly difficult to deal with the style of match that Balor / Neville work in their match from last week. It's all kicks and dives art 100 miles an hour, I hit you then you hit me, two faces trying to "outperform" each other with no one selling shit and nothing getting to breathe at all. I mean it was all very technically proficient I'm sure, but was I meant to believe in or care about anything that happened? Rubbish match.

Night and day when compared to this Sami / Joe match. Obviously it's much easier to do when you're going 40 minutes rather than 12 and I'm not discounting that, but jesus, the difference that it makes just having a good guy and a bad guy, having that bad guy beat the living tar out of the good guy and milk the boos, having the good guy make fired-up comebacks and play to the crowd.... it's all so much more engaging this way.

still haven't been able to plough through all of the first season of Lucha Underground yet (i'm enjoying it much more than that sounds) so i won't be getting to this week's triple threat any time soon, but apparently it was also a barnburner of a match? what with the tag match on Raw as well, seems like a good week.

lucha underground triple threat was great, yeah, maybe my second fave lu match behind grave consequences. (i know what you mean about ploughing through it, i caught up thanks to the blessing of unemployment. thirty hours of anything is going to be tough going at points...)

xpost I get what you're saying re the difference between Balor/Neville and Zayn/Joe but I loved the former; as I was watching it I never felt like they weren't selling, I was totally taken in by them being so fired up. Especially that ending, when Balor hit the Coup (a finisher I don't like, it's too 'real' with no pro wrestling oomph) and then followed up with the brainbuster (or was it a brainbuster-Bloody Sunday mashup? I think he got a single underhook?) because he needed that extra something.

The only thing lacking in the match for me was a story, it was more of a New Japan style bout where they're just two top guys fighting to prove themselves. That's where Zayn/Joe had the edge, they've built up some great heat between those two, but the ending of their second match kinda ruined it for me, and I'm sitting here convinced that the third fall in their best-of-3 match next week will end in another screwy finish, like a double countout or double DQ or something (though they're gonna have to wrap it up before TakeOver).

(Oh wait, that third match was this week - I haven't watched NXT yet, oops! I'll be back on the weekend when I've done that.)

i haven't seen the balor / neville match but sc's description reminds me of the kind of refocusing i had to do to appreciate the most lucha-y of lucha underground's matches, not really being familiar with the lucha style before. often so much of it seems like a spectacular thing happens, then everybody moves into position for the next spectacular thing, and so on. i think for that reason i slightly prefer fenix to prince puma (though i love prince puma too), fenix is a bit meatier, more physical, prince puma tends towards something less believable, not even in a wrestling sense but in a human sense - immaculate springboard 450 to the outside through a table? ya i remember doing that on n64, didn't seem physically plausible then, still doesn't now that i've seen an actual person do it

certain moves now trigger an almost instinctual negative response from me when i see them in a match, the superkick is possibly the worst case but i would include shitty not-really-suicide--dives and those spinning thrust kicks to the mid-section that Balor and Neville O'Ded on during their match.

i don't want to be a boring miserablist motherfucker and i'm not about to come out like some guys and claim that Jerry Lawler is the greatest pro wrestler to have ever lived or whatever, but i do have sympathy with those boring miserablist motherfuckers like Austin or Cornette who complain that so much of what is generally considered "good" contemporary wrestling essentially feels like a video game with nothing at stake and no one even pretending to make it feel real. dudes doing moves in the hope of getting a "this is awesome" chant when actually if someone just lay on the floor and sold for a bit it'd all work 100x better.

the understanding of this distinction is why Samoa Joe and Sami Zayn are two awesome pro wrestlers and Finn Balor in partic. is a kind of an athletic nothing who badly needs to work out what he's good at and who the fuck he is beyond "i was once New Japan jr heavyweight champion". Hopefully the Bullet/Balor club will help with this

i do like finn and that maybe more spotty style but i get where you're coming from, i v much appreciated the first 15 mins of zayn - joe which was basically nothing happening in a very intense way. also king cuerno has ruined the suicide dive for everybody else

Yeah, agreed - I thought the first chunk of Zayn/Joe was the best of the match, IMO. I kinda lost interested in the middle of it but that's more on me being tired when I watched it last night.

I also completely get the criticisms of Balor, though I don't think his matches suffer as much from it as lucha libre. I've never been able to get into straight lucha - I've watched some CMLL and AAA and been like 'uhhh' - but Lucha Underground has been an easier adjustment, because it adds the American-style story and psychology that's lacking from the orthodox stuff.

Yeah Lucha is an odd one, it's way more impenetrable than u.s. and puro stuff, I've found.

The closest I've come so far aside from LU was this pretty extraordinary match I watched the other day, the highly-spoken-of ms-1 vs sangre chicana from 1983. Starts with ms-1 assaulting chicana outside the ring before the bell, immediately busting him wide open by smashing his head off the ring apron and it just goes from there.

There's all these little old Mexican grannies in fancy hats clustering round him wringing their hands and trying to help him to his feet while cussing out me-1, it's rad. Totally different kind of match to what we would think of as lucha though, no masks or flips or anything, just a wild wild 80s brawl. Not really sure what what stage in the development of the form lucha became all about the ranas and that

I was torn on Zayn/Joe, they worked hard but I felt they overdid some things for the sake of having a 40-minute match. The slow opening minutes telegraphed the fact that they were planning on working a long match, that took away some of the believability for me (I knew that it was a long match before I watched it, but still). How many fired up underdog comebacks can you have in one match, even from Zayn?

There was a sequence where Joe kept attacking Zayn on the outside and trying for a countout, where the match should have been accelerating toward the big finish but instead it slowed right down while Zayn laid around on the floor for five minutes.

any opinions on Roadblock? thought it was a bit of a nothing show tbh, cool seeing the NXT guys in their tag, Enzo and Cass have come a long way ito having engaging matches. Ambrose / HHH was good with a shitty finish (how many times have we said that in the last year or so?)

They need to do some more interesting shit with Lesnar. I know that him squashing fools by repeatedly throwing them onto their heads as hard as he can is the gimmick, but they've done enough now to establish him as the boss to end all bosses. they could've very easily let Harper be at least a little bit competitive and made more of a match of it. obviously you still have Lesnar win comprehensively and with ease, just let the victims try and find strategies for coping with him that give more of a story to his matches than "15 german suplexes and an F5". also vary the offence a little plz. i love watching him smash dudes but it'd be more interesting if he had more than 3 moves

the less said about Sami Zayn / Stardust the better. fuckin idiots

I watched most of the New Day match (and promo), Jericho's promo and match, the NXT tag match, and the main event. I didn't bother with the bait and switch in the Brock match, not like I particularly want to see Wyatt vs Lesnar either, but what was the point of any of that?

Jericho doesn't get enough credit for what he does. He comes back when he feels like it and couldn't care less about where he is on the card or even whether he's on TV (during one comeback he only worked house shows). He has more than enough money to retire or to come back once a year for a WM payoff/ego boost, instead, he seems genuinely interested in going on the road and having feuds with guys he's never worked with before and putting them over.

Ambrose/HHH started slow, but really picked up by the end. The crowd reaction to the false pin was huge -- was anybody in WWE paying attention?

I'm all for more of these glorified house shows (Roadblock, Beast in the East) from WWE.

been reported that Bray's got a fucked-up back and wasn't up to working the match apparently, dunno how far ahead of time this was known

i suppose there's no reason to expect anything interesting to happen on a glorified house show but it would be nice if wwe could do something surprising ever. nevertheless it was a solid card, apart from sami-stardust mess. really enjoyed charlotte-natalya too, patented divas match finish aside.

xpost

Well, Bray and Heyman both cut backstage promos about the match during the show itself, so ...

That Enzo/Cass vs. Revival match was fantastic. As earlier posts of mine in this thread will attest, I am a big Scott Dawson supporter. And I love Enzo's high-speed crossbody. That's a beautiful move.

yes ^ and they looked like they belonged on the big stage even enzo. cass looked great.

Taker vs Shane is really going to be the main event at Mania, isn't it? At least they won't have to worry about Reigns getting booed by 100K people to close the show.

Supposedly there's still backstage heat on HHH for appearing on NXT Takeover when he "should" have been selling the beating he got from Reigns on RAW in December. This stuff is baffling, even for WWE in 2016. They've got a network that airs 8293854 different kayfabe breaking shows, but HHH not staying off TV long enough to sell his fake injuries is what's killing Roman Reigns' push? IDGI.

hey so uhhhhhh NAKA-FUCKIN-MURA was on NXT last night. for real i don't think i actually care at all what they do with Mania at this point - actually this isn't quite true - i hope Dean Ambrose goes full CZW on Brock Lesnar and gets F-5ed through a titantron screen or sthing, I hope Shane O'Mac goes off the top of the cell through a table, i hope they fully follow through on Reigns/Triple H in the most obvious way possible and the fans vomit all over the whole thing from start to finish, i basically hope that it's an entertaining car crash of a show

BUT the point I'm making is that it doesn't really matter if WM is a busted flush bcuz this NXT special is gonna have me forgiving all their sins. which, as has been previously noted itt, is exactly what it's there for. 2 weeks man, I AM HYPED for this show and i am gonna be STAYING HYPED, believe dat

is aztec warfare the same week as takeover dallas and wm32 and i guess the post wm raw? cos that could truly make it the best ever week in wrestling history (if wm isnt shit)

I notice the later start time for TakeOver, it's at 10pm eastern. Which means I think I'll be going to bed early that Saturday night and setting the alarm before 3am.

