Tragic Football Stories - Let us Kick Around the misshapen Jabulani that is English football right here

Maybe take some of the Britishes interest navel-gazing out of the proper World Cup thread I thought?

Lennon Huddlestone Wilshere Young Agbonlahor Walcott
c'mon fabio you know it makes sense

― ,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 09:41 (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Maybe I shall regret going here but I wonder what it is about those guys that mightn't appeal to England's core fan demographic as much as Lamps and Stevie and Rooney and Barry

― Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 09:42 (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

can't understand who chairmen/managers think they're pleasing when they buy a player in to sit on the bench and play 5 times a season.

In Scottish football, historically this has been a method used by the Celtic and Rangers to make sure they have the player and no-one else does

― I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 09:43 (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ooooh NV

cmon seriously?

― ,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 09:46 (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

As long as they're winning they'll be fine

― I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 09:47 (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I dunno. No, not seriously, but let us consider the "type" of an England "hero". Let's think of Stuart Pearce's bulging neck veins as he shouts for Carling in that ad or whatever. I mean "Englishness" is a definite thing for a lot of the England hardcore. And I definitely think the FA is more bothered about the Brand than the football, tbh.

― Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 09:48 (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

There's a shitload to unpack in what are widely considered the virtues of the English game compared to the virtues that other big football nations espouse. I really really don't want to kick start a clusterfuck but it was a fleeting thought when I looked at that front 6 of darragh's up there.

― Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 09:50 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

saw the england-usa game in a south london pub where the guy behind me was a passionate england fan who shouted abuse at the team from the start, culminating in calling robert green a "fucking paki". so i could imagine this becoming a thing.

― joe, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 09:52 (21 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Thought this could be a general argument about the England team rather than a race clusterfuck but am leaving the steps that led here in the interests of full disclosure.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/worldcup2010/3033609/Is-David-Beckham-the-man-to-replace-Fabio-Capello.html

oh, great.

Somebody told me that one at work yesterday. Got plenty of love for Becks but I rolled about laughing at the idea. He's too much of a politician to want the job I'd've thought.

yeah this was needed tbh

I suppose the model there is Klinsmann and Germany

if only for the poetry

Becks has no coaching badges, no managerial experience and has never courted the job. So on the surface he would seem a high-risk successor.

But

Classic But

becks is no klinsmann

Sheringham won't take it, seems to have no interest in coaching.

scholes hates the publicity

You're gonna be stuck with Gary Neville imo

what England needs is a player-manager.

but that man must be Maradona.

Seriously Beckham might be more use to English football right now if he got involved with FA politics à la Brooking.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2010/8766476.stm

g taylor talks sense here imo

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2010/8688093.stm

this article a chastening example: According to European football's governing body Uefa, Spain had almost 15,000 Uefa A and Pro Licence coaches in 2008 - more than double the number of any other European nation. And that is despite it taking 750 study hours to acquire a Pro Licence in Spain, compared with just 245 in England.

Should go the whole hog and have John Terry as player-manager if England have no hope of anything ever for the next 10 years.

xp saying that, the english u20s are looking pretty good actually

guess they always do though

Capello will get massive abuse in the media and inevitably eventually the sack, and will likely largely get off the hook here. I reckon the media closer to the truth than we are - the guy created an unhappy camp, took a poor and unadventurous squad, and in any case you're not telling me that that team couldn't've been put out to perform better than that. But I'd still keep him because:

- the guy's track record is still outstanding, even with this massive blot on it
- you don't get a track record like that without learning from your mistakes - no way are England going to turn up at another tournament looking like that
- surely this debacle is at least partly the result of him acting against his instincts - let him have free reign, and if it means a lot of bruised egos well so be it, massaged egos haven't brought results either
- he's getting paid whatever - giving possibly the outstanding club manager of the last twenty years £10m not to work for you is indefensible right now
- realistically, what's the alternative?

- realistically, what's the alternative?

A Scottish manager

england u-20s have always looked good, yeah.

the last england u-15 side i caught ina full match was pretty amazing, AFAIR a certain A johnson was only one of maybe three Middlesborough players in the midfield.

Capello gets free rein from me for creating an unhappy camp, if the alternative is to create a happy camps of spoiled brats.

Bringing the 23 players he did, after picking what i thought was a very bright and encouraging 30 to begin with, yeah that's a black mark.

Selecting the 11-15 players he did from those 23 consistently regardless of performance- ey Fabio this ain't the league mate.

rationally speaking capello should probably stay but the taint of failure is often insurmountable past a point

harry redknapp is the only alternative worth considering - he would do it but the tax fiddling's most likely knocked it on the head

i think whether the fa are prepared to pay £12m to scapegoat capello is going to be a good litmus test of their appetite for real reform, which is why i expect him to get the sack. if they wanted him to stay they could have said so immediately - after two weeks of speculation, he'll be glad to get out i imagine.

