And we're off. Guess who's getting in there early.
― Matt DC, Monday, 23 May 2011 12:42 (thirteen years ago)
Pretty sure the above story is nonsense incidentally, but if it isn't, and Barca and Chelsea have both passed him over, he's clearly either mentally fragile, a cunt, just not that good, or all three.
― Matt DC, Monday, 23 May 2011 12:45 (thirteen years ago)
nowt wrong with a good mentally fragile cunt overlooked by a big club in my book. i mean, we'd probably still be in the championship if arsenal had signed taarabt all those years ago...
― r|t|c, Monday, 23 May 2011 13:14 (thirteen years ago)
qpr's summer is gonna be like this apparently.
or no wait, maybe like this.
and we're gonna sign these dudes.
or maybe these, i dunno.
― r|t|c, Monday, 23 May 2011 13:24 (thirteen years ago)
if you ask me though i'm expecting danny graham, kyle naughton, madjid bougherra and maybe jimmy bullard for starters.
― r|t|c, Monday, 23 May 2011 13:27 (thirteen years ago)
I'm expecting a whole summer of the papers trying to sell Beram Kayal and Emilio Izaguirre to any team that wants them (and several that don't, from Man Utd to Norwich), and for Celtic to sign three Mexicans that no-one outside of Mexico has ever heard of to keep Efrain Juarez company at the cinema now that all his pals have left. The "Artur Boruc back to Celtic" rumours to pick up a bit of momentum before coming to nothing, one out-of-favour EPL player to take over Freddie Ljungberg's place in the clothing catalogue (early money's on Richard Dunne, I believe), at least one Irish international player to be linked (Dunne fulfils this one again - this is the Robbie Keane Effect), and some 16 year old wunderkind from the lower reaches of Scottish football that rocks up, is paraded as the future, and will never be heard of again (this is the Paul Slane Effect).
Oh, and a whole summer's worth of papers will be linking us to James McCarthy until he signs for Norwich (who will, of course, have swooped in and snatched him from under our noses despite us not having actually made a move for him).
― ailsa, Monday, 23 May 2011 14:55 (thirteen years ago)
Some high-quality comedy players available this summer as well - I honestly have no idea who outside of Qatar or maybe Blackburn would want Michael Owen and Kieron Dyer at this point.
― Matt DC, Monday, 23 May 2011 15:02 (thirteen years ago)
I think Kayal and Izzy will be offered improved deals very quickly to either put people off or drive the price up. If one of them has to be asset managed I'd rather it was Izzy but I think there's enough dead wood in the squad to get rid of first that we'll end up keeping most of our first XI including those two.
Wouldn't be overly upset to lose Cha Du Ri, Andreas Hinkel, Jos Hooiveld, Morten Rasmussen, Darren O'Dea, Niall McGinn, Darren Murphy and probably a few others. Need 1 x striker, 1 x centre half and 1 or 2 x goalkeeper.
Keep hearing Shane Long being mentioned as a Celtic target but I think there are a few English teams sniffing around so probably not gonna happen.
― the goon is in the gutter (onimo), Monday, 23 May 2011 15:04 (thirteen years ago)
Think a mid table team with aspirations (no I'm not describing LFC) could do worse than go for Papiss Demba Cisse. Second top scorer to Mario Gomez in Bundesliga in an unfashionable Freiburg side. Been impressed whenever I've seen him, strong, good in the air, surprisingly nimble and mobile and leads the line well. In fact I might be selling him a bit short with the mid table thing, he may well be better than that.
― pandemic, Monday, 23 May 2011 15:07 (thirteen years ago)
jesus gomez got 28 in 32
was linked to madrid even when he was crap so wouldn't be surprised to see a bid
― nakhchivan, Monday, 23 May 2011 15:09 (thirteen years ago)
Cha Du Ri, Andreas Hinkel, Jos Hooiveld, Morten Rasmussen, Darren O'Dea, Niall McGinn, Darren Murphy and probably a few others
Wouldn't even notice if they went, tbh (completely forgot Andy Hinkel existed until he sneaked into some of my cup final photos. I keep remembering about him then forgetting again straight after, he's the footballing equivalent of the Silents in Doctor Who the other week). Could lose Juarez an' all I reckon. I had completely forgotten we still owned Ben Hutchinson, so I reckon it's surely time for him to go.
1 x centre half already incoming (Kelvin Wilson), and apparently 1 x right back (Adam Matthews, so that'll be a taxi for at least one of Messrs Hinkel and Du Ri, if we assume Mark Wilson's done enough to remain first choice).