I am tempted to finally get the network, how is it for people on laptops? How is live streaming in general, especially for bigger events?

Alternatively eh fuck it im poor and will spend that weekend trying to avoid spoilers and have a crazy wrestling monday off work.

I've rarely had a problem live streaming, whether on my laptop or through the big TV on the PS3 or Xbox One (occasionally on the Nexus tablet I have issues streaming archive stuff but I think that's more down to the Android app being crap). I think it's only dropped requiring a refresh only once, and that was so long ago I don't even remember what event that was. In general the worst that'll happen is the HD feed will drop to lower def for less than a minute.

yeah i never had problems with it

i've been having streaming problems since i changed my billing info :/ main page streaming isn't working and whenever i click one of the links i get "Bad request

Your browser sent a query this server could not understand."

:/ :/ :/

sometimes some things work

nvm clearing cookies and cache fixed it

anyway i have a basic laptop with integrated hd 4000 or whatever and streaming is fine, it's all capped at 720 and it doesn't frequently go below that. pre-hd vids look beautiful and play well.

the ui sucks however

that fenix mil muertes match last week!

got bored of trying to smash through an entire series of Lucha Underground so skipped right on to Ultima Lucha which was amazing as everyone had already said, am currently enjoying busting thu the 8 spidodes of LU Season 2 that have been broadcast so far in order to bring me up to date.
aside from that and NXT i've been watching a ton of Georgia Championship Wrestling 19880-1982 which has been incredibly fun so far.

BUT the most fun ive had with anything for months and momnths has been my rewatch of WMX7 which was one of the first shows i ever stayed up late on a school night and paid out cash monies to watch live as an 11 year old school boy and have always remembered fondly as a special and important event and here i am 15 yrs laters rewatching it in full for the first time and MY GOD but it is fucking unbelievable (a) how many of these guys would go on to become uberimportant within the world of professional grapple dudes and (b) how fucking awesome so many of these guys were at the whole grapplin thing in the first place

i mean it really has been probably been a full 15 years since i watched any of these matches but the TLC and it is all awesome and amazing and i honestly don't get how in the name of heaven a wrestling promoter could have a roster this stacked and contrive to fuck the whole thing up forever and ever man fuck vince mcmahon you hubristic chump, how the hell did you fuck this up??!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!?!?!????????????????

and yet perhaps there is some kind of salient pro-wrestling lesson in all of this in so far as you can have an entire roster filled with p. much peak-era, never-this-good-again Dwayne The Rock Johnson, Kurt Angle, Triple H, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Hardy Boyz, Eddie Guerrero, William Regal, Edge and Christian etc. etc. etc.

and yet none of it meant a thing in the end bcuz all of that shit up there ^^^^^^ multiplied up together is not even close to equaing to ONE HOT STONE COLD STEVE AUSTIN in the right place at the right time which all just shows what terrible taste yr mainstream wrestling fan has i guess

ONE HOT GUY in the right place at the right time is worth more than all the talent and deliberation and foresight in the world when it comes to rasslin is i guess what i am drunkenly and wordily trying to say. Roman Reigns is so boned

It's interesting to look back at WM17 just to see how many people from that show are still active on the roster (i.e. wrestling several times per yer). I count seven: HHH, Undertaker, the Dudleys, Jericho, Kane, and the Big Show. Plus The Rock has come back to wrestle a handful of times over the past few years, and Shane McMahon is coming back for Mania this year. And a few more are still around in non-wrestling roles: Bradshaw, E&C, Regal, and Albert.

Meanwhile, the roster overlap between WM17 and WM2, fifteen years further back, is literally zero.

got bored of trying to smash through an entire series of Lucha Underground so skipped right on to Ultima Lucha

yikes

how much did you miss? UL was great but not better than grave consequences, all night long, the trios tourney. and maybe aztec warfare if you didn't get that far. and the build to pentagon/vampiro! that's so much to miss. lol i literally immediately rewatched the entire series before UL, which took a while but it didn't get any less exciting. the only time it lagged was the build to UL, because it was a build, and all weekly wrestling shows are probably a lot better when there aren't any PPV builds.

but until that point (last 6-7 episodes before UL) i'd totally fallen in love with the show and couldn't stop thinking "holy shit how does this keep getting better". i'm jealous of people who haven't seen the whole thing straight through.

i know i should want everyone to watch S2 and spread the word and i know it's still Just Wrestling but it's one of those things where i can't possibly suggest skipping around. i'm not comparing it to hbo/amc shows (it is way better!) but i will respond like every loserdork dude when they hear someone just started GoT at season 14. like how dare you skip that one shot of bengala licking himself clean. how dare you.

that said i haven't seen the last uh SIX episodes because now i'm watching it with my partner and it's so fucking easy to get behind when you're watching with someone else

It's interesting to look back at WM17 just to see how many people from that show are still active on the roster (i.e. wrestling several times per yer). I count seven: HHH, Undertaker, the Dudleys, Jericho, Kane, and the Big Show. Plus The Rock has come back to wrestle a handful of times over the past few years, and Shane McMahon is coming back for Mania this year. And a few more are still around in non-wrestling roles: Bradshaw, E&C, Regal, and Albert.

Meanwhile, the roster overlap between WM17 and WM2, fifteen years further back, is literally zero.

― JRN, Sunday, 20 March 2016 03:42 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/9WnHNdxdQjk/hqdefault.jpg

ok lol i looked it up and really didnt expect the answer to be 1 person nikolai volkoff

Wowzer, apologies for drunken over-enthusiasm earlier this morning but what can you do?

yikes

how much did you miss? UL was great but not better than grave consequences, all night long, the trios tourney. and maybe aztec warfare if you didn't get that far. and the build to pentagon/vampiro! that's so much to miss. lol i literally immediately rewatched the entire series before UL, which took a while but it didn't get any less exciting. the only time it lagged was the build to UL, because it was a build, and all weekly wrestling shows are probably a lot better when there aren't any PPV builds.

but until that point (last 6-7 episodes before UL) i'd totally fallen in love with the show and couldn't stop thinking "holy shit how does this keep getting better". i'm jealous of people who haven't seen the whole thing straight through.

i know i should want everyone to watch S2 and spread the word and i know it's still Just Wrestling but it's one of those things where i can't possibly suggest skipping around. i'm not comparing it to hbo/amc shows (it is way better!) but i will respond like every loserdork dude when they hear someone just started GoT at season 14. like how dare you skip that one shot of bengala licking himself clean. how dare you.

yeah i get this and I didn't express myself very well at all when i posted this morning (what a surprise!). it's definitely not that i was bored with the show that made me decide to jump ahead. i probably jumped about 12 episodes or so, a bunch of which I actually saw at the time of broadcast but without much of a frame of reference (Grave Consequences I saw when it aired without any prior knowledge of the competitors, for instance).

thing is, much as i might enjoy having loads of stuff to watch all lined up for me, it just doesn't compare to "live" or "fresh" stuff or whatever that i get to watch completely blind at the point of broadcast. i spoilered Ultima Lucha for myself such a long time ago that I've known when Season 1 has been headed the whole time.

i just wanna watch this amazing wrestling show develop on a week-to-week basis as the shows are broadcast rather than letting them build up again to the point where it becomes this thing i've gotta sit down and do all over again. i'll probably go back and fill-in some of the episodes i missed at some point, but right now i feel like i'm missing out by not following season 2 as it airs.

eurgh that was supposed to be a quote, not italics

All these posts made me go back, as i'd also kinda stopped watching season 1 and immediately i got drago v aerostar and cage v puma so i was happy as larry. The drago v aerostar match is one where full suspension of disbelief had to happen as they go ten thousands miles a minute and never sell but whatever, it was fun.

Lucha Underground is one of the few wrestling shows where it's OK to be a bit behind what's 'fresh' because it's so self-contained. The closest comparison in 'conventional' pro wrestling is maybe CHIKARA with their season format.

i know what you mean but i still prefer to be up to date with it, reduces the risk of accidental and minor spoilers from some of the websites i read. once you're caught up with a show the new episodes start feeling like a treat each week in a way that just doesn't happen for me when i've got them all queued up.

Oh NEVER EVER READ LU WIKIS. I wanted to look up Rey Rey last week and i got burnt.

Yeah, WMX7 is amazing. What's weird is that it was the peak of the Attitude era but also its "jump the shark" moment -- and both were evident at the time. You have a stacked card, killer payoffs to all the big storylines, and a huge main event that delivered and then some. You also have the Rock's career as a full time wrestler coming to an end (after RAW the next night he was off to film a movie for the next three months), Austin's WTF were they thinking heel turn (in Texas???), and the WCW C-team watching the show from the nosebleeds in a prelude to the botched WCW invasion.

ok wtf the network just auto unsubscribed me? ugh

apparently it can't handle changing cc info so it just cancels your account

anyway i discovered the greatest taker promo of all time

https://40.media.tumblr.com/30185813c9277736dce2d3a7bf3f5cad/tumblr_o4brmewujE1qzb8z0o1_540.png

Not bothered watching Raw this week, but I saw the news about the IC title ladder match at Mania, which is basically Money in the Bank with the belt instead of the briefcase, which is fine by me.

idk, past time they abandoned thhe multi-man ladder match imo, money in the bank or otherwise. about a decade past time.

Yeah considering zayn-owens was their chance at a legit 5 star amazing match also *mania moment* its a load of shite. Even if it was a ladder match, those steen-genrico ladder matches were insane.

Otoh well done zach ryder, you'll finally be in a mania match 6 years too late.

