cp3 v. d-will

Anyone not voting Chris Paul is insane.

I love Deron Williams btw, but seriously this is not close.

yeah

some broadcaster the othere day was saying that Williams has a much better outside shot.

He's also bigger and probably a better one-on-one defender. Big whoop.

yeah,a lot of the stuff CP does on the floor is some straight up witchcraft.

lol tru

chris doesn't slack on his master minding duties ever. but he gets owned head to head. but that's mostly bringing up old shit. cp3

deron is a better shooter and more versatile defender cp3 owns everything else

it is interesting how much better deron has been head to head tho

voting d-will just to be that guy. i also think that the 'this is not close' argument is retarded

your move, williams

deron

hahaha poor jason terry

"i also think that the 'this is not close' argument is retarded"

But it's not close. Every single metric shows Paul as being not only significantly better than Williams, but historically great. This isn't some Bird vs. Magic argument where the guys are really close, this is like arguing that Artis Gilmore was better than Kareem.

did artis gilmore win 80% of his head to head matchups against kareem?

D'ya mean "win" as in having better stats or "win" as in his team won the game?

"did artis gilmore win 80% of his head to head matchups against kareem?"

He didn't. You are aware basketball is a team game though? And that Williams and Paul play 78+ games a year against those other teams?

'every single metric' - as mentioned above ^ williams is a better shooter and more versatile defender. avg's close to the same numbers in assists and is plenty capable of scoring as much as cp3 when needed. the jazz are usually better when he doesn't have to score a ton and he can drive and dish instead.

Every single metric shows Paul as being not only significantly better than Williams, but historically great.

Apart from a clear advantage for Paul in rebounds and steals, their basic stats are pretty similar imo.

both - referring to both head to head matchups and team wins. sure, there is 78 other games but a head-to-head matchup is a pretty reasonable way to match 2 skill levels up, esp when they're playing the same position and guarding each other

Also, pretty good chance these guys will face off in the playoffs this year, which should be a lot of fun to watch.

The whole "it's a team game" angle would make more sense if Utah was clearly better than New Orleans, but they're not. They have almost the exact same record.

On the other hand, when they've faced off against each other, both seem to perform pretty well.

voting d-will just to be that guy. i also think that the 'this is not close' argument is retarded

― 6335, Thursday, March 12, 2009 10:34 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

unless yr willing to argue that deron is perennial mpv candidate good then yeah this is not close

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=2779
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=2798

for their careers the only statistical category deron holds an advantage in is 3p%

I don't think anyone is saying that Deron is actually better than Paul.

what those stats are saying is paul is definitively better than deron

CHRIS PAUL IS WAY MORE CUTER

The whole "it's a team game" angle would make more sense if Utah was clearly better than New Orleans, but they're not. They have almost the exact same record.

― Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Friday, March 13, 2009 4:00 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this is a ridiculous assertion on so many levels but most obv because the jazz are so much more talented than the hornets if u disregard the two players in question here - its the huge disparity in value between paul and deron that causes the hornets to be as good as the jazz - tho both teams hav had a ridiculous amount of injuries this year and the jazz are prob better when healthy

what i'm saying is that if we picked teams in the schoolyard, i would pick deron and you would pick paul and we would beat you 80% of the time ^_^

unless yr willing to argue that deron is perennial mpv candidate good then yeah this is not close

― ice cr?m, Friday, March 13, 2009 8:05 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

LOL media voters

i would just love to see paul destroy deron in a 7 game series then everyone can stfu cause u know their head to heads so far SMALL SAMPLE SIZE

unless yr willing to argue that deron is perennial mpv candidate good then yeah this is not close

― ice cr?m, Friday, March 13, 2009 8:05 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

LOL media voters

― 6335, Friday, March 13, 2009 4:27 PM (42 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this isnt abt the media who completely underrate paul this is abt can u w/a straight face say deron williams should be discussed in the same breath as lebron wade howard et al

the media underrates paul? LOL

tbh i don't think paul is in the same category as lebron wade kobe etc either. right outside it, yeah

i do hope for a NO/UTA matchup in the playoffs and hopefully a rodman-malone style throwdown in a metal cage afterwards

I disagree that it is ridiculous on "so many levels," but possibly on the single level of being wrong.

heh

i hav some other levels id like to tell u abt

the media underrates paul? LOL

― 6335, Friday, March 13, 2009 4:31 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

he had a better season than kobe last year didnt get the mvp - no ones talking abt him for it this year - they like him but dont seem to appreciate exactly what theyre seeing which is someone playing his position as well as its ever been played - of course u think deron is better so the media prob looks like fawning fools from yr pov

I don't think 6335 thinks Deron is better.

thsi ice cr?m has a point there.kobe bryant raped people and he received mvp last year. even the media likes him now.did they forget about the rape?

im sayin

"Apart from a clear advantage for Paul in rebounds and steals, their basic stats are pretty similar imo."

