POX: Top Ten QBs in the league since 1980 on

Remember when Kurt Warner look like the greatest thing to ever do anything? Yeah.

I'm also not that sure I'd place Brady that high, or that McNabb deserves the placement. Also I'd probably switch Marino and Montana, super bowls be damned.

I think Warren Moon is quite underrated, partially because of the way his career ended with his image getting tarnished. Moon was still a pretty good QB at age 41! I think his career numbers would be really off the mark if he would have become a starter at age 24 or 25 instead of 28, which is when he entered the NFL.

Was Simms that much better than Dave Kreig or Boomer Esiason other than the fact he won a Superbowl? I don't know, I think he is closer to those two than you might think.

Randall also deserves a spot on the Top Ten Punters list (coming soon).

See also Troy Aikman. Hell I think Flutie was more talented than Simms was, Simms was just a decent decision maker on a team that was based almost entirely on the run (let's ignore the pink elephant that is the Giants' D sitting over there).

Granted, Simms does hold that completetion % in one game record but he wasn't fantastic.

Phil Simms = the Jack Morris of football. (That completion % game - his 10-inning World Series Game 7 - was in the 1986 Super Bowl, wasn't it?)

TOTAL 2576(ATT) 4647(COMP) 55.4% 33,462 199(TD) 157(INT)

Anyway I'm not saying he was bad or even not good, it's just that...he's no #10.

i carry no torch for phil simms, but decision-making is where it's at. there's a great deal to be said for not throwing enormous soul-crushing interceptions, of which favre, for instance, has thrown far too many in recent years.

Dude, his image didn't just up and tarnish itself.

But he was brilliant in Houston, and that's mostly how I'll remember him, slinging it to Jeffires, Givins, Duncan and Slaughter.

I always dug Lo White, too...

TS: Phil Simms, announcer vs. Boomer Esiason, announcer

Bigtime Underrated QBs: Jim Kelly, Troy Aikman

Bernie Kosar was a real good QB for a couple of years. I seem to remember that he may hold the completion percentage record for a single season. While on Miami QBs, as much as he has been maligned, you still have to give some props to Vinny Testeverde for having such a long career with many of those years being quite productive. Neither of these guys would be in a top ten overall list of the last 20 years, but they would rank highly in some individual years.

Another guy not listed who has had some very good years is Steve McNair. I think that guy is the hardest QB to take down. I have seen that guy get away some good passes with just being smothered by a lineman or linebacker.

You could also say the same for Bledsoe in NE and Trent Green in St.Louis.

POX Top Ten QB Pro Busts either first round draft busts or college studs that didn't have the game for the BIGTIME--

Jack "The Throwin' Samoan" Thompson

Dan "I guess I should have talked to my brother's trainer" McGwire

Todd "I won one more national title than Dan Marino did at Pitt" Blackledge

Akali "Ouch" Smith

Tom "I was better than Troy Aikman in college" Ramsey

David "The Run and Shoot offense" Klinger (Replace with Andre Ware and get the same results. That U of Houston coach at the time whose name escapes me was a real winner and class act.)

Geno "I won a national title and a Heisman and Jim Kelly did not" Torretta

Cade "I was not as good in the pros as Troy Aikman" McNown

Tim "Sitting on the..." Couch

I respect him much more now that he's calling SEC games on CBS.

Honorable mention for Rick Mirer?

he had some great years with Oakland and Minnesota and Atlanta.

If you were a head coach and Jeff George is announced to be the teams new QB, you better get together your resume. The guy had the physical tools to be one of the best ever, but man he was a mess. The trainwreck started in college, he went to Miami, Purdue and Illinois. How many college players end up going to three schools? It doesn't happen very often.

DOWNGRADE

-- rogermexico (tenthreaso...), November 4th, 2005.

When Manning's lost as many Big Games as Kells, then it'll be a toss-up.

-- David R. (quoteidio...), November 4th, 2005.

Well I guess he gotta get there first.

-- Allyzay must fight Zolton herself. (allyza...), November 4th, 2005.

In economics they call this inflation. We should be figuring Simms' stats in constant 2005 yards (like constant 2004 dollars). By the same token, we should be adding Warren Moon's Canadian yards, adjusted for the exchange rate of the day.

I agree that Simms is not the 10th best QB of all time. But he is at least the 10th best on the list above. Tittle, Van Brocklin (although I have only seen film of them) and Unitas were all obviously better. Probably Otto Graham too.

The constant yards and exchange rate commeents were jokes.

Regarding the HOF, Simms would have walked in had he not broken his leg in 1990. He was leading the league in passer rating and had thrown 4 interceptions in 14 games (12-2) at the time. With that second Super Bowl under his belt the HOF would have been a lock.