Calm down peeps, this is WWE we're talking about! Things haven't got quite desperate enough for them to give what the IWC says they want.

just read the recap for raw, boy am i glad there's a reason they stuck sin cara and ryder in that match... when i saw the booking w/o context i was like "holy shit, just how many people ARE injured?"

I guess they wanted a car crash opening match like ... the exact same IC title ladder match they had last year. At least the champion isn't a lame duck this time. I still don't get they didn't do a fatal four way with Owens, Zayn, Miz, and Ziggler. Aren't there enough gimmick matches on the card already?

i know it's the equivalent of saying "i' watching the super bowl for the commercials" but at this point i think i am watching wrestlemania for the entrances

aare there any arnold movies coming out this year for hhh to ape in his entrance?

Oh man, I hadn't even thought to get excited for HHH's entrance this year. His last two were fantastic.

kinda hoping that kalisto comes to the ring riding a flying dragon and ryback comes out with tank treads stapled to each of his legs

yeah tbf no matter what's happening on the card it's impossible not to be at least a little bit excited about the pageantry. Full brass band to provide musical accompaniment during the New Day match! or can someone at least dig out a couple of Naitch's old robes for him Charlotte to wear to the ring? Provided he didn't sell them all on eBay in 2010 or whatever.

Raw wasn't up to much last night but it was so good seeing the Funker on WWE tv again! Cautiously optimistic for the Ambrose / Lesnar match following the Funk / Foley appearances, though I still think they need to do something special to establish Ambrose as a truly dangerous lunatic rather than just a kooky am-dram oddball. really get some hype behind him heading into the match. The old Roddy Piper "beer bottle over the head" spot or similar would serve. like, if you ever needed lessons in how to convince a bunch of slack-jawed rassle-fan boobs that you were a legit crazy man....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzvNPq_5P2g

may the lord bless thee and keep thee, Hot Rod, and flights of angels sing thee to thy rest!

i like how 3/7 of the IC ladder match were literally introduced as a joke

i guess you could handwave it as owens is a heel so he was just fucking with the real ("real") competitors but really it just came off as lol these guys suck

that said i would almost be into one of them winning over anyone else in that match (don't want ziggler/miz to win because zzzzzzz, kinda don't want don't want owens/zayn to win so they can feud without the belt)

thing is it can't be ryder because he's working nxt and it can't be sin cara because seriously are the lucha dragons going to hold the us and inter? but... fuck that leaves stardust. make the cody rhodes face turn now and give him the belt? idk wrestlemania is stupid

^ as if that's the only reason it sohudn't be sin cara lol

think it's got Sami Zayn written all over it tbh, but then i'm applying logic to the situation and shit, can't be banking on them doing the same. surely gonna be either that or Owens to retain though.

I'd actually quite like to see them have a good long run fighting over the belt, the way Jericho and Benoit did way back when. start it off in singles, have it get increasingly heated with the gimmick matches and the uber-personal promos, maybe have them trade the belt a bit; they could go till Summerslam with that.

again, i don't know why the hell they wouldn't do that as a proper exciting upper mid-card feud is exactly what the show has needed for god knows how long and it would be the making of both Zayn and Owens. but i daresay they'll rush the whole thing through in a month and a half post-Mania with a bunch of distraction finishes and 3 minute Raw matches.

That would be incredible. Also zayn has never got his comeuppance on owens, and to somehow have him win the multi man stuff or screwy finishes or keep zayn on a leash until summerslam or even wm33?

God knows theyd have no idea how to pull something like that off though.

loool New Day to induct the Freebirds into the HoF, this company is hilarious

http://www.rollingstone.com/sports/features/the-rise-and-fall-of-wrestlings-weed-dealing-cat-breeding-phenom-20160323?

that was a fun read Mordy! the "old" wrestling industry can never truly die while you've still got fuck-ups like Teddy stumbling around.

so according to Meltzer's recap, the following are just some of the matches happening in and around Dallas this weekend -

Reigns - HHH
Shane - Taker
Lesnar - Ambrose
Sasha - Charlotte - Becky
Styles - Jericho
Joe - Balor
Zayn - Nakamura
Bayley - Asuka
American Alpha - Dash/Dawson
Aries - Corbin
Sabre Jr. - Will Ospreay
Ricochet - Ospreay
Timothy Thatcher - Marty Scurll
Adam Cole - ACH
Kyle O'Reilly - Matt Sydal
Kyle O'Reilly vs Adam Cole
Young Bucks - Motor City Machine Guns
Roderick Strong - Bobby Fish
Ospreay - Scurll
Chris Hero - Sabre Jr.
Ibushi/Gargano/Perkins - Ospreay/Scurll/Tommy End

won't all be available at once of course, but that is still a LUDICROUS amount of wrestling. and that's not even counting the Ric Flair pre-Wrestlemania party at a local bar/restaurant!!! god i would kill to be in Dallas this weekend

who is will ospreay? i guess i stopped following indies.

he's one of the new English school of guys that are making waves at the moment, a high-flier up there with Ricochet and Ibushi for smoothness. Meltzer loves him and has been giving him increasingly rave reviews as he's emerged over the last year or two (to the extent that he's called it that Ospreay vs Ricochet or Ospreay vs Sabre Jr. will be the match of the weekend.

his profile's about to take a jump it seems cause he's signed up with NJPW and he's booked to face Kushida for the junior's title at Invasion Attack next month. Not a bad way to debut!

Yep, Ospreay is great - impressive high-flyer with remarkable body control, and top-drawer heel charisma. He'll be a star in New Japan no doubt.

Takeover Dallas and Mania predictions, anyone?

Takeover:

Aries
Nak
American Alpha
Crews
Joe
Bayley

Mania:

Taker
Reigns
Ambrose
Styles
Charlotte
Owens
New Day

what do u think they're going to do w/ shane after taker wins?

Probably nothing. Shane goes back to working behind the scenes and appearing on camera once in a while (assuming he's back working for the company full time again) and the Authority goes on being the Authority.

Aries Corbin (it's about time he won a big one, and Aries will do ok without this one)
Nak - i can't imagine sami winning but i wouldn't mind either way, prob my most hyped match of the weekend
American Alpha - please yes
Crews - this can be the only outcome, right???
Joe - now or never i guess
Bayley Asuka - joe/asuka at the top of the div is just too exciting to imagine not happening, and bayley to wwe seems inevitable

Mania:

Taker - how not?
Reigns - given last year's swerve, there's gotta be SOMETHING this year that fucks it up, and reigns/brose standing tall only for brose to take out roman seems right
Ambrose - yeah
Styles - if he loses, this never ends does it?
Charlotte Sasha - not sure if it's my head or heart but i can't see sasha not walking away with it. bosses gotta boss
Owens Ryder or Stardust - i can imagine a wacky swerve where KO/Zayn cancel each other out, Zig/Miz cancel each other out, Sin Cara falls off the steps on the way to the ring, one of these two steals one for a "wtf(tm) moment sponsored by digiornio" or whatever
New Day League - why would the champs bother winning a non-title match even at wm?

(Andre) Kane - and then he retires lol jk idk let's just #prayforcesaro
Kalisto - i don't think i hate anyone more than ryback, don't make me pick him
Nobody - divas vs divas is a lose-lose

I'll stick to NXT predictions first, not really thought too much about Mania yet

Corbin / Aries I can't pick tbh. do you wanna start Aries off with a debut loss? do you want to job out Corbin's "I hate indie geeks and I'm better than them" gimmick just as it starts getting good? Let's say a non-finish with Corbin beating Aries' ass post-match, it's about time he got some proper heat on him.

Crews / Drifter who gives a fuck, they need to go back to the drawing board with Crews in a big way imo, Drifter has been getting a nice little push so maybe he takes this?

Nakamura winning is the most predictable result of the weekend, there's just no chance in hell that he doesn't get this. Zayn will probably win at WM so it's fine, you always lose on your way out of the "territory" (you know HHH loves that kinda shit)

American Alpha are definitely winning here I think.

For the two singles titles... i dunno actually. Asuka's definitely getting the belt at some point but I could see Bayley clinging on for the next Takeover show, don't really see any need to rush this change through.

Balor might turn sometime soon I guess? he badly needs it and bringing in the Bullet/Balor Club dudes here to help him retain would be a pretty great shock ending to set up a Balor / Nakamura program maybe? yeah i dunno, apparently Nak is gonna be working Jericho through the summmer for the main roster Japanese shows so who the fuck knows. Balor vs returning Itami? I'd be pleased to see Joe win it but I wouldn't be surprised if they keep the belt off him and he's there to function as an upper-card gatekeeper.

Also first confirmed names for the Cruiserweight Invitational thing - Rich Swann, Johnny Gargano, Zack Sabre Jr., Tommaso Ciampa, Noam Dar, Ho Lun Lun, Akira Tozawa.

idk anything about Ho Lun Lun or Tozawa, quite excited about the other guys. Seems like they're pushing for relatively big guns as indy performers go. King Cuerno was approached but is tied down to his Lucha Underground / AAA deal.

It's repeated so often nowadays but it very much bears repeating - it is CRAZY how much the indy and international scenes bleed into the WWE right now. like there is now a clearly defined path from Korakuen Hall or your local high-school gym to the main WWE roster, Wrestlemania etc. When you remember how things were even like 6 or 7 years ago it's just fucking nuts

Winners I feel moderately certain of: Asuka, Nakamura, Styles, Lesnar, and Reigns.