I'd keep Capello + get rid of Lamps + Gerrard.

How is letting Capello have his way not going to create another unhappy camp, unless different players are involved? And as you say, Capello picked the squad. So either this was a knowing ploy to get rid of a lot of the old guard after failure, or he's not the judge of a player we might've thought he was, or there's a near-insurmountable pressure to pick guys who aren't good enough/fit enough/mentally right that will still be there whoever Capello is replaced with.

he's getting paid whatever - giving possibly the outstanding club manager of the last twenty years £10m not to work for you is indefensible right now

realest talk, but watch and learn

joe totally otm. Capello sacked, new boss, business as usual. Especially if the new boss is Arry as he would be the perfect expression of the FA as Business Ueber Alles.

redknapp should be able to settle with the revenue. pay them £40,000, call it a misunderstanding. it'll all be dug up again the moment england go through a bad patch but i could see a desperate fa turning a blind eye now.

"ey Fabio this ain't the league mate" pretty much sums up dude's failings, yeah

Arry is also a great exponent of 442. Sticking with Capello would be the 451 thing to do, IMO

^yes I went there

Redknapp would be a disastrous international manager, he thrives on being able to bring in players to solve problems and if those players are just not out there in the 'market' I'm not sure he'd be able to fix things. Also the FA were pretty nervous about Venables' dodgy dealings and I'm not sure they'd take that risk with Redknapp. Also I don't want him to leave Spurs.

Hodgson at least has some experience as an international manager. He'll do.

Far as I can see, only 3 English managers having any degree of success at the moment: 'Arry, Hodgson (off to the 'Pool) and, errrr, Steve McClaren. Go for the younger man I say.

classic material from alan shearer's column in the sun today. it begins: "NO ONE likes kicking a man when he is down..."

oh yeah? http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/85000/images/_86318_alan_shearer_and_neil_lennon_after_kicking_incident300%2830-04-98%29allsport.jpg

Remember when Kings used to lead their armies back in ye olde times? Get Prince William in there and make that sponger earn his salary from The FA.

DAER SPURB FANZ wud u take swop caleppo and renkdapp

i can't remember where i read the slow cooking/fast food domestic league vs internationals analogy but i'd trust arry & sandra to whip a quick buffet sooner than fabio or woy tbh

Redknapp, and I don't want it to happen for two main reasons, would be the ideal manager for this group, and I think that he's done well out of players he already had at Spurs as well as buying them in Matt.

Also, that would be ignoring that he could 'bring in' any number of players like Walcott, Huddlestone, Dawson, Rodwell, Wilshere, Zamora, whoever.

Bentley and Bent could suck it tho

Did Arry really say that about swapping a bentley for a honda on BBC after the Japan game btw?

Honda have quality cars, get into a Civic.

he did

it was a groaner but the shaggy-dog delivery was kinda impressive for a pundit imo

Remember when Kings used to lead their armies back in ye olde times? Get Prince William in there and make that sponger earn his salary from The FA.

― They'll be dancing in the streets of Košice tonight (King Boy Pato), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:17 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Astride a horse = unwanted redux of Crouchch-on-as-sub high ball tactics

er, Crouch

DAER SPURB FANZ wud u take swop caleppo and renkdapp

― so you want Mark Ronson to cry into your ass (acoleuthic), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:17 (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yes; Calippo would not

Astride a horse

http://www.fortunecity.com/bally/avoca/277/kingbilly.jpg

would definitely have capello as the successor to arry. he'd cane bentley up and down bill nick way imo

World Cup 2010: Blatter sorry for disallowed goal

sorry usually means you'll try not to let it happen again.

An idea that just occurred to me - absolute squad limits. Clubs pick their 23 men on day one and are stuck with them. You *can* buy youngsters to sit in the stands, but everyone would have to be honest about it. Any kids in the 23 would be guaranteed playing time. The other kids, if they had any useful mentality whatsoever, would go elsewhere. Also a handy way of (i) shifting talent down the pyramid a bit, and (ii) keeping budgets down a little.

Of course it'd have to apply to the premier league to achieve anything, and there's almost no incentive for the premier league to agree to it. Which seems to be the problem with English football in a nutshell.

xp Try telling that to Bernie Taupin...

i thought son would be offered but- possibly like mitoma, of whom ive not seen enough tbh- his control of the ball isnt actually very good unless its in the very specific subcategory of dribbling that bisects defensive positions at pace

and if i have to tap the capote/ben arfa sign i will

martinelli beats a man and i like him but idk have i seen him dribble beyond fellas more than ive seen him wait out their tackle/move and beat them with reaction

i have, it will be noted, a rather specific criteria i use personally for what counts as "dribbling"

All decent points but you said “successful” dribblers and all are “successful” at beating defenders through dribbling and will do so in every game. I don’t think there is any great aesthete