Regarding Hoss vs. Simms, there was no comparison. Anyone who says Hoss was better did not watch the Giants in 1991-92. They were like a whole different team when Simms came off the bench. I have a lot of respect for Hoss. He read defenses as well or better than any QB this side of Rich Gannon. For a QB who did not play in a west coast offense he was incredibly stingy with the ball. Going into his unfortunate final season he was tied with Montana for best all-time interception percentage (not sure where that last season left him; he had a five interception game with the Redskins). And finally, Hoss and Unitas were the only QBs I ever saw play whom I would characterize as tougher than Phil Simms. However, he simply did not run an offense and make plays in the air at the level Simms did. In fact, I would say the contrast between them really drove home the fact that Simms was an elite QB, not just a very, very good one (like Hoss).

Bill Parcells said to Frank Litsky of the New York Times (December 2, 1990). "Some quarterbacks can just drive Cadillacs. But I think Simms can
drive a Ford, too. When the surrounding cast is sufficient, a lot of
quarterbacks can drive the car. But there are only a few who can do it
whether the supporting cast is sufficient or not. And I think he can do
that. When he's gone, people will say about the Giants' quarterback,
He's good, but he's no Phil Simms.'"

Look at the list above and ask yourself how well each of those guys drive a Ford (hint, Elway moves way up). And remember, when it came to receivers, Simms drove a Yugo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Schlichter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Marinovich

Although Heath Shuler played almost as badly as Schlichter and worse than Marinovich, he did manage to stay out of jail. Tommy Maddox would also have been a candidate had he not panned out a decade later.

I still think Ryan Leaf is in a league of his own when it comes to QB busts, there was a bunch of talking heads pushing him as the #1 pick over Manning including the hardwood hair of Mel Kiper and jungle smackguy Jim Rome. Anytime Rome opens his piehole on NFL QBs they should bring down the Leaf on his head.

Colts--

Elway wouldn't play for them.
They drafted Art Schlister.
They traded an Allpro OT Chris Hinton, later probowl wideout/house burning down Andre Rison for Jeff George. (I will never, ever understand why a team would trade its best reciever and lineman to get a QB.)
If the Colts would have taken Ryan Leaf, I think they would now be playing in LA.

i don't see how maddox would compare to yr shuler's and akili smith's nevermind ryan leaf who's a whole nother level (insane hype, alot of "smart" people sure he's the smarter pick at #1, i remember him and manning doing press everywhere together cuz it was understood both these guys are gonna be superstars, bobby beathard trading up crazily to get him. egads - biggest draft bust ever no doubt.), dude was a late late first rounder who alot of people thought was a reach that high.

Leaf was terrible. But I saw him have one good game, which is more than I can say for Schlichter. What bugged me about Shuler was that he was bad at the things he was supposed to be good at. For instance, I once watched Robert Harris catch him at a flat run from behind. Shuler was supposed to be fast. And while Harris was pretty atheletic for DT, he had no business running down a 24 year old "running" QB.

Kiper was VERY high on Leaf. I didn't see it. Or at least, I didn't understand why everyone discounted his primitive mechanics. Manning had pretty much perfect mechanics. By contrast, I hardly remember Leaf taking an orthodox drop at WSU. Every It seemed like every snap he backpedaled and unloaded. Consequently, he never learned to use his feet correctly. To be fair the same could have been (and was) said about Steve McNair, who played almost exclusively from the shotgun in college. But McNair's intelligence, work ethic and unbelievable physical skills were obvious.

No one else would make my top ten right now (although if Roethlisberger continues like this he'll before long.) Next group were all good QBs but had serious serious flaws and would probably order like so: Kelly (how is he in the Hall anyway? Didn't Frank Lloyd Reich get them to most of those Super Bowls?), Esiason, Simms, Cunningham, Moon.

Only the last one, where Reich played the entire playoffs (and part of the end of season IIRC. And, uh, the Super Bowl after the 1st qtr but let's not talk about that game). Kelly's injury-proneness is a great NFL myth.

Reich as QB is mythical because of HOUSTON.

Actually Bill Polian was pretty vocal about taking Manning even before the big workout and after Leaf had such a good combine workout is when guys like Kiper really started really yelping.

Polian got similar grief a year later when he took Edge much higher than projected and traded Faulk to the Rams.

McNair is one of the best athletes to ever play QB. Eventually all of those shots and getting a pass off with a lineman hanging on his back broke him down, but he was really tough a few years ago. Roethlisberger is bigger, but he is a bit like McNair in being able to get a good pass off with a defender hanging on him.

That Bills and Oilers playoff game was something else, I remember watching that one.