― ailsa, Monday, 23 May 2011 15:20 (thirteen years ago)
how has Ki been for Celtic?
― mizzell, Monday, 23 May 2011 15:21 (thirteen years ago)
Jury's still out, I think. I'm becoming more convinced as time goes by, but I wouldn't put him in my first-choice midfield just yet. This isn't a slight on him, it's more that I don't see him as particularly suited to the Scottish game, he sometimes lets the pace of the game pass him by.
Of course, he's looked really good the last few games, and was probably our best player in the cup final, so I basically know nothing.
― ailsa, Monday, 23 May 2011 15:36 (thirteen years ago)
With everyone fit and on form and available for Celtic, Ki would just miss out on the first XI. I think he's starting to acclimatise to the Scottish game (i.e. he's started kicking cunts and getting booked) and if anyone came in for one of Scott Brown, Joe Ledley or Biram Kayal I'd be quite happy for Ki to take their place in the first team. I wish he'd shoot a bit more - it's clear he has a hell of a shot on him but doesn't seem to have a go often enough.
― the goon is in the gutter (onimo), Monday, 23 May 2011 15:51 (thirteen years ago)
― pandemic, Monday, May 23, 2011 11:07 AM (46 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
amazing that senegal have him and Moussa Sow, leading scorer in France, and they only have 9 caps between them
― mizzell, Monday, 23 May 2011 15:56 (thirteen years ago)
Oh hooray, didn't take long for the 'Michael Owen to Celtic' rumours to start. Robbie Keane return and the unveiling of Darren Huckerby to follow.
― ailsa, Monday, 23 May 2011 19:00 (thirteen years ago)
Owen and Celtic could be an excellent fit, actually.
― Ismael Klata, Monday, 23 May 2011 19:07 (thirteen years ago)
Re: Cissé and Sow, tbf one's played mostly 2nd-div. football in France and Germany, the other had a Ligue 1 scoring record of 12 in 72 until this season. I hope they become a serious force by 2014 though, that '02 Senegal team was awesome and it's unfortunate how far they've fallen.
― boxall, Monday, 23 May 2011 20:46 (thirteen years ago)
Demba Ba is Sengalese as well. West Ham could realistically fetch up to $10m based on his short EPL resume 7 goals in 12.
― wabi sabi, Monday, 23 May 2011 21:22 (thirteen years ago)
Roman PavlyuchenkoAn exercise to keep us busy over the next 78 days or so: explaining how Tottenham could countenance offloading Pavlyuchenko (ten goals from 18 starts) whilst retaining both Jermain Defoe (four goals in 16 starts) and Peter Crouch (four in 20) without mentioning nationality. Good luck.
i know football365 are just lazy reading most of the time, but this is pretty otm
― ♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Monday, 23 May 2011 23:17 (thirteen years ago)
is bothroyd a free transfer?
spurs should move immediately imo. crouch out. stronger 'big man' option already. then move on to signing a finisher.
― ♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Monday, 23 May 2011 23:24 (thirteen years ago)
bear in mind Bothroyd only performs once every three months oh wait
― taking ilxers out with a flurry of butthurt (Noodle Vague), Monday, 23 May 2011 23:30 (thirteen years ago)
improvement.
he's a much better target man than crouch, it's a position that could really transform us if filled half-right. lennon and bale must be sick to the back teeth of the current bunch of cross-shy lackspittles, and having crouch ahead of modric is such a waste of the latter's quick though/movement.
― ♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Monday, 23 May 2011 23:35 (thirteen years ago)
Just about to start a thread for the summer poll. A couple questions first though:
Greatest players or favourite players? Or do i just ignore the adjective?Thinking no nominations thread, just a voting thread where we can also talk about players we have enjoyed, is that cool?22 players to vote for and 2 managers? Or more? I see it as voting for a game of players, also keeps it to those you really care about voting for. Or would everyone prefer 100 votes of players they enjoyed in the 90s?
― WHO THE FUCK READS THE (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 00:05 (thirteen years ago)
favourite, tbh, less baggagethat is cool
― ♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 00:07 (thirteen years ago)
bothroyd can be alright sometimes but yeah you wouldnt rely on him or anything. bit of a knobhead too - he's the jermaine beckford of big lads basically. (although i suppose spurs fans would hysterically claim beckford was better than defoe now).
― r|t|c, Tuesday, 24 May 2011 00:19 (thirteen years ago)
naah
― ♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 00:21 (thirteen years ago)
tho beckford/defoe would be a decent everton strikeforce, no?
― ♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 00:22 (thirteen years ago)
Atletico Madrid forward Sergio Aguero has asked the Spanish club to release him from his contract.
The 22-year-old Argentine international extended his deal to 2014 in January but his buy-out clause was reduced from £52m to £40m.
"After five intense years a stage in my personal development has ended and I have to move on to a new one," said Aguero on his website.
Chelsea, Liverpool, Manchester City and Tottenham have been linked to Aguero.
"I said long ago that when I wanted to go, I would say so publicly," added the Atletico striker. "And the time has come.
"So I keep to my word and here I am. I find it hard to leave Atletico. It hurts and saddens me."
Aguero has scored over 100 goals for Atletico since joining from Independiente as a teenager in 2006.
― WHO THE FUCK READS THE (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 05:43 (thirteen years ago)
Spurs are being linked with Kevin Gameiro this morning. Given that Harry said yesterday that he'd been over to France in the week to see three strikers and none of them are as good as Pavlyuchenko, i'm not sure much will come of it.
― I LOVE BELARUS (ShariVari), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 07:28 (thirteen years ago)
apparently we've already got a figure agreed with Spurs for O'Hara so let's just hope that gets done this week and nobody acts the tit looking at you Mick
― taking ilxers out with a flurry of butthurt (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 07:43 (thirteen years ago)
oh and please please please let the Karl Henry to QPR story be true. well, anywhere really.
― taking ilxers out with a flurry of butthurt (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 07:45 (thirteen years ago)
Bothroyd to Celtic then?
It would be nice to have someone knock the odd header in from the 64 thousand corners we invariably waste.
― the goon is in the gutter (onimo), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 08:12 (thirteen years ago)
nb "odd"
― Deeez Nuuults (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 08:45 (thirteen years ago)
odd = infinitely more than we currently score. I can't recall a single headed goal from a corner kick in the league this season.
― the goon is in the gutter (onimo), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 09:08 (thirteen years ago)
o'hara inevitable, really good signing for ye there.
Fancy keane? Cut you a good deal.
― ♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 10:15 (thirteen years ago)
nah i'd pass
― Deeez Nuuults (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 10:18 (thirteen years ago)
unlike Robbie bdum-tish
― Deeez Nuuults (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 10:19 (thirteen years ago)
i guess it's conceivable he could motivate himself for us tbh and Mick likes an Irishman but i don't think we could get near his wage demands
― Deeez Nuuults (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 10:20 (thirteen years ago)
personally think we shd take anything we can get for Jarv too while we're on. Berra can go, wouldn't bother re-loaning Mancienne, need a new back 4 tbh tho Zoob wd be first choice right back if he can stay fit and maybe Mick could try letting that nice young man Mouyokolo have a game seeing as he went to the trouble of buying him
― Deeez Nuuults (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 10:22 (thirteen years ago)
you're in dreamland now.
I can see spurs having to fund keane's wages wherever he goes tbh. But he is a lazy selfish cunt these days so i couldn't recommend
― ♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 10:37 (thirteen years ago)
is the cl final tomorrow or saturday?
― WHO THE FUCK READS THE (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 10:38 (thirteen years ago)
Saturday night. Stupid idea.
― Deeez Nuuults (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 10:40 (thirteen years ago)
great idea, if only because i'm on a stag in cork
― ♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 10:44 (thirteen years ago)
should be 3 o'clock on a Sunday afternoon for the Asian audience.
― Deeez Nuuults (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 10:46 (thirteen years ago)
lol we've pretty much been linked with karl henry every year since he was at stoke. could see it happen i guess, although i'd rather o'hara and i still reckon if we nipped in and dangled london in front of him he might fancy it.
keane was the stephen ireland wig-nicking ringleader wasnt he? not quite sure he'd be the best guy to serve under captain adel tbh.
bassong's come out and said he'd like to stay in london - wouldnt mind him in the slightest.
― r|t|c, Tuesday, 24 May 2011 10:51 (thirteen years ago)
He added: “I’m happy here and I’m not going back to London. I’m staying here until I know what’s going on.
“I’ve moved out of my house and I’m not planning on going back to London. Moving up here was the best thing we ever did.”
okay nevermind. the pleb!
― r|t|c, Tuesday, 24 May 2011 10:54 (thirteen years ago)
why are liverpool after friedel...does this mean reina's off? or they just want to pay the big bald man to sit on the bench?
― Suggest Banter (Local Garda), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 10:54 (thirteen years ago)
throwin him a pity transfer imo
― ♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 10:56 (thirteen years ago)
yeah sorry rtc jamie does seem to be really into it. don't worry tho i'm sure Mick'll change his mind at the last minute or do something else to fuck it up.