The match I'm looking forward to most, by far, is Alpha/Revival, in part because I really don't know what they'll do. I'm most intrigued by the possibility that the Revival might win clean. That would further the storyline they've set up with Jordan and Gable never being able to win the big one (stretching back to their amateur days), which would give some character to this feud beyond good guys who win a lot vs. bad guys who win a lot. Plus it would cement Dash and Dawson as tag team kingpins, making it that much more meaningful when J&G finally take the titles down the road in the 2/3 falls match they've been workshopping at house shows.

Then again, I saw a guy on another wrestling board point out that there are no other major matches on the show that allow for a big crowd-pleasing babyface victory. That does make me think the Revival are probably going down.

in NXT i've got corbin, nakamura, american alpha, crews, joe + bayley in gutsy all heart title retention that proves she's bonafide - can win against the monster - before rematch formally gives title over to asuka (and sends her up to raw). raw divas division is still a little cluttered i think and nxt a lot of the next gen of women don't seem ready to take the next step. like if they send up bayley who feuds with asuka? you already know she can beat emma + dana w/ ease. carmella, alexa bliss, and nia jax are all getting there but none seem like credible champion threats.

mania i think i'm going to be contrarian - hhh goes over reigns in main event bc they're scared of the boos, lesnar obv, styles, sasha banks (50/50 on this one), i say owens retains, new day. is the new day match really non-title? that's absurd. also - i think shane over taker bc why bring him back and all of this just to drop it? it seems more reasonable to me that this is taker's last wrestlemania than that shane came back just to lose this match.

for me the a big sign that shane's going to win is his semi-shoot comments about how the company's going down the toilet with vince and trips and steph in charge, i don't imagine you legitimately badmouth your own product unless there's some kind of shake-up on the horizon

i'm hoping for a reigns win + heel turn but it could be difficult to do well since the fans couldn't possibly boo him any more than they already do. maybe attacking the rock for some reason could do the trick

The trick would be to have him turn heel on the segment of the crowd that still likes him, without flipping his detractors the other way. I think if he snapped and went nuts on Ambrose with a chair like he did on Triple H a few months ago, a lot of people would go "whoa, Reigns is cool now!" (Although that would probably still be preferable to what we've got now.)

nxt

drifter but really who cares?
asuka, and bayley debuts on monday hugging/consoling becky about her wm loss
the revival, for reasons JRN said earlier
nak but i secretly think a double countout/dq or something; if only matches had time limits still
aries wins w/ a shock roll-up or something and corbin fucking destorys him and any indie guys who come out to help him (the czw ref would be a good one here, the crowd would get it) and maybe also regal etc. to get heat despite losing
joe? just knowing anderson and gallows are signed makes this so hard to predict

potentially the best wwe show since wm30, best north american show since ultima lucha and if it actually hits every top note, potentially one of the best shows of all time. its an understatement to say im excited. also knowing who the fans are, knowing see joe and asuka win won't be seeing *heels* win, especially as they'll still be loved, and it will be the first time almost all of the crowd would have seen these respected performers.

mania
armbar - eh strowman?
divas thing - eh
usos but eh
new day, hope they have a fun surprise partner
sasha, with a snoop performance*
reigns
lesnar
the fucking miz, after zayn/owens take each other out
styles
shane

*surely making this the most obvious winner of the whole weekend

monday night raw
shane shows how different things will be by starting raw as a mcmahon giving a 20 minute promo
bayley debuts as becky's mate, they have a tag match against idk team bad
zayn beats the miz for the title, having wrestled 3 big shows in 5 days (on tv this would be a big thing, forgetting house shows)
one of cena/rollins/cesaro returns and bullet club wreck the party
reigns/ambrose possible party tag, possible dissention, possible rollins return idk
lesnar's mysteriously disappeared
taker retires
a fucking great raw with a horrrrrrrrible crowd, a good enough raw that hey maybe this shane&change is shoot, only for it all to go back to shit the next week.

Wrestlemania then -

New Day are gonna win, apparently something about this performance (possibly the partner?) is gonna be a huge deal - Rocky?! actually here's hoping a triumphant Hogan comes out to help the black dudes against the dastardly foreigners and everyone forgets about that old "disgusting racist tirade" or whatever. i mean they're already using New Day to symbolically cleanse at least one old racist of his old racist sins at the Hall of Fame (were Terry Gordy and Gorgeous Jimmy racists? who am i kidding this is rasslin, of course they were - ok, three old racists), so i guess what's one more?

ARMBAR will be Kane or a Wyatt
Women's match is tough to call, though let's say Sasha because I want her to win most.
Styles wins natch
Zayn will win the IC title to set up a run with Owens. That way he doesn't lose any momentum from losing to Nak the night before

Lesnar beats Ambrose in a match that I hope is gonna be more Terry Funk / Atsushi Onita Texas Death Match than WWE "hardcore" comedy fuckery, but it's Dean Ambrose so who knows, it might be kooky as all get out

For the top two matches I don't have a fucking clue what's gonna happen, which is totally the ideal situation if you're not especially excited about the matches themselves (I'm not) because intrigue levels are through the roof and i really can't wait.

I mean they might run with Reigns beating Hunter clean and taking the boos, just put the HIAC on last. but i think they've gotta do something here - Reigns to turn heel seems the obvious shout, seeing as most of the audience are already booing him.

also - i think shane over taker bc why bring him back and all of this just to drop it? it seems more reasonable to me that this is taker's last wrestlemania than that shane came back just to lose this match.

disagree with Mordy's point here - i think Shane's return has got "OH SHIT EVERYONE] IS INJURED ALL HANDS ON DECK" written all over it. they brought him back specifically to work this feud, to get the big nostalgia pop and to put a recognisable face on the poster opposite Taker (and god only knows how tedious the build to Mania would have been without this storyline providing at least a little intrigue bcuz it's been pretty fucking tedious as is).

the way the storyline has just kinda lurched from point to point with no clear aim or direction in mind bears this out to me - they don't know what the fuck they're doing! i take the point about Shane needing to win because they've been burying the product on air and if HHH/Steph stay in control then they're kayfabe saying "hey this show sucks! please keep watching" but they do that kind of shit on air all the fucking time, i've lost count of the number of times they've told the audience "we don't care what you think" in so many words.

i'd be more surprised at Shane sticking around long term in a GM role or similar than I would to find that he was always only gonna be around for one match and in an attempt to build hype around this ludicrous feud they said some shit on air that maybe they shouldn't have and in an effort to raise stakes theyve booked themselves into a corner that should have been easily avoidable. none of that is surprising, they ALWAYS do this shit.

if Shane does somehow "win" then we have to be talking about crazy levels of interference, gimmickry and underhanded tactics. because NO WAY does Undertaker take a clean loss from Shane McMahon at Wrestlemania then retire. Like not one iota of a chance that happens. This guy has put over like three guys in his entire career (no one talks about it though because it's Taker and it's the gimmick and so on). Not in any reality does Shane McMahon get anything even approaching a clean pin on Taker at Mania.

Er i kinda think id be shocked if taker actually won cuz

1. Retirement stip, headlining potentially biggest show ever, in home state

2. The booking has been sooooo much about "we understand the product is shit" that then to have vince 'win' and go HAHAHAHAHAHA YOULL WATCH WHAT I TELL YOU the next night is possibly going to do more damage than wcw jan 4 1999.

3. This is gonna have a billion run ins, there is no need for "but shanes not a wrestler!" Type arguments. Dunno who it is who helps Shane (bullet club, cena, cesaro, rollins, reigns, hell there are vague rumours of kurt angle) but vince and steph are likely to get involved, maybe hunter, even bro kane maybe. It has huge clusterfuck potential.

4. See #2. They have been steadily losing viewers and hearing resentment from their remaining fans for a while now. To have roman win clean&babyface and not hear the boos and then taker win so theyve really admitted they know they have problems and dont gaf, could really stop a lot more people watching/subscribing.

the retirement stip in the home state thing I get, that's a totally valid point that i hadn't considered earlier and I agree that it lends some credence to the idea that Taker might lose here.

but i disagree with a lot of the rest of what you said.

2. The booking has been sooooo much about "we understand the product is shit" that then to have vince 'win' and go HAHAHAHAHAHA YOULL WATCH WHAT I TELL YOU the next night is possibly going to do more damage than wcw jan 4 1999.

a little dramatic perhaps? you're probably right that they will look to avoid that particular ending, at least they would obviously never phrase it that way. there are always opportunities to write yourself out of a difficult situation if they can get creative enough.

but let's be serious here about what it would actually mean in real terms if they went in that direction or similar. talking about anything they could possibly do creatively being as destructive to business as late-period WCW is just wrong, straight up.

the company is more profitable than ever. they're about to break their all-time attendance record with one of the weakest Wrestlemania cards in years. I'm struggling to think of one this weak in the last decade tbh. the brand is the selling point. it's not down to any one draw to carry the show, so it doesn't matter a great deal who gets the world title. there is almost nothing they could do to tank business now, it isn't feasible.

no one's cancelling their Network subscriptions if events at Wrestlemania don't go their way. the people that care about this shit are gonna keep paying out their 10 dollars a month because it's the only place they get to see Nakamura, Balor, Joe et al. and watch old Bret Hart PPV matches.

possibly going to do more damage than wcw jan 4 1999.

