Tragic Football Stories - Let us Kick Around the misshapen Jabulani that is English football right here

Not the problem w/ English football. We'd fucking love some of Spain's patience and ability to back it up. England play that fast and dramatic because they are scared of losing the ball soon enough if they try and pass it to each other.

Hey, I'm taking none of the blame for that nonsense!

You've got a serious point wrt to actually watching the England team, namely that they're such a drama queen - and drama queens do make such great viewing. No idea why England (and France! And I guess Argentina!) should have become the football equivalent of high camp, but they are almost always undeniably compelling. I don't know if 'twas ever thus - I can't think of a proper example before 1986, though the seeds are there in 66 and 73 - but since 86 it has turned into a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, in that passion and hysterical overreaction have become the answer to everything. Not sure we'd like calm efficiency very much. It certainly wouldn't make for a memorable narrative.

xxp

Iniest and Xavi are DM's, but not in the English understanding of the position. They're deep-lying playmakers. Iniesta never convinced in the role because of his preference for attacking options in movement/passing. He also beats his man more often than any english player I could name, tbh.

Villa plays wide on the left- he's an real winger, as opposed to playing Milner on the right of midfield.

With Villa on the left, they don't need anyone on the right- Ramos gets into the opponent's box more often than Lampard/Gerrard/Lennon/Walcott.

Spain keep the ball and attack with runs from deep because that's how you break down teams that refuse to attack you- When England learn to do this rather than run en masse up front and wait for a long ball, taking away any options for the man on the ball in the process, they might make the 1/4 finals again.

xp to IK

Yeah, the sturm/drang of the premier league is carried over in the english player mentality, I think. If you're not achieving something immediately, it's suspiciously foreign.

Villa is not a winger wtf although I guess he'll turn into a wing-forward for Barca.

Darragh OTM on Villa and Ramos, they both got past their man time and time again. I'm not sure A Hoy Hoy was watching the same Spain as me last night.

Also Andreas Pirlo was the best player in the best team at the last World Cup and you didn't see him charging past his man very often.

Ramos spent the first half in his own half, was a lot better in the second.

Villa not a winger? The dude touches chalk for 50% of the game!

Ramos: Opposition teams tire, you want your right back disciplined to begin with tbf.

He's an out-and-out striker who drifts into wide positions, its what players can do in these modern teams that aren't wedded to 4-4-2.

Basically- Spain are set up to take into account the actual movement of players when the team has the ball, which is why you get three-four options when it comes to picking out a killer ball. Almost like a playbook is Yankball, maybe?

I do love Tom Humphries' writing. Here he writes about German youth/English youth footballing methods

^^^ E-fucking-xactly.

Capello digging his heels in. I can't see him being cowed by The Sun, so this might not end in complete disaster.

John Terry, while prob one of England's best performers, can kiss his international career goodbye if Capello stays, right?

That was a good article.

can't think of a proper example before 1986, though the seeds are there in 66 and 73

The dramatic narrative in '82 was provided by the inclusion of two 30something stars-that-we-couldn't-leave-out, who were both carrying injuries - Keegan and Brooking. Keegan's best years as an international had been wasted in non-qualification and now he'd returned to English club football. The whole thing seemed to be about Superstar SuperKev of the SuperSaints and his WC Dream.

Sans KK and TB, England coasted through the group, drew 0-0 with West Germany in the second group stage and needed to beat Spain by two goals to make the semis. On came the crocked veterans for the last 20min. Brooking crosses for Keegan to head wide from six yards. I think this was also the debut of Clough's non-truism "it only takes a second to score a goal". And Big Jack C's helpful "if they get one with enough time to get another one, they'll be alright." Which, taken together, essentially meant 0-0 at 89:58 was still a winnable position.

John Terry, while prob one of England's best performers

... exsqueeze me?

Wait, Brooking played in 1982? WTF?

I thought Terry was one of england's better players- obviously pretty awful in the German game, but certainly in the group stages was one of the only performers, alongside A Cole.

Struggling to think of who could count as one of England's best performers. Ashley Cole? Jermain Defoe? Someone who came on for a few minutes at the end of the game and didn't disgrace themselves? Michael Dawson? Theo Walcott?

Carrick will have been pleased with his own individual standing- Dawson also came out as a sure thing for the next campaign.

Thought Cashley was OK. And Calamity James. Terry arguably squeaked by against the mighty forward lines of Algeria and Slovienia but was mince, when you get right down to it

the problems were with teamwork so there's no point picking out good performers. for every missed pass there was a lack of movement to give any decent options. the really telling detail was when james took a goal kick or anyone took a throw in, they would always wait for a few moments looking out in despair at the field in front of them.

Terry 80% pass success rate, FWIW, according to article above.

anyone took a throw in, they would always wait for a few moments looking out in despair at the field in front of them

lol tottenham hotspur, as long as i've watched them. we lose possession from the majority of our own throw ins, i swear.

80% success trundling the ball sideways to Upson

What d'you want from John Terry in possession, I ask?

Whatever happened to Statto by the way?

Terry 80% pass success rate, FWIW, according to article above.

― ,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:34 (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

means nothing for centre halves btw

I know nothing about the development of soccer players though, because, simply put, you need to be from dublin or cork to get a game or a sniff of a game at FAI utd FC

dunno, one thing ive noticed in recent years is players on the irish team not from those cities for a change - stephen hunt (waterford), kevin doyle (wexford), shane long (tipperary)

Wait, Brooking played in 1982? WTF?