― Deeez Nuuults (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 May 2011 11:00 (thirteen years ago)
£7m for Coates looks like an amazing deal.
Wouldn't mind seeing Crouch go but is it realistic to expect Spurs to bring in two new strikers in the next 24 hours?
― A little bit like Peter Crouch but with more mobility (ShariVari), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:38 (thirteen years ago)
I suppose one would do.
― A little bit like Peter Crouch but with more mobility (ShariVari), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:39 (thirteen years ago)
Adebayor, Defoe, Pav, and Coulibaly seems like good depth to me.
― boxall, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:40 (thirteen years ago)
defoe adebayor vdv pav
― Juata Man (darraghmac), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:41 (thirteen years ago)
Ruiz in London negotiating a deal with Fulham atm
― Vision Kreayshawn Newsun (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:48 (thirteen years ago)
lol
― diouf est le papa du foot galsen merde lè haters (nakhchivan), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:50 (thirteen years ago)
so much for barcelona, arsenal and blackburn
To think Blackburn actually stood a chance there too!
― Vision Kreayshawn Newsun (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:51 (thirteen years ago)
Wenger could've used him tho tbh
― Vision Kreayshawn Newsun (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:52 (thirteen years ago)
too good for fulham surely
― diouf est le papa du foot galsen merde lè haters (nakhchivan), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:52 (thirteen years ago)
Parker handing in a transfer request the day before the window ends is a proper dick move imo.
― gay socialists smoking mushrooms with their illegal gardeners (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:53 (thirteen years ago)
huh? i guess it's just an aide memoire to west ham's skeezy cumdog owners that they should have let him leave months ago
― diouf est le papa du foot galsen merde lè haters (nakhchivan), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:56 (thirteen years ago)
wasnt he moving anyway?
― Juata Man (darraghmac), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 19:56 (thirteen years ago)
maybe has to put it in to nullify a compensation clause?
― Frimpong iddle I po (onimo), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 20:02 (thirteen years ago)
anderson is a fat dick
― arsenal for champs - 8/2 against (cozen), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 20:03 (thirteen years ago)
er ist dick
― diouf est le papa du foot galsen merde lè haters (nakhchivan), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 20:08 (thirteen years ago)
gyan to galatasaray/trab at a loss?!
― arsenal for champs - 8/2 against (cozen), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 20:11 (thirteen years ago)
?
― Juata Man (darraghmac), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 20:12 (thirteen years ago)
Juata Man (darraghmac)
― diouf est le papa du foot galsen merde lè haters (nakhchivan), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 20:13 (thirteen years ago)
duncan castles via mcnutty
DuncanCastles Duncan Castlesby philmcnultySunderland asking for bank guarantees before selling Gyan to Galatasaray or Trabzonspor at loss. Cost €15m, going for €6m + variables. #safc
― arsenal for champs - 8/2 against (cozen), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 20:14 (thirteen years ago)
selling the reasonably talented asamoah gyan and buying kraaaatxi would be classic steve bruce
― diouf est le papa du foot galsen merde lè haters (nakhchivan), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 20:15 (thirteen years ago)
Swap deal surely?
― Number None, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 20:16 (thirteen years ago)
can't believe arsenal fukt up the opportunity for "pjanic on the streets of london" headlines
― 8-2 fruity (cozen), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 20:16 (thirteen years ago)
incredible
Spurs should be right in for gyan
― Juata Man (darraghmac), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 20:17 (thirteen years ago)
Yep, should be biting their hands off for a straight swap. Can't see Coulibaly making the first team this season.
― A little bit like Peter Crouch but with more mobility (ShariVari), Tuesday, 30 August 2011 20:19 (thirteen years ago)
Gyan's been terrible all year since Bent left. I think he's decent too, but for a name player I wouldn't place too much faith in him if he can't get it together to step up when they needed him.
― Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 20:26 (thirteen years ago)
He lost Welbeck as well as Bent, i can see why he might not fancy it anymore, but the price just seems insane
― Number None, Tuesday, 30 August 2011 20:31 (thirteen years ago)
http://i47.tinypic.com/zjypt0.gif
― James Mitchell, Wednesday, 31 August 2011 05:57 (thirteen years ago)
^^^ He'll be doing that after a 6-0 defeat at the Emirates soon!
― Matt DC, Wednesday, 31 August 2011 08:57 (thirteen years ago)
Eden Hazard has put in transfer request according to Guillem Balague.