3. This is gonna have a billion run ins, there is no need for "but shanes not a wrestler!" Type arguments. Dunno who it is who helps Shane (bullet club, cena, cesaro, rollins, reigns, hell there are vague rumours of kurt angle) but vince and steph are likely to get involved, maybe hunter, even bro kane maybe. It has huge clusterfuck potential.

come on now man. I could maybe see Cena getting involved on Shane's behalf to set up the Cena / Taker showdown at some future date (but if Taker retires...?) or if Reigns turns heel then he might get involved somehow, but I'd be prepared to bet my life's savings that none of those others come within a million miles of the Wrestlemania main event. Cesaro is wishful thinking, Bullet Club are nowhere near well-known enough to have that spot, Kurt Angle I still don't see back in the WWE with his medical record.

I guess that even post-Streak i still just buy into the idea of Undertaker at Wrestlemania? Or more importantly I think the decision makers at the WWE (and at WM that includes Taker, no way he does shit he doesn't want to at these shows) still buy into the idea of Undertaker at Wrestlemania. I think everyone involved would want to maintain the unique, once-in-a-lifetime vibe that Lesnar win still has.

Really I would love to see Shane win and for them to revamp everything, maybe bring back the brand split, make Smackdown something worth watching again etc. all of that is totally awesome in principle and they need to do it at some point. i'm just not sure i've seen enough evidence of the will to do it, as yet? this is it tho, this is why this Mania is working from an intrigue perspective. so many possiblities! such high stakes!

*but I'd be prepared to bet my life's savings that none of those others come within a million miles of the Wrestlemania main event. Cesaro is wishful thinking, Bullet Club are nowhere near well-known enough to have that spot, Kurt Angle I still don't see back in the WWE with his medical record.

should clarify that I was referring to your parenthetical examples here, obviously Vince / Steph / Hunter are gonna have their sticky fingers all over this shit

I wouldn't read much into Shane's semi-shoot comments. If they were so self-aware about the problems with their product then they wouldn't have Reigns fighting for the belt.

Reigns doesn't need a heel turn he needs a personality beyond "big guy who used to be in the Shield".

I'm kind of dreading Bayley getting called up to the main roster, she'll be jobbing to Eva Marie in three minute matches on RAW before you can blink. I still think she's winning today and staying in NXT for a few more months.

disagree with Mordy's point here - i think Shane's return has got "OH SHIT EVERYONE] IS INJURED ALL HANDS ON DECK" written all over it.

Totally agree. Six months ago the top matches were set to be Rock vs HHH, Lesnar vs Taker, Reigns vs Cena or Rollins. Then it was supposed to be Rollins vs HHH, Taker vs Cena. They had to rebook a bunch of times because of the injuries, I can't see them suddenly deciding "well, our top guys are injured, so I guess we'll change the direction of the company".

4. See #2. They have been steadily losing viewers and hearing resentment from their remaining fans for a while now. To have roman win clean&babyface and not hear the boos and then taker win so theyve really admitted they know they have problems and dont gaf, could really stop a lot more people watching/subscribing.

What suicide commando said. They've legit sold 85 000 tickets to Mania plus 20 000 more for NXT and Raw, Vince is laughing too hard on the way to the bank to take the "problems" they half-assedly admit to on TV seriously.

I guess so. And i guess i could have worded that less dramatically. But mania will always sell out. Raws, smackdowns, house shows have all been on the downslide though, iirc, in tickets and ratings. And the fingerpoke of doom example i used, well it didnt kill wcw; but it sure as hell made a lot of people feel like turning the channel.

I also dont think shane winning will change anything, maybe some call-ups happen in his name like steph and the #divasrevolution but it'll still be presented as a big "we fucked up look we can be betterz"

As if there wasn't enough wrestling on this weekend, i've decided to make myself a little custom PPV made up of past WM matches to watch on my afternoon off and get myself in the right mood. Using this format, wrestlers can only be used once -

Opener
Tag Title match
Misc. grudge / spectacle match
IC title match
Undertaker/Streak match
World title match

Right now I think I've settled on:

Bret Hart vs Owen Hart WM X
TLC II WM X7
Edge vs Mick Foley WM 22
Macho Man vs Ricky Steamboat WM 3
Undertaker vs Shawn Michaels WM 25
Stone Cold vs The Rock WM X7

But it took me ages to whittle it down, there were so many permutations of this that would've worked. No Bryan / HHH, HBK / Razor, Savage / Flair, Austin / Bret, Rock / Hogan etc.

If i watch all that lot I might do it again using different matches. it's a fun game to play!

Cos im bored at work im gonna try and figure out how to do an awesome version of that using none of the wrestlers you're already watching. Well except Taker has to be in a taker match. Also you'll see Edge twice... sorry.

Opener - Bryan/hhh wm30
Tag title - The British Bulldogs/Dream Team wm2 (ewwww how many TEEEEEEERRRRRRRIBLEEE tag title matches have their been? I had to do some hardcore wiki-ing and even then this is wm2 which is the worst mania
Grudge/spectacle - money in the bank wm24
IC - Chris Jericho/william regal wm17
Streak - Taker/flair wm18
Title - Hogan/Andre wm3

Aw shit shoulda have gone brock-kurt as my main event and demolition v. Andre and haku, meaning you could do 2 rounds of this without hogan

Ok second go-

Opener - hhh-bryan wm30
Tag title - andre/haku-demolition wm6
Grudge/spectacle - mitb wm24
IC - warrior/rude wm5
Taker streak - taker/batista wm22
Title - hogan/warrior wm6

Lol i cocked up again, no warrior-hogan, def kurt v. Brock

Doing that really made me appreciate wm30/31 and even sunday. There have been soooo many bad manias, or ones saved by like one or two matches.

For example, wm12 doesnt get shit on enough. What a fucking stinker, only goldust-piper was any fun and the iron man was not only awful but half the fucking card.

(Taker-diesel is also alright.)

Another version, trying to pick completely new matches:

Opener - Shield vs Big Show, Orton, Sheamus (WM29)
Tag title - TLC II, E&C vs Dudleys vs Hardys (WM17)
Grudge/spectacle - Adrian Adonis vs Roddy Piper (WM3)
IC - HBK vs Razor Ramon (Ladder Match) (WM10)
Taker streak - vs HHH (WM28)
Title - Hogan vs Savage (WM5)

The opener wasn't a great match, but I wanted it for the star power.

Wrestlemania title matches (no tlc edition)

Im doing shit today, can a mod change that title to be tag title matches

Ive always wanted to go to mania but fuck me, whats the point when its in a stadium this big to be in the cheap seats? The hell in a cell cage looks fucking tihy

Wm32 set spoiler -https://m.imgur.com/a/JPgDD

Roman Reigns entrance is gonna last about fifty minutes.

My NXT predictions:

Aires/Corbin - Aires with a DQ win, so they can keep it hot for a regular show rematch
Revival/AA - American Alpha get the titles, but they'll have a rematch soon (maybe 2/3 falls?)
Sami/Shinsuke - Nakamura, it HAS to be
Bayley/Asuka - I think this one might go to a draw, a double countout maybe
Apollo/Drifter - I feel like they're gonna sacrifice Crews here; I didn't feel that way when he lost to Corbin in London
Finn/Joe - Balor wins, again; I kinda don't want this one to go on last, there's more anticipation for the rest of the card

And my WrestleMania guesses:

Kalisto/Ryback - Kalisto gets the pin after The Ryback does something stupid to himself
10-Divas tag - Brie gets the feel-good pin for her team, but Lana does something mean after
Usos/Dudleys - I think the Dudleys might get this one, if they're going to stick around
Battle Royal - If Beef Stroganoff's in it, he'll win it
New Day/The Lads - The Rock will team with New Day, People's Elbow with a Francesca 2 serenade
Styles/Jericho - Styles, but not with the Styles Clash
IC ladder match - The heart says Sami Zayn, but the head says KO
Divas triple threat - Charlotte keeps the belt; I hope this is a good match and I hope they give it 10+ minutes
Ambrose/Lesnar - Lesnar, but it'll be close; the look on Brock's face on Raw last week tells me he likes working with Dean
Shane/Taker - Shane, after a whole slew of shenanigans
Triple H/Roman - Trips keeps the title after Seth Rollins interferes on his behalf b/c it's 'best for business'

(Im actually super excited to properly see the set up and entrances and yes im just using this to hope reigns is not man of the people shield guy. And maybe even gets new gear.)

Combined ages of the likely main eventers at Mania this year (51 + 46 = 97) is not much less than Vince and Hogan at the time of their WM 19 match (which was promoted as if it was the main event, even though it wasn't on last) (57 + 49 = 106).

Thinking back over it, I wouldn't be surprised to see Nakamura/Zayn go to some kind of interference-based non-finish, to keep Zayn strong-ish for his move up to the main roster while setting up Nakamura's first (and possibly only) NXT feud.

nahh they've gotta put Shinsuke over here I think. it doesn't hurt Zayn at all to do the job here if they book him strong coming out of it, just like it didn't hurt Owens to lose to Balor (on a show that was way more main roster than NXT in fact) when he was on his way out of NXT.

Also, speaking of Nakamura..... MAJOR FUCKING SPOILERS FOR LATER TONIGHT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik8072ewnfY&app=desktop

so this sounds like a pretty dope theme! i am sooooooo ready for this

this thread has so many words in it aaaaahhhhh

FPing anyone who does that "ARMBAR" thing keep that sad reddit shit out of here

anyway i'm going all in on shane winning if i'm right everyone owes me a beer

nahh they've gotta put Shinsuke over here I think. it doesn't hurt Zayn at all to do the job here if they book him strong coming out of it, just like it didn't hurt Owens to lose to Balor (on a show that was way more main roster than NXT in fact) when he was on his way out of NXT.

