Tragic Football Stories - Let us Kick Around the misshapen Jabulani that is English football right here

Nice piece on England's 1982 World Cup here http://www.morethanmindgames.com/2006/06/01/the-nearly-men-englands-1982-world-cup/

England's problems are deep, man.

Structurally, there's the whole Premier League set up, which makes clubs more powerful than country. There's the poor youth training - though apparently the kids at U18 level are very good. There's the lack of depth in the talent pool, where players like Upson, Milner, SWP and Barry become first teamers when they shouldn't even be on the plane. There's the subletting out of key positions to foreign players, so England cannot produce either a decent defensive midfielder (Barry was the direct cause of all England's faults v Germany and gave Upson/Terry zero protection) OR a decent creative midfielder (when did we last produce a decent playmaker - we had buckets of them 20 years ago when football was infinitely shitter).

Then there are the mistakes made by Capello. So many of them, it beggers belief. I really didn't expect him to lose it so badly and the whole contract thing is absolutely disgraceful.

I don't blame the players at all really: there are too many that simply aren't good enough (and that's not their fault) and the rest weren't trained properly and weren't man-managed properly. Given the endemic structural problems, the team was never better than the quarter-finals, but it's Capello fault they didn't even make it that far.

What to do? I say let him see if he can learn from his failure, manage expectations (England will be lucky to qualify for the next Euros) and use the big gap between the current crop of players and the next (who are all under-20) to implement some of the changes in coaching and prioritising that are required. Easy.

(Looking forward to reading the youth article above. I saw the Chelsea youth team this season against Blackburn and Villa, and there was a huge difference between Chelsea's ballplayers (including this amazing little English playmaker called McEachen) and Villa and (especially) Blackburn's cloggers, suggesting athleticism is still being rated too highly by youth coaches. But the Chelsea team itself was a massively better than the one I saw two years before, suggesting you can make the changes relatively quickly IF you have the resources.)

Okay, so I've read the opening paragraphs of the Irish Times piece and am shaking my head already. Sam Hutchinson is a very promising player but has the same knee problem as Ledley King, and he's only 20. The fact he has played for Chelsea at all is a minor miracle. Not the best example to pick...

there's the whole Premier League set up, which makes clubs more powerful than country

while I agree 100% with the rest of your post, Pete- This doesn't explain why the PL clubs don't produce young English talent to the level that big teams in other countries are doing for etc Barca in Spain, Bayern In Germany, Ajax (and others, tbf) in Holland.

Why are Everton able to produce 30m british youngsters, and nobody else sees the value in it?

including this amazing little English playmaker called McEachen)

McEachen, eh? Better make sure Ireland (or Scotland possibly) don't claim him first.

Surely scottish

not that that'll stop us (lol mcgeady)

Why are Everton able to produce 30m british youngsters

Because they are not bankrolled by sheikhs or Russian oligarchs?

But I don't know why they should have to be forced to do so out of necessity, when it seems to be the best long term blueprint

i hear good things about this man city youth product silva, btw

reckon a lot of english clubs like the idea of getting a player from elsewhere cheap, watch their value rise, then sell on. like flipping a house. can't do this with english players because they pretty much don't leave england.

Wayne Rooney didn't have to leave England to earn Everton 30m.

There are loads of reasons for this:

There simply aren't as many English 10 year olds playing football these days (pretty sure this is the case)
Poor PE training.
Lack of top quality coaches.
Those who do play, play too many games and on too big a pitch.
The big PL clubs can nick semi-developed talent from abroad and get praised for it
Too much money in the game - they can spend rather than nurture, even the smaller clubs piggyback on the success of the bigger ones.
They don't take it seriously enough (this is a brilliant read on Ajax - http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/magazine/06Soccer-t.html)
The even smaller clubs are put off nurturing talent by the fact the bigger clubs will just thieve their kids (Chelsea, Spurs, West Ham)

The rumours are that some of this is changing (foreign kids are less fashionable), but it's going to take a while to drip through into the Premier League and requires clubs putting their kids into the mixer and bugger the consequences.

I don't know much about the Everton story, but would be interested to learn more. I presume they are in part benefiting from Liverpool's near complete neglect of local talent (although haven't Pool done well in the Youth Cup).

Josh McEachren, born in Oxfordshire, hotbed of football talent (see also: Why football is turning middle class).

Even the Mancs rate him.

http://www.redcafe.net/f7/josh-mceachran-296926/

was just digging up that ajax article, fantastic read.

Yeah, fascinating to see the comparisons made with American sports for a chance.

The even smaller clubs are put off nurturing talent by the fact the bigger clubs will just thieve their kids (Chelsea, Spurs, West Ham)

#1 problem imo, but have the new rules on compensation etc been in place long-enough to have borne fruit as yet?