Oh yes. But never again afterwards (and incoming Eng manager Bobby Robson dropped Keegan from the squad for the first Euro 84 qualifier in Sept '82, so that lame 20min cameo at the Bernabeu was his last hurrah too).

Lousy structure to that tournament - second round of four three-team groups. Spain had nothing to play for vs England (though the other final R2 matches were more "live", in each case one side only needed a draw to progress).

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/06/30/article-1290711-0A432C17000005DC-888_634x531.jpg

Lennon is da pimp

Michael- yeah, but hunt has been in England since forever (since he was 15 I think) and I think both of the others came from Cork City?

Great article by Humphries

the really telling detail was when james took a goal kick or anyone took a throw in, they would always wait for a few moments looking out in despair at the field in front of them.

^realest of talk, if someone made a Zidane-style film of James v Germany it'd be like Bad Lieutenant or something, he looked that angry every time the camera picked him up

(may be wrong about doyle coming from cork, tbh, but waterford still the rich and pampered east of the country imo)

no youre right, doyle played for cork city

Nice piece on England's 1982 World Cup here http://www.morethanmindgames.com/2006/06/01/the-nearly-men-englands-1982-world-cup/

England's problems are deep, man.

Structurally, there's the whole Premier League set up, which makes clubs more powerful than country. There's the poor youth training - though apparently the kids at U18 level are very good. There's the lack of depth in the talent pool, where players like Upson, Milner, SWP and Barry become first teamers when they shouldn't even be on the plane. There's the subletting out of key positions to foreign players, so England cannot produce either a decent defensive midfielder (Barry was the direct cause of all England's faults v Germany and gave Upson/Terry zero protection) OR a decent creative midfielder (when did we last produce a decent playmaker - we had buckets of them 20 years ago when football was infinitely shitter).

Then there are the mistakes made by Capello. So many of them, it beggers belief. I really didn't expect him to lose it so badly and the whole contract thing is absolutely disgraceful.

I don't blame the players at all really: there are too many that simply aren't good enough (and that's not their fault) and the rest weren't trained properly and weren't man-managed properly. Given the endemic structural problems, the team was never better than the quarter-finals, but it's Capello fault they didn't even make it that far.

What to do? I say let him see if he can learn from his failure, manage expectations (England will be lucky to qualify for the next Euros) and use the big gap between the current crop of players and the next (who are all under-20) to implement some of the changes in coaching and prioritising that are required. Easy.

(Looking forward to reading the youth article above. I saw the Chelsea youth team this season against Blackburn and Villa, and there was a huge difference between Chelsea's ballplayers (including this amazing little English playmaker called McEachen) and Villa and (especially) Blackburn's cloggers, suggesting athleticism is still being rated too highly by youth coaches. But the Chelsea team itself was a massively better than the one I saw two years before, suggesting you can make the changes relatively quickly IF you have the resources.)

Okay, so I've read the opening paragraphs of the Irish Times piece and am shaking my head already. Sam Hutchinson is a very promising player but has the same knee problem as Ledley King, and he's only 20. The fact he has played for Chelsea at all is a minor miracle. Not the best example to pick...

there's the whole Premier League set up, which makes clubs more powerful than country

while I agree 100% with the rest of your post, Pete- This doesn't explain why the PL clubs don't produce young English talent to the level that big teams in other countries are doing for etc Barca in Spain, Bayern In Germany, Ajax (and others, tbf) in Holland.

Why are Everton able to produce 30m british youngsters, and nobody else sees the value in it?

including this amazing little English playmaker called McEachen)

McEachen, eh? Better make sure Ireland (or Scotland possibly) don't claim him first.

Surely scottish

not that that'll stop us (lol mcgeady)

Why are Everton able to produce 30m british youngsters

Because they are not bankrolled by sheikhs or Russian oligarchs?

But I don't know why they should have to be forced to do so out of necessity, when it seems to be the best long term blueprint

i hear good things about this man city youth product silva, btw

reckon a lot of english clubs like the idea of getting a player from elsewhere cheap, watch their value rise, then sell on. like flipping a house. can't do this with english players because they pretty much don't leave england.

Wayne Rooney didn't have to leave England to earn Everton 30m.

There are loads of reasons for this:

There simply aren't as many English 10 year olds playing football these days (pretty sure this is the case)
Poor PE training.
Lack of top quality coaches.
Those who do play, play too many games and on too big a pitch.
The big PL clubs can nick semi-developed talent from abroad and get praised for it
Too much money in the game - they can spend rather than nurture, even the smaller clubs piggyback on the success of the bigger ones.
They don't take it seriously enough (this is a brilliant read on Ajax - http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/magazine/06Soccer-t.html)
The even smaller clubs are put off nurturing talent by the fact the bigger clubs will just thieve their kids (Chelsea, Spurs, West Ham)

The rumours are that some of this is changing (foreign kids are less fashionable), but it's going to take a while to drip through into the Premier League and requires clubs putting their kids into the mixer and bugger the consequences.

I don't know much about the Everton story, but would be interested to learn more. I presume they are in part benefiting from Liverpool's near complete neglect of local talent (although haven't Pool done well in the Youth Cup).

Josh McEachren, born in Oxfordshire, hotbed of football talent (see also: Why football is turning middle class).

Even the Mancs rate him.

http://www.redcafe.net/f7/josh-mceachran-296926/