Kevin Owens only lost two singles matches in his NXT run, and the other one was a DQ. By the time he lost that ladder match, he'd crushed Sami Zayn, racked up a bunch of title defenses, and beaten John Cena clean on Raw. He had a lot of momentum.

Zayn, on the other hand, is coming off of a major loss, and hasn't beaten anyone on TV other than Adam Rose and Tye Dillinger since he came back. So they might want to protect him a bit more here.

But you could be right. It may not matter, since most of the main roster audience doesn't care about this stuff and the NXT fans will love him regardless. That seems to be their thinking with Enzo and Cass.

network is shit for me right now but pretty good start so far

i am very pumped !!

i love that i have no idea how the rest of the show is gonna go !

ibushi in the takeover crowd!

fantastic tag match i thought

That tag team match was Rockers vs Brainbusters to a tee. Loved it.

JR and Kota Ibushi in attendance! !!

That was incredible. Jordan & Gable are possibly the guys in nxt i'm the most excited aboutfor the future.

Ibushi!

Corbin's gear is actually badass.

Baron Corbin's jacket is badass

xpost!

lol there is a guy in the crowd with one of those jericho light up arms jackets. he had to get that custom made.

well there you go. this weekend just peaked. that was brutal.

That was everything I could have expected. At times it felt like Nak was a bit too preoccupied with getting his signature stuff in, but the finishing stretch was awesome and he already came off looking like the biggest star in NXT.

that was a very pleasant blend of wwe/njpw. that was so good. i honestly saw more in nak there than i have in njpw (but maybe i'm just conditioned). for a match with 0 build that was perfect.

You could feel at the start of the women's title match that the crowd was burned out from Zayn and Nak. The submission counters were awesome. I smell a rematch.

Balor is infringing on Dean Ambrose's gimmick!

demon entrances getting worse and worse imo

can the dreads at least

amazing wrestlemania guys. i doubt the rookies will be able to top it on sunday.

Odd match. The first ten minutes were a chaotic war, it was exactly what was missing from their previous match. The finish was out of nowhere. No clue what they do with Joe now.

On second thought, they'll probably have a Nakamura vs Joe #1 contenders match, with Nak going on to face Balor. I'm there for all of that.

what's joe done to deserve another #1 contenders match?

http://s10.postimg.org/dla236p7d/finn.jpg

officially starting the "finn pooped" rumor you heard it here first

Really fun show. Zayn/Nakamura was match of the night.

I'm a little deflated by the finish to the main event. I'm not much of a Finn Balor fan, whereas I think Samoa Joe may be the best wrestler in the world right now, and winning the title here seemed like such a natural arc for him. I was having visions of a Joe/Nakamura title match, and then mall goth Balor won with a flash pin. Bummer.

One other thing that struck me during the show was that Zayn/Nakamura and Bayley/Asuka were both cases of a humble hometown hero against an eccentric killer from Japan, and in both matches the latter wrestler won. And they were back to back!

i'm guessing they didn't want all three belts changing hands. i think joe's face getting busted might've made that match weirder than it was supposed to be. would've been a great time for bullet club to show up for a double turn, joe was already basically a babyface for the first 10 minutes and finn was MIA

asuka/bayley was good but i hate how often they do face-passes-out-slowly finishes. that should be rare. fast passouts are fine. but bayley passing out wasn't the right move.

I'm inclined to agree, especially since they just did that finish with the Joe vs. Zayn 2/3 falls match. Also, the Asuka Lock doesn't look like it should make anyone pass out. And I wish she would stop crossing her feet when she does it, that's a rookie grappler's mistake. (It was a good match, though!)

Watching it live, I thought the dueling submissions in Bayley vs Asuka was the setup to the finishing stretch of the match. That's why I think they're doing a rematch. If so I'm fine with Bayley passing out -- it gets the submissions over more as viable finishers and the story leading into the rematch writes itself.

what's joe done to deserve another #1 contenders match?

Nothing, but beating him still means something and they might as well use that to build someone else to challenge Balor.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BDrmmL_gFCh/

i agree there'll be a rematch, but doesn't bayley tapping out also get the submission over? not every babyface needs to be a mini-cena NGUer

WWE's fault for always equating tapping out with yellowbelliedness, but still. bayley doesn't need "never taps out" to be a part of her character right now and she doesn't need to be protected from looking like the loser of a match after losing (same with sami). save it for dean on sunday.

I meant that they helped get over submissions as holds that could end the match at any time. They're mostly treated like crowd participation spots in WWE -- you see a babyface in a sleeper hold and you know it's not the finish, you know you'll see the arm drop twice and on the third time the babyface starts a comeback and gets the crowd charged up.

Basically no submission gets taken seriously in WWE unless they've already done a hot stretch with trading finishers and a bunch of near falls. I guess that's why the crowd was in shock at the finish to Bayley vs Asuka, they were expecting a comeback and another five minutes of the match (and so was I).

what a fuckin great show. Zayn / Nakamura match of the night, fans really took it to the next level. Sami brought excess levels of fire though so kudos to him, he really went step-for-step the whole way through.

tag match was basically perfect except for that one fuck-up by the Revival and even that wouldn't have been a problem whatsoever if it wasn't for the crowd chanting "you fucked up" and "botchamania" at them, probably the shittiest and most negative of all possible crowd reactions, especially during such a balls-out amazing match. But yeah, this was like the best possible version of the Steiners vs the Brainbusters fantasy match, the Revival's heeling was A++++++, they really brought it last night.

Women's match was a cool change of pace. the Nak/Zayn match didn't burn the fans out so much as torch the whole fucking arena and scorch the ground it stands on, so it was always gonna be tough for Bayley and Asuka. but the shift in focus onto submission work and counter-wrestling was great, brought the crowd back in really well i thought. agreed on them going to that particular well a bit too often with the finish, but it sets up a rematch that i'm excited to see so that's fine.

The main event was fucking nuts for a while there. a shame really because by the end it had kind of reverted to just your bog-standard "good wrestlers doing good wrestling" kind of a match, but that opening stretch with Joe getting busted open and then just hauling off and kicking Finn's ass from pillar to post was so thrilling.

Agreed that when he gets into full-on beast mode like that there's pretty much no one better in the world than Joe. You could see that the fans were feeling it too, it seems like he might have actually turned face last night. Was convinced while watching that he was gonna continue beasting Finn right the way through to the end and the Bullet Club were gonna show up to save Balor and instigate the double turn. I'd have preferred this finish I think but then I suppose we dont know what they're doing with the Bullet Club dudes just yet.

Anwyay this was fuckin great man who could've predicted this, Nakamura / Joe when it happens will be all-time and teasing us with fucking Kota Ibushi, gaaaaaah <3 u NXT

I'm sure Ibushi will do the Global Cruiserweight tournament and wants to continue freelancing, but we've seen that NXT will bring in guys for one shot deals in the past (Liger), and therefore I've realized that IBUSHI VS NAKAMURA III IS A THING THAT MIGHT HAPPEN IN WWE.

what's joe done to deserve another #1 contenders match?

The finish was Hart/Piper at WMVIII, or a twist on it anyway. Joe has legitimate grievance to take up with Regal should they intend to continue with the feud.

Speaking of classic finishes, Bayley/Asuka was a pretty obvious twist on Hart/Austin from WM13. You'd think a crowd of smarks would get that but no, what a cold reaction to Asuka. Yeah, I get it, you wanted Bayley to win, but aren't these kinds of expectations killing the surprise, and ultimately the enjoyment, of the show?

Also, I haven't seen any news about the event staffer who got laid out when Bálor went over the railing near the start of the main event. I assume it was a shoot because the camera cut away as soon as you saw the guy out cold face down on the floor, and the direction was weird for a few seconds as they couldn't exactly cut back to Joe gushing blood (and they had a tight zoom on Bálor when he came up over the guardrail a minute later).

I am so happy i got up to watch it live at 3am this morning but i really wanna rewatch takeover dallas again tonight, i def dozed off during the womens match and the title match a bit. One rewatch and i think i'd rate it as highly as mitb2011, wrestlemania 30, wk9 and ultima lucha as one of the best 5 shows ive seen this decade.

The only negative I can come up with is the constant stoppages during Joe vs Balor that prevented them from hitting that extra gear. Otherwise this show accomplished *everything* it set out to do. I haven't seen Ultima Lucha, but other than the three shows you mentions, I'm hard pressed to think of another major PPV like that and with this type of match quality up and down the card.

extreme rules 2012 is my other go to

The match quality was great at Extreme Rules 2012, but Brock losing in his first match back? In terms of booking, it doesn't compare with the other three (or Takeover Dallas).

So WHOSE EXCITED FOR WRESTLEMANIA WOOOOOOOOOO

Ok yeah but last year was a good un after a shit build

Yeah lookit people can whinge about the build and go on about nxt takeover as much as they like but if anyone thinks that this is gonna be anything other than fuxking dope well then they are dumb imo because this is wrestlemania and they're gonna be pulling out all possible stops.

Maybe less potential than usual for stone cold classic 'wrestling matches' than usual, but the clusterfuck / spectacle potential for all the main matches is massive

What time does it start over here? 2am? Im gonna get shit fucking faced tonight (best week ever at my business and i only know the one way to celebrate) and get like 2 hours sleep? I may need a sick bowl of nachos.

Nahh midnight start, 3 hour pre show starting at 9.think 7 hours might be a bit much all told but I'll probably stick it on before / after motd 2

Oh ok apologies in advanced for very drunk liveblogging then. Ive made bankroll, im going to the pub and then wrestle fucking mania!