Regarding why more clubs don't go down the Everton Rooney route

a) football clubs aren't financially literate
b) they can make almost as big a profit by finding and flogging a Valencia or Santa Cruz
c) these kids are hard to spot and take time to nurture and then may discover women or wine or get injured, and clubs don't like risk
d) why bother, when you can nick a 16-year-old from Barcelona and claim he is homegrown?
e) you may make £30m, but you look like Man U's bitch - how much is that worth? that's the Ajax angle.

There are signs this is changing. Arsenal were responsible for some of the bad youth policies of the past when they obsessed over foreigners, but Wenger now reckons English is good and everybody else will follow.

b) they can make almost as big a profit by finding and flogging a Valencia or Santa Cruz

Srsly though? Cost of developing one player (even allowing for attrition) can't be comparable. And

(c) it's not like buying in yr Santa Cruz's is a risk-free effort. Wages alone, etc etc. And whether or not they'll settle.

(d) Everton can't nick 16 year old's from Barca. That's an elite number of clubs that can do that to begin with.

(e) Even Man U are a selling club.

Return to a)

Josh McEachren, born in Oxfordshire

Where was his grandad born, that's what really counts

i mean what you're saying there is that we'd all make a better job of running the transfer affairs of 95% of english clubs.

can't be that simple.

Well, you have to factor in the stuff I was saying before about the quality of the English talent pool before it even gets to the clubs, that makes it harder to find the good stuff. It stems from there.

But English clubs definitely see bringing in foreigners (if not 16-y-o from Barca) as an easy option and one that can prove massively profitable if done well, and if you have scouted carefully you remove a lot of the attendant risks - plus you have a player who can improve the team from the get-go, not theoretically in five years time and then only momentarily before he moves to a bigger club.

That article is great, but it saddens me that being the world's greatest selling club is the best Ajax can aspire to. They've been screwed. They should be contenders every year.

Well bringing in better foreigners, yes- England doesn't monopolise raw talent.

But there's gotta be a huge amount of former eng u-21 players that could play first team for premier league teams. where are these guys going to?

Ajax article- am still working my way through, but yeah it's v interesting stuff. I've chilled at a BBQ with Denis Bergkamp's former Ajaz roommate, btw

Jennings said that his scouts, in response to the “unsuitability of the indigenous population of Britain” — children who are too sedentary and spend their time with video games — were increasingly focused “on the inner city of London, among Africans, Eastern Europeans and Caribbeans.”

teling quote, tbh

But that's part of the problem - there has been a big gap in the England talent pool for the last decade. There simply aren't that many good players coming through, and those that stay in the Premier League are manifestly not good enough to play for England (Sidwell, Bentley). It's a question of numbers, not that many are getting pro contracts (partly because of the squeeze from foreign players, but that's not all of it) and those that do, aren't particularly good because of lack of good coaching.

Where have all Liverpool's FA Youth Cup winning players gone? They just drift down the leagues.

I interviewed a youth development guy at charlton. he said of 40 players that come in and out of a group as it moves from u-11 to u-17, two will end up playing professional football and one will make a career out of it, most likely in the lower leagues. And that's at a club with a good record in youth development.

Sidwell & Bentley are good enough, imo, they're just feckless.

Is it more of a mental thing- is this a coaching thing?

Before Rafa overhauled LFC's Academy, the club employed around 100 part-time scouts, some around the age of 80. Since then, with 12 full time scouts in place, and 2 of the coaches that worked with the likes of Messi and Fabregas when they were kids, there's been some very promising youngsters coming through, and the U18 team contributed 2 players to the England U17 team that recently won the World Championships.

"Where have all Liverpool's FA Youth Cup winning players gone? They just drift down the leagues. "

Anyone can have a good cup run. Being able to sustain that over a league season is another matter, and that appears to have been the problem. I'm guessing they simply weren't good enough.

Seems like Scotland was actually ahead of England when it comes to gradual drying up of talent and inexorable decline into mediocrity

(great thread title btw)

Austria and Hungary once again showing the Brits how it's done

Funny you should say that, I always bring up Hungary when discussing Scotland's decline into shiteness

Spurs youth team of a few years back had a good couple of years in the league, iirc. Didn't get much out of it.

Everton's FA Youth Cup winning side of 1997-98:

Dean Delaney (Port Vale and then back to Ireland)
Carl Regan (Barnsley, Hull, Chester...)
Adam Eaton (Preston NE, Mansfield, retired at 25)
Edward O'Brien (no pro career AFAIK)
Adam Farley (1 first-team appearance in '99, then non-league)
Richard Dunne (5 years at EFC, Man City, Villa, Irish international)
David Poppleton (no pro career AFAIK)
Leon Osman (still a Toffee)
Danny Cadamarteri (bit of a ringer at that point, having already starred in first team, goal vs LFC, etc; lower leagues from 2002)
Phil Jevons (a star in the reserves but only 8 full appearances, into lower leagues from 2001)
Jamie Milligan (four sub apps, then Blackpool, then knee injury and non-league)
Tony Hibbert (still a Toffee)
Francis Jeffers (£8m to Arsenal, all LOLs thereafter)
David Knowles (no pro career AFAIK)
Kevin McLeod (five sub apps, QPR, Swansea, Wycombe...)

