RFI: Italy

Corso como 10- ma allora sei un fighetto?
discover what that means here! : )

Will be in Bergamo on the 6th and 7th of July, Florence on the 8th and 9th (and the 10th?), and Ferrara on the 11th and 12th.

in florence, after your art overdose (i like sculpture so the bargello was my favourite), the museum of the history of science is great. it's got some beautiful astrolabes and you can also see galileo's finger in a jar.

milan i've only ever passed through so i've no nothing of the place.

in venice the main joy to be had is just wandering around. there's not much in the line of nightlife, though i'd second ed's recommendation of paradiso perdito, where in the winter they do a great hot spiced wine. in the night take advantage of the lessening crowds and head down every little calle that takes your fancy. you'll stumble upon great things and experience suitable thrills from the creepy atmosphere and echoes.

during the day make sure to go on a traghetto or two, they are cheap ferries that cross the grand canal at various points and use old gondolas with the seats taken out. unless you want to be a wus, you have to stand in them. if you get scared halfway across the gondoliers will start telling you how deep this part of the canal is and pretend to rock the boat.

if you have the time a trip out to another part of the lagoon is an interesting way to see the place in context, murano and burano aren't particularly interesting, but i would recommend torcello.

for places to eat i'd recommend corte sconta for fish and alla madonna for their risotto (even elizabeth david spoke highly of it). the best place i ate in there was found by following some local old men who looked like they were going for their dinner, it was delicious and about a fifth of the price of anywhere else. there was no menu and we just ate what we were given and, of course, i can't remember the name or location of it.

i'm just back from a week on lake como. the scenery is stunning. villa balbianello is well worth a visit, it is a place that seems to be the fulfillment of an ideal of beauty. if lake garda is similar than the food and night life won't be up to much but the location will make up for it. once again go on boats as much as you can. i think boats always make for a good holiday.

have a brilliant time!

My favourite thing of all when I visited Italy last year was the crazy Osspitale museum in Siena. It was a working hospital until just a few years ago, amazing when you see all the state of the place and all the Renais sance murals on the wall. BUT THEN EVEN BETTER you go downstairs the exhibits continue and it just goes deeper and deeper and there's hardly anyone around and you get totally lost and suddenly you're in this contemporary art exhibition space with spooky music echoing around and then you are in the library and chapel of some secret society. It's just great. The exhibits themselves are nothing special but it's the most amazing place, and like I say, no crowds at all.

Siena is much more fun to visit than Florence.

I'm looking at: 11-13 Florence, Venice 13-15, Lake Como 15-16, then on to Switzerland, Germany and the UK.

God I can't wait!

But I think that's because I was only a kid, and because my family did one of those punishing see-everything-in-two-weeks kind of runs through it (not with a tour group, but with a father who has the same obsessive-compulsive-scheduling-mania that a tour group has).

You know the kind of tour we took : where you average about five museums a day, and about three churches. Where you are shoe-horned into the Vatican with a stampede of tourists and pick-pockets. Where you can't keep the names straight ("are we in Ravenna, or are we in Siena, Dad?"), where your feet are blistered raw from cobblestoned streets, and where you get all your meals from train-station kiosks.

Since that first un-promising encounter with Italy, I've gone back two more times, and enjoyed each trip much more than the last. And now I am at the point where I like the country so much that I'm planning future European visits around it.

What caused the change of heart? Well ... I've found that once I got the requisite tourist stuff out of the way, I no longer felt obligated to do that with each successive visit -- which freed up a lot of my time there for doing other, more enjoyable things, like, for instance, doing nothing ... (and by "nothing", of course, I mean the Italian version of "nothing" : wandering aimlessly about the outskirts of town, people-watching, attempting conversation with strangers, admiring the art that's not in galleries, sitting down for a proper meal, etc).

If this is your first time in Italy, you should probably see all the sites that you're "supposed" to see -- because they really are worth the seeing (especially the Uffizi, if you have any interest in Renaissance art or sculpture or architecture). If you hate lines, then pass the time by people-watching or flirting or drawing or listening to music. Exhaust yourselves with everything that's been recommended by the ILXers, and everything that's been cited as a "must do" in the books and on the websites.