I think more so than other pro sports, greatness in football has a whole lot of luck involved with getting drafted or picked up by a good team. It is even more so for other position players like the offensive line, where guys like Larry Allen and Jonathan Ogden get named to the Probowl year after year and they haven't really been an elite player for a few seasons. For example, Tarik Glenn got to his first Probowl last year and is going again this year, but I can tell you from watching him play, he isn't as good as he was a few years ago.

Steve Young's career might be more like Jake Plummer if he would have had to spend more years in Tampa Bay instead of getting to ride caddy with the Niners and take over a perennial powerhouse.

You are also right that the pro bowl is mostly about media exposure. Often a player goes to the prow bowl simply because his team won the super bowl, like Brad Benson in 86. The exception that springs to mind is Bruce Mathews, who deserved every one of his 14 appearances. Lomas Brown and Jackie Slater probably deserved more than they got. And Brian Mitchell was the best combined return man I ever say. He had over 21,000 total yards on the ground, plus 168 passing. Those weren't all option passes either; he quarterbacked Washington to a win off the bench his rookie season. He went to one pro bowl in 13 years.

But luck is everything in the NFL. Even if you end up on a good squad, things may not go your way. Especially when it comes to injury. For every Barry Sanders there is a Gayle Sayers and a hundred Robert Edwards. McNair had it all. On paper he was the perfect Quarterback. And he had a good offensive squad and even better defense. But he was saddled with Les Steckel, the worst Offensive Coordinator in the NFL, for the meat of his career. Then he got old and battered. His window of opportunity was slim.

i Marino
ii Peyton
iii Steve Young
iv Montana
v Moon
vi Ken Anderson
vii Favre
viii Fouts
ix Brady
x McNabb

i think it might be against the law to rank young hinger than montana

i have some controversial opinions4u

i should probably bump mcnabb off the list but i don't know for who. i kinda just pulled this all outta my ass btw~~

yeah make that Aikman at 10, forgot about my mans in d-town~

oh dang i forgot elway too... guess he can take brady's spot~

yeah, ken anderson at 6? i dunno, boss.

Speaking as a Charger fan, I don't see Fouts as a top ten quarterback. I don't think you have to lead your team to Super Bowls to be a good quarterback, but the team was just brutal from 73-77, and 83-87. The team's success from 78-82 was nice, but ultimately fruitless (one AFC championship game, in which the Chargers were no match for the Bengals). I think Fouts was a deserving Hall-of-Famer, but not one of the best QBs by any stretch of the imagination. It's easy to pile up yards when you're coming from behind every game (see Warren Moon).

Kenny Anderson and Issac Curtis were both really good players from the Bengals of the mid 70s to mid 80s. Neither of their stats are eye popping compared to the stuff from the last twenty years, but they were
very good. I seem to remember that Dr. Z is a fan of Ken Anderson.

The biggest problem that Anderson has is that when the Bengals were good 73 to 77, it corresponds with the same time as division rivals the Steel Curtain were winning Super Bowls. The Bengals could never really get over the Steelers. The AFC was freaking loaded in that time, as the Dolphins and Raiders were both really tough.

Warren Moon's stats are a bit mind boggling as Houston ran that spread 'em out run and shoot for a big portion of his career. When June Jones was the coordinator and later head coach, they rarely ran the ball.

Other than when Fred Dean who seemed to get a lot of sacks, I seem to remember that the Chargers defense when Fouts was QB was kind of like the Dolphins for a big part of Marino's career i.e. they gave up a gazillion points. Fouts could really throw the deep pass.

Another guy that was pretty good, but totally under the radar is Neil Lomax. He wasn't a top ten QB, but he was pretty good and would have been thought of a bit different if he played someplace else. Of course playing in the black hole that is the Cardinals will do that for you.

OJ Anderson was also a good back who is probably more thought about for that big come back year with the Giants than when he was great in St. Louis. There is a funny part in the America's Game in the Giants victory about Otis Anderson being under the radar, as a younger player can't believe this old bench warmer was OJ Anderson who was good on the Cardinals.

"The biggest problem that Anderson has is that when the Bengals were good 73 to 77"

Bill Walsh was also the offensive coordinator in Cinci for a few of those seasons.