Pretty similar except Paul is better at everything that ya know actually matters. A better shooting %, better foul shooting %, better rebounding %, more rebounds, more assists (albeit just slightly here), less turnovers, more steals, etc.

PER, Win Shares and WARP basically show Paul being one of the most valuable players in the league and Williams while still being great being outside of that class. Seriously the idea that these guys are separated by a narrow thread is a joke.

"no ones talking abt him for it this year"

To be fair that's because 1) his team is underachieving compared to last year and 2) Lebron is having an insane year and Wade isn't far behind him.

Do you guys agree that they're both probably hall of famers, barring major injury?

Wade is cute also is he not gay? That is why he is behind?

its true deron is dumpy and gay so of course he is overrated

"Do you guys agree that they're both probably hall of famers, barring major injury?"

It's pretty hard to project that (let alone barr major injury.) I think that Paul may have a tough time doing this until his 30s. Small point guards tend to get beat up and slow down pretty early. Williams won't have that problem so it's just a matter of whether or not he can maintain an All Star level for 10+ years, because barring freak improvements he's not going to get many All NBA First Team votes.

paul is a great player but playing the position as well as magic? stockton? isiah? not yet he isn't
xp

and yeah i'm not arguing that deron is better, merely that this is closer than some of you want to admit

yah paul is playing better than all those save maybe magic

Yeah for the record I think the comparisons to Magic are nuts. Magic played MVP level basketball from the moment he got into the NBA to the point where he prematurely retired. I don't doubt that if not for jerks like Karl Malone if he had kept playing straight through he probably had at least two maybe as many as four more years at that level. If Paul does this for half that period of time, he'll be lucky. That said Paul has already put together two better seasons than Stockton or Isiah ever did. He's already on their level.

gimme a break, paul is nowhere near stockton

Do you live in Salt Lake City or something?

let me know if paul ever averages over 12 assists a season, like stockton did for 8 consecutive seasons

i'd have thought you would have figured that out w/ as much as i babble about the jazz on here. but yeah ;)

the crazy thing abt stockton is that he was so good for so long - but yeah paul absolutely has played better than for the last two years

Point out the years where Stockton was playing on the level of Paul's last two.

Stockton averaged more assists in more minutes when the league was for the most part playing at a fast pace btw. Their assist % is very comparable. And Paul is again better at everything else.

Except for steals sorry I forgot Stockton was a steals machine somehow.

87-88
14.7 pts
13.8 assts
2.95 stls
.574 fg%
.358 3pt%

89-90
17.2 pts
14.5 assts
2.65 stls
.514 fg%
.416 3pt%

90-91
17.2 pts
14.2 assts
2.85 stls
.507 fg%
.345 3pt%

the utah jazz did not play at a fast pace until just recently - sloan just barely started letting them run a couple years ago

and fg% and 3pt%

stockton's best season ever is... 17 and 14, 3 stls, 1 rbd a game and 41% from three

paul's best season ever is 21 and 11, 3 stls, 5 rbds a game, 37% from three but he's shooting about 4-5 more times per game

and stockton had malone — if both are in their primes right now then they're about on the same plane at least, and the hornets are way worse

and this is gonna sound like a bill simmons argument — and correct me if im wrong cuz i was 2 years old in 1990— but paul has the capability to take over a game and playoff series— he was by miles the best player on the floor in the mavs series last year and dirk will probably be in the hall of fame. did stockton ever just beast a game so no one else was going to win? did he ever do this in a series? did he ever have to on the teams he was on?

he def did take over on occasion but he didnt hav the hulk ability paul does - more of a pure playmaker secondary scorer - just not as dynamic

"the utah jazz did not play at a fast pace until just recently"

Maybe the Jazz played slow in 80s/90s (I don't think this is true, but maybe it is--their pace in 87-88 was 6th in the league) but it doesn't matter cuz almost EVERYONE ELSE WAS RUNNING. You must see the advantage to rate stats like assists by having more offensive opportunities.

yeah i mean stockton lead the league w/ 13 assists per game and paul leads the league w about 11 assists a game - at that point what is 2 assists really?