Then remind yourself to visit Italy again in a few years. This time, have no more than a date and a name on your schedule ("on tuesday the fifteenth we will be in Urbino") -- and even _that_ should be flexible, so that if you suddenly decide you want to spend two weeks in Como, it won't create a logistical nightmare with your train tickets.

On this second trip, avoid the "must do" -- you've already been there/done that. Instead, let whatever fills the day fill the day (it might be boring, or it might be fun. It might be crazy or it might be calm. You may find yourself in the Doumo, or in the San Siro. You may end up having dinner in somebody's 100-year-old apartment, or out in some sunflower-filled field somewhere). This sort of spontaneous, low-key tourism will give you a whole new appreciation for Italy, as well as a better understanding of the folks you meet there.

ciao. :)

i mostly want to eat, and see a skyline other than my own. just need some directions to start my wandering...

this RFI is also more of a general what to do, ie. lali puna is palying a show, check this site for listings, etc. anybody know of any non-tourist events?

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone! I'm taking notes for my next trip. :)

also has anyone been to pordenone? if so: how far from venice? what to do?

does anyone know where i can find a map of northern italy on the web that has more than just the big cities?

Alloggi Alla Scala, a seven-room place run by Signora Andreina della Fiorentina, is homey, central, and tucked away on a quiet square that features a famous spiral stairway called Scala Contarini del Bovolo (small Db-€77, big Db-€87, extra bed-€26, breakfast-€7.75, CC, 5 percent discount for payment in cash, tell her when you reserve if you’ll be paying by credit card, sometimes overbooks and sends overflow to her sister’s lesser accommodations, Campo Manin #4306, San Marco, tel. 041-521-0629, fax 041-522-6451, daughter Emma SE). To find the hotel from Campo Manin, follow signs to (on statue’s left) “Scala Contarini del Bovolo” (€2.10, daily 10:00–17:30, views from top).

Yesterday's NY Times had this on the restaurants of Rome: http://travel2.nytimes.com/2006/03/26/travel/26rome.html?th=&adxnnl=1&emc=th&adxnnlx=1143537437-fdWgEeQZ0jxnfh91O6yjjQ (Don't eat before lunch. I was starving by page two)

Florence: The best place in the city is "Il Latini" (Via il Prato, 68/r, 055/294766, closed sunday) but be warned, there is always a crowd outside. Tell them to book if they can (we were lucky: Sister's friend's boyfriend works there so we got in on short notice) and not to be polite: Push or don't eat :) There are two sittings, go for the later one. Stunning food. Otherwise there is always "Osteria del Boia" (Osteria del Boia Via Ghibellina, 70r Tel: 055 2638940) beside Santa Croce. Does an incredible Bistecca Fiorentina. Changed owners a while ago but no negative reports yet. Neither are touristy but it being florence everyone speaks English of a sort.

As to the others, can't be of any help. Hope they have fun.

ed, anything you can conjure up would be mightily apprciated. i know in rome they're staying on piazza navonna, if that helps.

If I think of anywhere else I'll put it in. Otherwise Piazza Navona is near enough Piazza di Spagna (and via della croce of course) that they can go so far as to have as many as TWO glasses of wine and get home safely :)

Don't worry about being out of place etc, the people in most places are there for the food. It's the very touristy places that'll try to fleece them and generally take away from their experience as a whole. That said it sometimes seems that Italy's very existence relies on tourism so it's harder to avoid than you might think.

Anyway, they'll be in all these romantic places: do you think they'll have eyes for anyone but each other? *sigh*

http://www.outlet-firenze.com/bottega_veneta_outlet.htm

in rome, there's a really good place just down the street from the pantheon, called due colonne. we had a good lunch there.

we spent two weeks in florence, siena and rome, and never had any problem with not speaking italian. sometimes we had to use hand gestures, and having good guidebooks is a big help, but in the cities especially english is usually enough to get by. (i heard an italian giving directions to german tourists in english, because it was the only language they all understood.)

http://www.ristorante-belvedere.it/

The Restorante Belvedere is on the beach and the fishing boats pull right up to it. They have an English version of the menu available, which they kindly offered to me. When I choose the Italian one, they were very patient with me when I butchered their language. There were a few tables full of tourists, but lots of locals as well. The food was wonderful and set me back about 30 euros for a three course meal with wine.