A three-hour pre-show? Only if you're in the States and get the USA Network, no? The Network is repeating the Stone Cold/Foley podcast from last week at 9, then the pre-show at 10pm.

Scratch that - the USA Network pre-show is only the second hour of the network one. So it all starts at 10pm, not 9.

Right you are! Just the two hours for pre-show

I'm inclined to agree, especially since they just did that finish with the Joe vs. Zayn 2/3 falls match. Also, the Asuka Lock doesn't look like it should make anyone pass out. And I wish she would stop crossing her feet when she does it, that's a rookie grappler's mistake. (It was a good match, though!)

stoked for Asuka's first loss to result from getting footlocked because she crossed her ankles from the back

Samoa Joe headbutting an Irishman and bleeding himself is a near-fatal disaster for Samoan kayfabe imo

I also enjoyed Orc Warlord Baron Corbin

just watched Zack Sabre Jr. vs Will Ospreay from the Evolve show on Friday - not bad! i still feel like some of Sabre's schtick is a bit too cooperative looking, makes the match feel like an exhibition rather than a fight.

Will Ospreay looked athletically impressive but some of the shit he was doing seemed like pure overkill - there was at least 3 spots where Sabre tied him up for minutes on end in increasingly deadly-looking submission holds and literally the second Ospreay escaped he was running around throwing springboard phoenix splashes etc. sell something for at least a second you cunttttt

that said, there was a super sexy bit where Ospreay went for a standing shooting star press and ZS countered into some kind of triangle submission and it was excellent.

in other news that will surprise no one, independent wrestling crowds and independent wrestling commentary are both the dirt fuckin worst. everything about the crowd was hideous, it makes it tough to watch.

props to Chris Hero and Tommy End for using 'Blockbuster Night Pt. 2' by Run the Jewels as a theme, that's a heavy song to come to the ring to

Idk if i wanna know but what did the crowd do?

Shooting star into a triange seems INSANE; like i cant even figure out the logistics of that. Is their a gif?

Definitely want to see that ZSJ vs Ospreay match

From what I've seen of Ospreay when he does sell it's really corny Shawn Michaels tribute stuff where he's like wobbling his legs and crawling round doing goofy agonised faces (think he was like this vs Okada for RevPro in Reading last year)

Buuuut he's 22, plenty of time if he doesn't get hurt

possibly not a triangle i am terrible at calling moves like that - it may have been some type of armbar perhaps? anyway it involved zack sabre locking his feet behind ospreay's neck / shoulders in the way that a triangle would, so that's what i'm going with. no gif yet so far as i know i'm afraid, i grabbed the show off of xwt but it's only been up for a day or so.

crowd didn't do anything especially egregious i suppose, just fucking relentless with the "holy shit" "this is awesome" "this is wrestling" "both these guys" chants. and the commentators were practically joining in. and then they did the show of respect to rapturous applause that you get 3 times on every one of these shows. eruuugh can't stand it.

makes me wanna watch old videos of people hurling trash while Jerry Lawler gets his head shaved by Austin Idol. crazed drunken rednecks trying to scale the cage just to get near any motherfucker who dares lay hands on the King

i hate that there are no bad guys in wrestling basically, Nakamura / Zayn last night gets a pass because y'know, wowzers what a thing to have even happened on a WWE show, but as a rule, just give me a fucking bad guy man.

Baron Corbin ftw, I've been thinking about it a bit and like, this is a very fortunate dude imo, because he has been given / developed for himself the perfect gimmick at the perfect time and he is basically set up to have runs against ALL of the NXT stars and the Full Sail assholes are gonna hate him for it and it'll be fantastic and he'll be fantastic. even his look works in his favour here, becuase the point is precisely that he isn't Roman Reigns or whoever, he's this balding dude with just a bit of a gut, who is big enough and tall enough to pass himself off as "traditional WWE system guy" without being an obvious superstar in waiting. he's like a second rate WWE system guy. i'm really excited about what they do with him. give him the title soon and feud him with everyone imo

and he's heeling! he isn't doing suicide dives and playing for cheers or another fucking "this is awesome" chant, he's slapping on 5 minute rest holds and telling the audience that they're a bunch of fat mark pigs that need to sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up. "oh you wanna see Austin Aries do a bunch of cool shit?! well fuck you, have this chinlock instead" good on this guy for actually having a clue of what wrestling is supposed to be like

otm.

also im quite hammered so idk if i even make it to the start of mania, fuuuck why does it have to be sooo long away

one hour, i was almost asleep 20 mins ago but i'm starting to feel it now. so much potential for awesome happenings

Poor kalisto for being this early

snickers shane mcmahon vs the undertaker

never knew shane was branded

that Flo Rida / Jason Derulo track is one of the better ppv promo songs they've used in recent times i think. I would quite like to marry Renee Young.

noway i make it to 12am, let alone 4am.

also suicido whats yr feelings on xwt? i keep having to set up fake email accounts cos idk im not seeding enough or uploading enough or paying for it? i dont really understand why i cant hold down a membership for more than a week

also is there a funkadactyl whose butt finisher is called the rear view? i feel vaguely that is racist and sexist but im too drunk to type a real opinion.

xwt is good! classics is p. much my most visited website, it doesnt have everything that's out there by any means but it has a lot of it. bit of a chore building up a ratio as it always is with these things.

i paid for a seedbox for a couple of months and just downloaded all big new packs immediately and let them seed. i'm a couple of terrabytes to the good on both xwt and classics now and i've got loads of the stuff saved on an external harddrive anyway so i don't bother seeding too much anymore

ohh shit new Women's Championship! about time man

what is everyones thoughts where it comes to spoilers regarding tonight by the way?

should we do another thread or do a bunch of spoiler tags or?

i kind of feel these thread should just be a free for all but maybe we should just do like 10 big ***spoiler dont read any further*** posts first?

I'm so happy this is the end of ~diva~. that belt looks sweet, and isnt a fucking ugly butterfly vagina thing.

i feel vaguely that is racist and sexist

yeah can't be worrying about this shit on WM night. i mean it's awesome when they're not racist and sexist (yay for women, down with divas!) but life's too short

idk what is best or usual protocol wrt spoilers, kinda think you'd be a bit of a goof to come into the one wrestling thread during / after WM without having seen it and not expect to find spoilers, but i don't mind. new thread would be fine

lol speaking of racist, that's a pretty sweet traditional Samoan wardance from the Usos, you are correct Mauro Ranallo

im gonna do this as a spoiler tag, just so anyone with bookmarks don't get messed up

~~~~~FUCKING WRESTLEMANIA SPOILERS AFTER HERE~~~~~
~~~~~ watch it live @ http://live.wrestlingnetwork.tv/ ~~~~~
~~~~~FUCKING WRESTLEMANIA SPOILERS AFTER HERE~~~~~
~~~~~ watch it live @ http://live.wrestlingnetwork.tv/ ~~~~~
~~~~~FUCKING WRESTLEMANIA SPOILERS AFTER HERE~~~~~
~~~~~ watch it live @ http://live.wrestlingnetwork.tv/ ~~~~~
~~~~~FUCKING WRESTLEMANIA SPOILERS AFTER HERE~~~~~
~~~~~ watch it live @ http://live.wrestlingnetwork.tv/ ~~~~~
~~~~~FUCKING WRESTLEMANIA SPOILERS AFTER HERE~~~~~
~~~~~ watch it live @ http://live.wrestlingnetwork.tv/ ~~~~~
~~~~~FUCKING WRESTLEMANIA SPOILERS AFTER HERE~~~~~
~~~~~ watch it live @ http://live.wrestlingnetwork.tv/ ~~~~~
~~~~~FUCKING WRESTLEMANIA SPOILERS AFTER HERE~~~~~
~~~~~ watch it live @ http://live.wrestlingnetwork.tv/ ~~~~~
~~~~~FUCKING WRESTLEMANIA SPOILERS AFTER HERE~~~~~
~~~~~ watch it live @ http://live.wrestlingnetwork.tv/ ~~~~~
~~~~~FUCKING WRESTLEMANIA SPOILERS AFTER HERE~~~~~
~~~~~ watch it live @ http://live.wrestlingnetwork.tv/ ~~~~~
~~~~~FUCKING WRESTLEMANIA SPOILERS AFTER HERE~~~~~
~~~~~ watch it live @ http://live.wrestlingnetwork.tv/ ~~~~~
~~~~~FUCKING WRESTLEMANIA SPOILERS AFTER HERE~~~~~
~~~~~ watch it live @ http://live.wrestlingnetwork.tv/ ~~~~~
~~~~~FUCKING WRESTLEMANIA SPOILERS AFTER HERE~~~~~
~~~~~ watch it live @ http://live.wrestlingnetwork.tv/ ~~~~~
~~~~~FUCKING WRESTLEMANIA SPOILERS AFTER HERE~~~~~
~~~~~ watch it live @ http://live.wrestlingnetwork.tv/ ~~~~~
~~~~~FUCKING WRESTLEMANIA SPOILERS AFTER HERE~~~~~
~~~~~ watch it live @ http://live.wrestlingnetwork.tv/ ~~~~~
~~~~~FUCKING WRESTLEMANIA SPOILERS AFTER HERE~~~~~
~~~~~ watch it live @ http://live.wrestlingnetwork.tv/ ~~~~~
~~~~~FUCKING WRESTLEMANIA SPOILERS AFTER HERE~~~~~
~~~~~ watch it live @ http://live.wrestlingnetwork.tv/ ~~~~~
~~~~~FUCKING WRESTLEMANIA SPOILERS AFTER HERE~~~~~
~~~~~ watch it live @ http://live.wrestlingnetwork.tv/ ~~~~~

if y'all fuck with this thread after that then fuck y'all

i guess i just never watch non 4 horsewomen diva shit to know that stuff.

also dudleyz in 2016 is like wtf you really havent bought up enzo & cass yet? retire already ffs

The Wild Samoans --> The Islanders --> The Headshrinkers --> Three Minute Warning --> The Usos --> Team B.A.D.