Consider these four players:

A: 57.2% passing, 44611 yards, 6.6 ypc, 251 TD, 206 INT
B: 58.8% passing, 43040 yards, 7.7 ypc, 254 TD, 242 INT
C: 58.5% passing, 38147 yards, 7.2 ypc, 261 TD, 199 INT
D: 60.1% passing, 35467 yards, 7.4 ypc, 237 TD, 175 INT

Who do you think is the better quarterback? Is it definitive? One of them is Dan Fouts. The other three are Dave Krieg, Drew Bledsoe, and Jim Kelly.

c & d are virtually similar in td to int ratio, and i do like the magical 60% completion percentage.

anyone that thinks favre is better than manning is absolutely fucking insane

B is Fouts. D is Jim Kelly.

lol honestly i have no idea about a lot of these dudes since i never even saw them play. but i get the feeling kenny could've easily had montana's career, and maybe better, if walsh took him along when he went to the niners.

actually i forgot abt this and meant to start a thread on it last month, but this makes a great case for my mans ken:

http://www.armchairgm.com/index.php?title=The_100_Greatest_Quarterbacks_of_the_Modern_Era

and while i mostly have unlimited contempt for football outsiders, this was an interesting case 4 him:

http://footballoutsiders.com/index.php?p=4042

all-time passer rating leaders

1. Steve Young+ 96.8 1985-1999 2TM
2. Peyton Manning (32) 95.4 1998-2009 clt
3. Tony Romo (28) 95.0 2004-2009 dal
4. Tom Brady (31) 93.4 2000-2009 nwe
Philip Rivers (27) 93.4 2004-2009 sdg
6. Kurt Warner (37) 92.9 1998-2009 3TM
7. Joe Montana+ 92.3 1979-1994 2TM
8. Ben Roethlisberger (26) 90.9 2004-2009 pit
9. Drew Brees (29) 90.5 2001-2009 2TM
10. Chad Pennington (32) 90.1 2000-2009 2TM
11. Matt Schaub (27) 89.8 2004-2009 2TM
12. Carson Palmer (29) 88.9 2004-2009 cin
13. Daunte Culpepper (31) 88.5 1999-2009 4TM
14. Jeff Garcia 87.5 1999-2008 5TM
15. Otto Graham+ 86.6 1946-1955 cle
16. Dan Marino+ 86.4 1983-1999 mia
Donovan McNabb (32) 86.4 1999-2009 phi
18. Jay Cutler (25) 86.0 2006-2009 2TM
Brett Favre (39) 86.0 1991-2009 4TM

so how have nfl rules caused so many of these current dudes, many of them mediocre, to climb the rankings?

well DB coverage changed to adapt to rules, less contact, etc

steve young's stats always impress me more and more when i look at them, the dude was just sick

I worry McNair's going to wind up like Earl Campbell. (Total physical breakdown, constant pain, etc.)

― I do feel guilty for getting any perverse amusement out of it (Rock Hardy), Sunday, November 6, 2005 10:45 PM (3 years ago)

Yeah, McNair's not going to have a comfortable retirement.

― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Sunday, November 6, 2005 10:52 PM (3 years ago)

Yeah, I mean I'm not a Titans fan by any stretch, but I hate seeing him get banged up so much, especially when it wasn't that long ago when he was blowing everyone away.

― VegemiteGrrl (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, November 6, 2005 11:07 PM (3 years ago)

;_;

i Marino
ii Peyton
iii Steve Young
iv Montana
v Moon
vi Ken Anderson
vii Favre
viii Fouts
ix Brady
x McNabb

― cankles

OTM.

what would it take for peyton to hit #1?

steve young is probably my favorite player ever

Another season or two with Harrison in his 2004/05 form.

xp

what would it take for peyton to hit #1?

Dan Marino would have to expressly authorize it. In writing.

Ha!

dan marino suddenly remembers that he might lose his #1 alltime ranking

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa9LNPwZIGA

Relax, Dan. You have nothing to worry about.

marino was a magician, a tough motherfucker, and a little bitch. mysterious ways.

prob should not use passer rating for this exercise

steve young is probably my favorite player ever

― a goon boy (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, November 3, 2009 9:23 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

otm

maybe its just cuz of when i grew up but i'd take him over montana any day

also, the pfr blog posted this the other day

through eight games, the worst QB performances of the last fifty years by passer rating:

http://i34.tinypic.com/23lz4mf.jpg

a shitload of guys from the deadball era and then derek anderson

also an amazing/awesome thing that TMQ pointed out this week:

Stats of the Week No. 6: If every pass a quarterback attempts falls to the ground incomplete, his QB rating is 39.6. Derek Anderson's quarterback rating is 36.2.

lol @ randy johnson

also def thought that Dan Pastorini said Dom Passantino

yeah i wish i could watch the browns play offense for a few drives, this seems like something to cherish - i mean, when they watch film on the opposing defenses, does everyone in the offensive meeting go on with the charade of thinking that they are capable of being competent for a game and thus the opposing defense should be studied for weaknesses that derek anderson can exploit? idk, the whole thing just seems like an insanely pointless exercise, i feel like the browns need a year off to just regroup.

Stats of the Week No. 6: If every pass a quarterback attempts falls to the ground incomplete, his QB rating is 39.6. Derek Anderson's quarterback rating is 36.2.

this is just explaining why qb rating is dumb fyi