I'm going to Italy in January. No real destination other than Rome because that's where I'm flying into, but I'm going to try to grab a train up to Venice and back through Florence/Siena. This will be my second trip to Italy - the first time I was in Lake Como, Milan, and Trieste.

I'll consider the trip a success even if I just hang out in Rome and drink coffee all day, but recent reports encouraged.

Well aware of that. It keeps the fair-weathered tourists away.

A good itinerary would be Rome-Perugia-Siena-Arezzo-Firenze-Venice- Zurich

Siena has the truly excellent Palazzo delle Papesse modern art gallery.

Going in June - probably Rome, Venice and Milan. So - revive. And anything important/recent to know?

drive around - dont fly around. also, visit assisi if you get the chance.

Don't drive or fly around, take the train, it is cheap and you will meet people.

I wouldn't spend too much time in Milan. Take a look at stopping in Siena, Perugia, Assisi and or Ravenna on your way up to Venice.

Not to denigrate Milan, but given a limited amount of time on a first trip to Italy, it wouldn't be top of my list.

I was waiting for Ed to appear and talk about trains, which are very cool in Italy. Try to arrive in Venice when it's dark because you'll be even more blown away when you wake up to it in the morning.

Milan is no good unless you have fashion business but I've heard good things about 10 Corso Como, which is expensive or trendy shopping.

The Duomo in Milan is very impressive (on the outside) and you can go up onto the roof, but as others have said I wouldn't bother spending more than a day there at most.

Thanks, Marco. I've scanned the campsite's website and there are several photos of people in and around the pool with their brazenly uncovered heads and their outrageously non-skintight swimwear, so hopefully this is just an overzealous tip for travellers that bears little relation to reality.

Ned - yeah this was puzzling me, too. For the sake of consistency you'd think they would have to insist that bearded men wore special beard covers and that anyone with a remotely hairy body would have to wrap themselves in cling film.

Ah, the colpo d'aria thing made me laugh hard - blame hyperprotective Italian moms!

Re...vive?

Milan, Venice, Sicily (mainly Palermo and Catania) and Rome.

Really keen on getting the train from Venice to Sicily but it's a hell of a long ride so thinking Florence and Naples on the way.

Would recommendations on bars, venues, and how to find gigs. Non-obvious tourist stuff? The sort of stuff that should be really easy now compared to fifteen years ago, but sorta isn't?

I thought this was going to be about the anti-vaxxer health minister firing all the scientists from the board that supervises health policy in Italy.

My advice. Go in the autumn. There’s a lot more between Venice and Sicily and if you want gigs places like Bologna and Verona get a lot of touring acts.

more antipasto less anti-vaxxers ffs. As if you didn't already need more proof that the 5 star lot are complete scum of the earth morons.

Fuck Florence if you want non touristy things - it's possible but it's so bloody crowded. It's a shame because obviously it's awesome in many ways. My sister in law is there now and seems to be enjoying it but it's still busy (obviously).Avoid the summer.

I've been to Naples in October/November and had good weather and the streets are a bit quieter. I don't find Naples terribly touristy, a lot of people en route to Capri, etc in the summer/autumn, but I loved the place, they've done a lot of pedestrianising over the last ten years which has improved yr ability to walk around without being run over.

Already vaccinated, already going midway through December until February.

Ed you had an impressive list upthread, anything you'd add/remove/change?

Florence is great in the winter / out of season. Even some of the big attractions are fine if you go at the right time (Palazzo Pitti first thing in the morning,etc).

I’m completely out of the loop on bars / venues but Nottingham Forest in Milan is great for cocktails.

Trains are superb. I think I did Milan-Napoli earlier this year and it’s painless.

napoli is an excellent city for walking about, lots of spectacular views. we stumbled upon a rad little bar/bookshop/record shop called perditempo which offered some agreeably experimental/eclectic DJing as we sipped our beers

Thanks ShariVari. Been to Florence before, beautiful place. Although can't remember if I did Palazzo Pitti. Spent a day at the Uffizi and alsop the Duomo. Also had the best panino in my life.

The trains are indeed excellent, last time I went Venice - Bolzano - Florence. Though I hear it gets progressively less excellent the further south you go?