They did slow down considerably btw as soon as Sloan took over down to 21st and 20th in 89-90 and 90-91 respectively.

heres hollinger on paul http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090311 wish hed examine some non per stats - tho imo per is a pretty good aggregate of what u see in the box score - obv not much for D but what stat is

http://i38.tinypic.com/21x6jd.jpg

i wonder what karl malone thinks about this?

paul needs a malone - guy can pick and roll like crazy

we all need a malone

Even with that Utah's pace in those seasons was 96.1 and 95.3 vs. 89.9 and 87.9 for the Hornets the last two years.

we all need a jeff malone

"yeah i mean stockton lead the league w/ 13 assists per game and paul leads the league w about 11 assists a game - at that point what is 2 assists really?"

If your whole argument is look the guy got a couple of more assists then yeah your argument sucks.

here's some stats nerdery from 1988 from some dude who is not bill simmons
http://www.rawbw.com/~deano/hoopla/pgdr1.html

John Stockton (Utah Jazz): A year ago, Stockton wasn't on anyone's top ten list of point guards. Now, there is no doubt he deserves a spot with the best.

Stockton takes over for Magic (temporarily) as the Point Guard of the Future. No 6'9" point guards have come out of college in the last eight years, so we have to look at a player of a more traditional stature to be the next premier point guard. Stockton's style is different than Magic's because of the height difference, but he is as good a passer as Magic. He might actually be better because he has to find openings where Magic can go over people. Stockton was fourth in the league in field goal percentage, so he hits the open jump shots with the best. He's no asset as a rebounder, but his defense is top notch. Try to watch Stockton's hands for a while and count the number of times they're going to fast for your eyes to follow. Bet it's pretty high.

Stockton's individual floor % of .654 last year is the highest I have ever seen. In '86-87, Magic had a floor % of .628, which is the second best I've found, but is quite a distant second. Stockton broke the old record for assists in a season, set by Isiah Thomas in '84-85, but Thomas' floor % of .593 wasn't nearly as high as Stockton's. It's amazing that Utah's team floor % was only .531 and its adjusted points per game was only 107.1, both lower than league averages. This is true because none of his teammates are particularly efficient scorers, either because they turned the ball over or shot poorly. Mark Eaton's .402 floor % was a big offensive problem. Karl Malone's league leading 325 turnovers weren't helpful either. Can you imagine this guy with the Blazers? Can you say 'dynamite'?

thats not my whole argument and since when is 14.5 = 13?

and at what point is 2 extra defensive rebounds a game that big of a deal? 5 boards a game vs stockton's 3

In one game, not much. In 82 games, that's an extra 164 per season, an extra 1500 in a career, etc.

Two extra rebounds, four extra points, 1 less turnover, in fewer opportunities, yeah you are right, no big deal.

can someone go ahead adjust those stats for pace plz

individual floor % of .654

Unfamiliar with this terminology

it's kind of a semantic point anyway but 3 extra assists and 3 extra rbds aren't analogous for the pg position

Guessing it's something like True Shooting %.

Floor %= Scoring possessions/Possession

dude explains all his stats in the article

yeah and those extra 3 assists a game translate into = 240 assists/at least 480 pts

how do those 2 extra rebounds translate into a turnover and/or 4 pts?? they could just as easily translate into a rebound for david west instead or a missed fast break opportunity

err roughly 240ishhh

all of this talk of one extra whatever is meaningless if we dont adjust for pace

should be noted in our comparison of stocktons best seasons to pauls that stockton has a lot more to choose from - paul is just out of the gate on fire FIRE

"how do those 2 extra rebounds translate into a turnover and/or 4 pts?? they could just as easily translate into a rebound for david west instead or a missed fast break opportunity"

Uh Paul average 4+ points and 1- turnover a game plus two more rebounds over Stockton's best seasons.

"all of this talk of one extra whatever is meaningless if we dont adjust for pace"

This is true. Damn you Basketball-Reference.

oh sorry alex, i misunderstood what you were saying

but while we're quibbling, it's actually .5 difference in to's between paul's season this year and stockton's best. if you're using the same season that paul is avging 5 rbs at least. which still gives stockton a better asst/to ratio, way more assists, more steals, better fg%, better 3 pt% blah blah blah. pace sschmace

Doubt if the block quote function will work, but this is probably the best pace adjusted stats we are going to find.