Sorry but 40 > 1 shit professional is someone being fucking terrible at their job.

Pennant, Bentley, Sidwell, Cole - all from the same group of Arsenal kids and taught the Arsenal youth coaches to focus as much on talent as making sure they don't end up complete dickholes.

I mean how the fuck are Brazilian academies able to produce a new team, of which there are 1 or 2 outstanding players potentially of the highest quality A YEAR and yet a well funded London club, not long ago residents in the best league in the world (tm) able to get 1 lower league player from 40?

Blaming it on video games is stupid and passing the buck.

Sorry but 40 > 1 shit professional

refers to what, out of interest?

I interviewed a youth development guy at charlton. he said of 40 players that come in and out of a group as it moves from u-11 to u-17, two will end up playing professional football and one will make a career out of it, most likely in the lower leagues. And that's at a club with a good record in youth development.

― Pete W, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 13:27 (6 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

"England have so many top stars in their squad that they will always be part and parcel of the international football scene," Müller said. "But there are so many 'alpha males' in their squad. It is difficult to have so many alpha males and have them row in the same direction. You don't only need chiefs. You also need a few Indians.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/jun/30/world-cup-england-thomas-muller/print

how much does a player earn for playing for England btw? I am fucking hating the 'oh he earns 130k a week and cannot do it for a different club that doesn't pay him that' but don't have the figures to spit in their face w/

Michael Owen on England: “Life has changed and kids cannot be getting the same practice as my generation. Yet look at the beaches in Brazil and the streets of Africa and you can see why so many players come from abroad.”

Is the problem maybe that our beaches aren't up to scratch?

David Cameroon to make England's streets as good as African streets, speech at 11am tomorrow.

You used to get a few hundred quid for playing for England, but I bet that's not the case now (these guys should be paying us, right?)

Interesting hotchpotch of an article, nakh - good points all round. I'm most impressed with Müller - can you imagine any England player being interested enough in another side to offer thoughts like that?

Germany? Oh yeah Schwein... that guy with a big name has a fit wag who is free to call me, yeah?

Thomas Muller's wife is lush.

this is kinda late but with 'all said and done' about this recently deceased team, i don't think there was much chance of them ever doing anything, whoever was managing them and whatever the tactics. the hilariously protracted gerrard+-lampard inanity is kinda central to this.

there's a core of athletic, intelligent and fairly skilful defenders; ferdinand, king (:x), a cole, g johnson (ish), previously campbell too. they're comparable in type to many of the top defenders elsewhere, though perhaps not as composed in possession. they're fairly good and could justify some of the popular hope invested in them.

and of course wayne rooney and previously owen, whose premature obsolesence apparently doesn't matter cuz rooney is better up front on his own. they're highly accomplished players.

all of which is dependent on having some kind of midfield. so.....lampard is rly intriguing here. basically i think he *is* a first rate player, tho i'm not sure how helpful it is to think of him as a cm, even if notionally he is.

post mourinho he usually plays towards the left in a 4-1-2-3, with a makelele/mikel covering him. there is malouda/robben (first rate lws) to stretch the flank and the incomparable drogba and essien, the former's hold-up play and latter's knack for recovering possesion high up the pitch allows for fairly simple and rapid attacks which drag apart the defence, with lampard arriving late to supply the final pass or more usually clear up the spoils. he's insanely good at this and is able to be a hugely successful 'cm' without having much of a short passing game, ie what it's all about.

then gerrard, superbly athletic, awesome striking technique and a good tackler, can be devastating as support striker with his instinctual sense for attacking space during rapid breaks - if that's in short supply he is limited by his suspect concentration and atrophied possession game. another first rate player but only in a very specific context where his indiscipline is compensated for or even encouraged. basically not a cm despite having qualified as such and possessing some of its skillset in abundance.

gerrard/lampard are franchise players, embodying a certain mythic english archetype (the box to box midfielder) but sensibly adapted for current trends by iberan negativists. they're each twinned with examples of another archetype of limited viability outside of local context, the catastrophically slow and clumsy yet inspirational/shouty defender.

the other english players are often franchise players from lesser lights in the pl, possessing one or two noteworthy qualities, usually from the numinous 'power, pace, passion' checklist of motd fame. to which is sometimes added 'ability' - to be able to pass, move and control with distinction. this drudgery is usually left to the guest workers.

Is there even anyone else who fulfills the gerrard/lampard box-to-box midfielder role in the premiership? Or anywhere else? I guess Kaka but it seems a dying breed.