― pandemic, Wednesday, 31 August 2011 09:47 (thirteen years ago)
It's being assumed that's to Arsenal, but last night there was talk of Liverpool wanting an option on him as part of the Joe Cole deal.
― Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 31 August 2011 09:50 (thirteen years ago)
Hazard to Liverpool, Cahill to Spurs?
― peligro, Wednesday, 31 August 2011 10:01 (thirteen years ago)
Hazard to Liverpool would feel like a watershed moment, if I was an Arsenal fan I'd be very worried by that rumour.
― Matt DC, Wednesday, 31 August 2011 10:06 (thirteen years ago)
think i read lille were really naffed off with arsenal after the korean dude gazumping and would rather sell hazard to anyone else
― r|t|c, Wednesday, 31 August 2011 10:07 (thirteen years ago)
leeds taking gradel exit 'well' i see:
Leeds United have reluctantly accepted an offer from French club Saint-Etienne for Max Gradel.The player, who joined Leeds for an initial fee of £200,000 when he moved permanently from Leicester in January 2010, submitted a transfer request earlier on Tuesday, stating his desire to secure a move to his 'native' France and play at the highest level for his career development.
The player, who joined Leeds for an initial fee of £200,000 when he moved permanently from Leicester in January 2010, submitted a transfer request earlier on Tuesday, stating his desire to secure a move to his 'native' France and play at the highest level for his career development.
― r|t|c, Wednesday, 31 August 2011 10:09 (thirteen years ago)
dicks
― pandemic, Wednesday, 31 August 2011 10:10 (thirteen years ago)
DuncanCastles Duncan Castles £3m + £2m to Monaco if Park avoids military. £50k pw to player. #AFC to get it back in commercial revenue.
― r|t|c, Wednesday, 31 August 2011 10:14 (thirteen years ago)
keisuke honda to arsenal would be good
― r|t|c, Wednesday, 31 August 2011 10:26 (thirteen years ago)
thing on the guardian transfer update about the man united website is pretty funny, when you enter the site a picture of sneijder pops up for a few seconds before being replaced by rooney... someone on their web team having a bit of a laugh?
― peligro, Wednesday, 31 August 2011 11:08 (thirteen years ago)
ah never mind its just accompanying their 'gossip' page. serves me right quoting the guardian as an authoratitive source without doing my own research I guess!
― peligro, Wednesday, 31 August 2011 11:09 (thirteen years ago)
DRUDGE SIREN
― Jay-Z ft. Kanye 'Big Hat Club (Spiritual Big Hat Club Jazz Remix)' (a hoy hoy), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:34 (thirteen years ago)
Anzhi Makhachkala miss out on £76.2m deadline-day signing of Porto's HulkThe Russian outfit attempted to lure the Brazil international away from his current club in the closing stages of the summer transfer window
― Jay-Z ft. Kanye 'Big Hat Club (Spiritual Big Hat Club Jazz Remix)' (a hoy hoy), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:35 (thirteen years ago)
DRUDGE SIREN.
The deal is meant to have fallen through because Porto wanted an extra 3m Euro. Talk about driving a hard bargain.
― A little bit like Peter Crouch but with more mobility (ShariVari), Friday, 2 September 2011 20:43 (thirteen years ago)
Surely untrue, but I'm choosing to believe it anyway. Maybe that was also the rumoured Man City world record deal that went all quiet mid-evening?
― Ismael Klata, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:49 (thirteen years ago)
No, that one was definitely made up
― Number None, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:50 (thirteen years ago)
for that rangers striker eh
― even blue cows get the girls (darraghmac), Friday, 2 September 2011 20:54 (thirteen years ago)
Daily Mail: Doncaster make audacious bid to land Mahamadou Diarra, currently a free agent having been released by Monaco:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2045764/Doncaster-target-Mahamadou-Diarra.html
Sun: Doncaster make audacious bid to land Lassana Diarra, currently of Real Madrid
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/3853367/Doncaster-go-for-Real-Madrids-Lassana-Diarra.html
I wonder which is correct.
― Mohombi Khush Hua (ShariVari), Thursday, 6 October 2011 07:51 (thirteen years ago)
City close in on 'best young player in the world'
LEAVE ZAKARIA ALONE!
― Young Swell (Le Bateau Ivre), Thursday, 6 October 2011 07:55 (thirteen years ago)
maybe more MLS/usmnt thread fodder but
Report: FC Dallas Rejects Schalke 2.5m Pound Bid for Brek Shea
Liverpool, City, Chelsea rumored to be in the mix for this dude too
― positive dental outlook (dan m), Monday, 10 October 2011 20:04 (thirteen years ago)