Paul Stockton
Season 2007-08 1987-88
Age 22 25
Tm NOH UTA
Lg NBA NBA
G 80 82
MP 3006 2842
PER 28.3 23.2
TS% 0.576 0.645
eFG% 0.524 0.589
ORB% 2.4 2.1
DRB% 10.3 6.6
TRB% 6.2 4.5
AST% 52.2 54.8
STL% 3.9 4
BLK% 0.1 0.3
TOV% 12.1 21.9
USG% 25.7 17.2
ORtg 125 125
DRtg 103 102
OWS 12.8 9.3
DWS 4.5 5
WS 17.3 14.4

I like how the Paul vs. Williams has now taken a back burner to the larger question of how great is Chris Paul? Just great? Or the 2nd best PG ever great?

if he can keep this pace up for 7-8 more years then i'll gladly give him top 3 status

actually top 3 is way too generous - top 5-6

I'm curious who would be ahead of him in your eyes. I guess I should made the caveat that I was talking about the post-Magic/Bird-era. I don't doubt that Robertson, Cousy, et all, were amazing, but it's kind of hard to analyse their games in the context of today's game.

btw, this dude has paul and williams at 5 & 6 in this years mvp race. guess i'm not the only crazy one

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/rob_peterson/03/13/wade_climbs.mvp.20090313/index.html

yeah i never saw oscar robertson play but its still tough to argue against a dude who avged a triple double for a season, in any era. magic/bird era -->
1. magic
2. stockton
3. isiah
4. kidd
5. nash

Some stray thoughts on that triple/double season:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=1423

Your list is crazy btw.

if we're eliminating cousy/oscar, i'd give paul #4 spot if he keeps it up for 7-8 more. even though i think he's going to start wearing down in more like 5-6

interesting article, thx. alright, what would yer list be

My list is mostly the same (I mean who am I going to pick? Rod Strickland?) I just can't imagine taking any of 2-6 over ten years of Chris Paul playing at his current level (this year, last year plus 7-8 more.)

Actually I guess Payton might have an argument against Kidd or maybe Nash.

Payton didn't distribute as much as I'd like, but he was amazing on defense.

stockton already had 10 seasons about that good and then another 6-7 that weren't too shabby. when stockton was FORTY years old, he avged 13 pts, 8 asts, 2 stls, .517 fg%. yeeeesh.

but good point, i' slide him by isiah if he can keep it up. big if, tho

i should point out that when i said 5-6 originally, i meant including cousy/big O. not that crazy

Nash also kind of gets dicked cuz he didn't really get regular playing time until he was 26 (nearly 27.)

nash like stockton and magic found himself in exactly the perfect system - the same cannot be said for paul - hope he does tho

Nash found himself in the perfect system twice though which indicates that it had as much to do with him as it did with the system/players around him.

I agree that Paul's supporting cast is significantly worse than everyone else on these lists though.

nash in dallas was only a v good point in phoenix he was all time level brilliant - so im talking abt phoenix just to clarify

Hah Dallas was a near perfect system then. He was still probably the best point good in the league when he was there (unless you prefer Kidd, I guess.)

look at the splits between dallas and phoenix http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=592 its like he turned from deron into paul

Hah Dallas was a near perfect system then. He was still probably the best point good in the league when he was there (unless you prefer Kidd, I guess.)

Or if you like your PG to play defense.

And be a horrendous outside shooter.

jeez i'm with 6335 on most of this, paul has a couple good years and a phantom ilh mvp award (we'll dub it the 'unkobe' lol) and he's better than stockton??? lolstats

Woah I didn't say he was actually better than Stockton (or Isiah or Kidd or Nash). This argument is entirely predicted on Paul repeating his successes for another decade (and ya know actually experiencing some post-season success as well) which is far from a given.

Had no idea that Malone average 4 turnovers a game one year. That's almost embarrassing.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

scientific evidence

deron - 21 pts, 11 assts, 3 stls, 0 turnovers
paul - 19 pts, 12 assts, 1 stl, 4 turnovers

jazz 108
hornets 94

The Hornets lost to the Warriors when they didn't have Monta Ellis, Jackson, Biedrins, or Maggette.

the jazz lost to the t-wolves @ home when they didn't have al jefferson

I didn't realise that Deron has his initials tattoed on him?

Could be he's a big Desperate Housewives fan.