I like that you can basically tell the story of the history of the WWE since 1980 through Anoa'i-affiliated tag teams.

Bubba Ray is talking some pretty good trash in this tbf to the guy

"champions behave like champions before they become champions"

they don't even give Roman Reigns a chance to be a badass man, it's so stupid, this guy could so easily come over like a badass

yeahhh ladder match clusterfuck to kick things off again, here we gooooo. Dolph Ziggler looks like such a goon, what the fuck is going on with that guy

do they always introduce the German announce team as well as the Spanish now? or does that mean we're getting multiple announce table spots tonight?

pretty decent pop for Sami Zayn, Owens gets the biggest by a distance

oh it's a WM thing, they're introducing French, Italian, Russian, Portuguese and Japanese announce teams now. Funaki! this is dope

fuuuuck Sin Cara is trying to kill himself and everyone else.

Sami Zayn is over here, this seems like a pretty smarky crowd. poor, poor Roman Reigns

Zack Ryder wins the IC title to a massive pop, we are through the looking glass folks. and his dad's there to celebrate with him! and he's crying! this is surprisingly great, good for Ryder! pleased they're doing something with him

Zack Ryder wtf hahaha hahaha I don't believe it

WWE has to be trolling us here.

i kinda <3 it i think! i mean in general i'm not in favour of swerve title changes onto guys that haven't been on tv for 3 years, but he was so happy!!

bullshit :/

same match they've had 5 times already and Jericho wins clean :|

yeahhhhh this is what i was waiting for though. they are the best I hope they stay forever

Their timing seemed off for a lot of that match, but it was good to see even the second match on the card get some time.

But yeah, Jericho wins clean at Mania in their 848th match, why??

feuding with Roman once he's got the title? literally the only thing i can think of

lol Del Rio very much trying to do his own shit, doesn't want to be part of the team it seems

Last year at this time Rusev was undefeated and making one of the all time great WM entrances on the top of a tank, and now he's holding hands with Alberto del Rio coming out for a meaningless tag match.

yeah Rusev is totally wasted here. telling Xavier Woods to stand up and take his beating like a man and pulling running sentons, he's really good. Was ridiculous when they ran through all of Del Rio's achievements just then, he's literally done everything a guy can do in the company and he's less over than most of the midcard. the whole League is such damaged goods in their current gimmicks

is Barrett really too physically broken to wrestle? he's so fuckin good on the mic

ohhhhhhhh it's HBK yeaaaaaaahhh this is what we're here for, whaaaaat they're saying he's gonna wrestle, OMG it's Foley who's next?!?!!!! AUSTIN?!!!!!

YEAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH is this really gonna happen they mustn't tease us with this

wtf

Boring match, but the post match has gotten my attention.

i'm pretty drunk so i'm basically all in on nostalgia right now but seriously, do they have to dick over their roster in favour of the old guys every fucking time? the New Day should be their own thing, they shouldn't be getting clowned at WM

also fuck Michael Cole for insinuating that HBK was gonna wrestle properly, fucking dick, can't do that shit to my heart

Let's get this straight -- the Tag Team champs lose in a semi-fair fight, and then three retired guys show up and beat up both teams.

OTOH, Michaels looked great, was more over than anyone on the show so far, and can probably still outwork anyone on the roster.

right Lesnar Ambrose, I think this might go full death match, or as near as WWE ever lets things get to that. they need to let Ambrose bring the CZW garbage shit to try and level the playing field. bring it!

Rumour had it that Rock would be appearing in that segment, so does this mean he'll be involved in Reigns vs HHH??

Ambrose vs Lesnar already? Shit better get real.

Good god, did Lesnar eat one of the Lucha Dragons backstage, he looks enormous.

love you Paul E.

my assessment of wrestlemania so far - huh

really? oh man that was a huge letdown

fans dropped out during the second match and haven't come back. two really bad booking decisions and then just a flat out bad match from Brock and Dean. needs the women to come in and save the day now i think

oh wait did they put a belt on Zack Ryder so that the Snickers commercial would make more sense? WHAT IS GOING ON

That was basically an extended squash for Lesnar. What was the point of this feud? Lesnar destroyed him on TV every week and they didn't deliver any of the promised carnage.

yeah Lesnar is very boring now, much as it pains me to say it. he could do the funnest squashes in the world if he varied his offence but the german suplex thing needs to stop. it was amazing as a one-time thing to destroy Cena and it's great in multi-man matches where you can work a story round it, but they really need to start giving him matches with more of a story. it's stupid because he can be the best in the world, that Punk match in 2013 or the Cena 2012 one were fucking sick

It's always nice to see Finkel keep his Mania streak alive (even though they never show him on camera anymore).

Sasha Banks accompanied to the ring by Snoop in an Eddie Guerrero-inspired outfit, be still my beating heart! funny how they haven't commented on anyone else's special attire tonight tho

sasha doing the eddie headscissors makes the night worthwhile (maybe i'll have changed my mind about this in two hours)

michael cole can't tell the difference between women

match of the night so far at a stroll. Sasha Banks should be promoted as hard as anyone on the roster

amazing match but i guess they've decided not to do any good endings tonight?

lol they are determined to kill the spirit of this crowd before they get to the main-event, huh? aside from the Ryder swerve every single match so far has ended on a down note

can't have the outcome of the women's title match be decided by a woman now can we

that should've had another 10 mins

so the battle royal then..... Cena wins right?

That match was surprisingly heatless except for the highspots on the outside.

oh god they're closing the show with Roman Reigns lolololololololol this is such appalling booking. guaranteed a screwy finish in this Cell match too. we're nearing Wrestlemania 9 levels of every match having a dumb as shit finish.

they're basically doing the opposite here of what they've done for the last few Manias where they over-delivered on the card through smart booking.

should finish with the battle royal imo

CM Punk can rest easy -- Shane McMahon didn't get to headline Mania vs Undertaker either.

excellent camera work on taker's entrance tbf

now that the match is on i actually think i wouldn't miss Taker hugely if he loses here tbh

Classic deer in the headlights stare from Shane, I hope taker can hold this match together and not let Shane kill himself.

yeah would be pretty bad if he broke his neck coming off the cell or whatever with his kids right there. what's he gonna do to make this work? surely not more dancing? Mean Street Posse or gtfo really

complete non-reaction to shane kicking out of the last ride

hahaha Shane O'Mac just kicked out of a Last Ride to 0 reaction in 2016! Remember when that used to put away main-eventers? finisher kickouts for everyone!

xpost lol

Shane kicks out of the last ride omg.

The crowd must be saving their energy for booing Roman Reigns later.

"he was trained by the Gracies.."

jesus why are they trying to convince us that Shane can beat Taker in a shoot fight that is NOT what they should be doing with this match

chokeslam on the steps from Taker would KILL most of the current active roster

Dean Ambrose gets treated like a joke vs Lesnar, but Shane McMahon gets to trade MMA moves with the Undertaker. What in the blue hell is wrong with this company?

do you think they're planning on acknowledging the cell at any point

hey look someone can do a worse sharpshooter than Rocky! lol this is farcical

"this is awesome"

"and indeed it is"

this is one of the worst big matches i can remember. this is like Bret / Vince levels of wtf ito layout

yeah this is an absolute nightmare. it's left me eagerly anticipating seeing kane throw tyler breeze out of the battle royal three seconds in

k right he's gonna do it you fuckin crazy twat

oh god when he was standing up there gulping it was like watching a snuff movie

well he seems to be alive so that's a single +ve for this match

lol, all of that intrigue about blackmail and company control and family feuding, and it really was just to get one stunt bump on the show. that should've been about 15 minutes shorter, at least.

The table was gimmicked well to absorb the impact, it was really nothing like Foley's bump. Still, I was fearing for Shane's life there.

Great facial expressions from Undertaker in the last few minutes of the match too.

That's all I got though.

i haven't started watching and won't check back here bc spoilers i just wanna say fuck the network why is it so hard to start from the beginning when the show's still going on? i put the thingy to the beginning and it takes me back like 10 minutes. this is so very annoying. i guess i gotta wait until it's over.

This "Shane died to save us all" post match commentary is way waaayyy too fucking much.

sooooooooo Zack Ryder getting biggest pop of the night, who saw that coming?

Baron Corbin sighting! man they'd better leave that muthafucka in NXT, he's just starting to put it together.

SHAQ!!!!!!

lol

The WWE might have wanted to advertise this.

Damien Sandow still more over than 95% of the roster

hoping baron corbin elimates shaq. GET BACK TA NBA.

wait wait wait WAAAAAIT that;s fuckin TATANKA

what the fuck why didn't he get an entrance you FUCKS this is a goddamn wrestling show isn';t it?!!" fucking savages man

Now they can induct Shaq into the celebrity wing of the HOF next year, nice work everybody.

glad they brought ddp back to put over konnor

Corbin legend killing now! god i hope he wins this