I accidentally posted mid sentence. I don’t think there is any world class Garrinchas in the league at the moment, but quite a few are still very young (Marti/Saka are 21, Mudryk is 21, Mitoma is 26 but seems like he is just blooming, Antony is 23 and Garnacho is 19 etc) and as they grow, we could get out of this lull of dribbling expertise

pls god

Isak has this in his, erm, locker but has been non-existent whenever I have seen Newcastle this season

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6gWAYu_RG0

no steve guppy all the same

He was at Celtic for two years, he was no Paddy McCourt.

not by the time he was at celtic, no

but mccourt is a good example of actual dribbling, beat you at walking pace kind of thing

Antony definitely has a bit of the Ryan Giggs about him :/

so does Paddy McCourt

Unfortunately yes.

Looks like Mainoo is about to be appointed England's saviour as well as Man Utd's

No pressure lad

the problem is your Englands just can't produce home-grown managers of the right quality

Can't really see this working, also appointing an absolute firebrand seems a strange path to take after Noble Sir Gareth.

it's going to boil somebody's piss which is all i ask for of an England appointment tbf

Looking forward to England fans belting out their charming anti-German ditties during Tuchel's tenure.

He'll sing the national anthem, right? Right?

This works out well, Utd can now give Ten Hag the time he needs to put his stamp on the team without the shadow of Tuchel hanging over him, and if by some strange quirk he's not able to do that, he can leave with his head held high next season and and Southgate can come in, everybody's happy

It's perfect. You would expect Southgate to do well also, tho the Championship is a notoriously challenging league for inexperienced managers.

He'll sing the national anthem, right? Right?

God Save the Saxe-Coburgs?

absolutely will not work and feels more than ever like the FA dont understand what england inc needs which is a sarnt major who has seen battle and not a clipboard in an oversized baseball cap

the blind panic at losing to greece is hilarious. the fa is just not a serious organisation. the value of having a great management in mens international football is mostly bollocks with the exception of rehhagel imo. unless you get someone stupendously bad like roberto martinez i guess.

oh and i guess the next int. break is november so preparing for countless bullshit questions over whether tuchel will wear a poppy or not.

xp otm Greece are the form team rn, playing (v well) for pride too against a poor but clearly experimenting Eng

 a sarnt major who has seen battle

Don't disagree really but who would this be rn?

feels like only a week ago or so the vibe was how brilliant carsley would be and what a seamless transition it was, now he loses one game and he must be cast out forever.

i do think someone like howe might be better than tuchel, or even potter, idk. just think tuchel is a narky sort and it won't go well as a result, it's hardly a job free of politics.

(xp) Dyche obv.

Carsley was probably as good a shout as anybody (too deep in the chumminess of England to really do what's required but as oscar says international football management is not a serious job) but Carsley's main failing in the FA's eyes would be he doesn't increase value for the brand

carsley's interviews were absolutely abysmal but doesn't mean he's a bad manager i guess.

at the end of the day he just looks too much like Ross Kemp

he wasnt little england enough as an englishman, better to go full foreign than have that consultant almost rugby sincerity of actual perspective around stupid questions like the anthem/poppy etc

"i couldnt give a fuck about englands war dead to be honest with you peter" would be a sensational moment of national growth tho imo

I want "What about Germany's war dead? One word, Dresden" from Tuchel or gtf.

Is Carsley just going to go back to the under-21s now, like a flustered mouse at the end of a children's book?

lol

I've got a Richard Scarry image of Carsley stuck in my head forever now

reporter on the radio discussing Tuchel this morning - "he's a very bright guy, he's got a business degree"

have we got a "commentary cliches" thread and is it time for "pockets of space" to go and have a lie down for a bit?

Do you ever listen to Football Cliches? Not sure if anyone on ILX does but I find it pretty consistently funny.

Not much of a podcast listener. I love the Bryan's Gunn videos, which are more my attention span

Ah the two are very closely related, think one has helped the other along, but understand if podcasts not your thing.

It's explored a lot of language in detail and in a funny way.

My favourite thing they've found is that Paul Merson thinks "come what may" is in fact "come what May" referring to the month.

And has, more than once, said "come what February" or "come what March".

Co-sign Football Cliches. Great stuff and the gentle way they take the piss out of Merson is class.

i do love when somebody completely misunderstands a common phrase and publicly demonstrates that altho to be fair Merson has more excuse than many

"Come what 5 o'clock".

come what saturday

There is a fair percentage of Cliches where I'm more just nodding along or even just like fine not paying too much attention, but it makes me laugh out loud more than any other pod.

Also has that "these are good people feeling" that is quite rare with pods, like the trio just have a good, natural vibe which is also rare in sport content.

Is there an Irish version of this thread?

it is under state documents acts for 25 years

You know it's bad when players whose name sounds like a pension provider start scoring.

Keane's future son in law no less