Will check out Nottingham Forest. Enjoying the owners' salty replies to reviews on google.

Added Perditempo, thanks ogmor.

So far

Milan 18-24 December, then Venice. Seems like some good suggestions here?

https://www.modalitademode.com/rubrica-milano-en/36-hours-in-milan-not-ordinary-itinerary/

Florence being touristy- I still bring up how A Room With A View (1908) talks about Florence being touristy.

You still do, Carey

I bumped the other thread, but hey since we're here does anyone have suggestions/cool tips for Genoa, Elba, Sapri, or Cosenza?

bump

we def wanna go off the tourist track and into the south as far as time allows

it's one of my hits! wait who is S-?

I think the most south in Italy I have been is driving around from Naples to Amalfi, 2-3 years ago. I really like the white wine from Liguria/Genoa. Just remember "pigato" very crisp and easy.

excellent, tyvm

yeah we wanna head down to Calabria, where my wife's family (and like 90% of US Italian immigrants) are from. We're looking at a night in one of the smaller Amalfi towns on the way.

Have you already been down there? We have a local friend from Sicily that we want to visit with and we keep putting it off because we can't make seasons work out.

nope, first time in Europe for either of us

Bumping thread again with a non-standard RFI...

Before leaving for (but after booking flights to) Italy I've injured my knee.

Pretty much the worst thing I can do for it is stand for long periods, which really sucks for a place so rich in galleries and sites of antiquities. Walking long distances to is Not Good. At least sitting and gorging myself is still in (and er, worry about the resultant weight gain once the knee's better).

I'm in Bologna at the moment, no definite plans except need to get to Palermo by the 26th of January (though maybe go on the 18th to see Palermo vs. Salernitana).

Anyway, excited about the train from Napoli to Palermo - perfect sedentary sightseeing. Any other recommendations like this?

Bologna is excellent for just eating. I've been twice and don't have any memory besides eating and walking. But that is almost everywhere I go, I guess. Are you wearing a knee brace or anything?

It really is. More places I want to try than time I have to try them. Also been invited to a couple of people's houses for food which has been great.

Nah no brace, perhaps I should have looked into one. The physio said to take it easy, which I thought I was. Obviously not enough. Venice clearly not the best place if you want to avoid walking and stairs (also pretty much anyone's house in European cities).

Ugh Venice, city of people with rolling luggage. I have knee problems a lot. You should just go to the pharmacy and get a compression sleeve, or even an ace wrap to at least keep it stable and keep it from swelling when you do walk.

revised tentative itinerary:

fly to Amsterdam, stay a day, then plane to Nyons area in France for a few days

Nyons to Genoa, 1 -2 nights there

Genoa to Salerno and then bus to Minori (Amalfi coast) for a night

Salerno to Paola on the west cost of Calabria (the fast train goes this way)

Paola to Cosenza inland by bus, 3-4 nights total in Calabria

back to Naples for flight out to Amsterdam

has anyone here spent time in Calabria?

I only went to Genoa once, to change trains coming from the Cinque Terre, but there was a problem with our train and we got stuck there for several hours. The food in the Genoa train station cafeteria was ghoulish: I felt sorry that chickens died only to be prepared so miserably. I don't know what there is to do there besides eat, but that would be good enough for me.

Why are you going to Nyons?

to stay with friends for free! 3-4 days

I had not heard of Nyons, but I see that it's close to Montélimar, famous for its nougat which got it a mention in "Savoy Truffle".

haha noted!

I had not heard of it either but it's super, super close to vacqueyras/gigondas where I did a grape harvest.I've gone in and out of the Orange and Avignon train station a lot.

we would consider alternatives to Genoa anywhere on the Ligurian coast if anyone has recommendations, just stopping for a night or two because it's on the way to Florence

well the Cinque Terre is lovely! I haven't been for twenty years though. when we went we just showed up in Vernazza, asked at a bar if he knew of any rooms in town, ended up staying with the bartender's sister's family for a couple of days. a kind of proto airb&b I guess.

thank you, will investigate.

Genoa is worth it - a bit gritty with a real port atmosphere. The old town is dark, sinewy and interesting. Also it's a perfect base for some nice day trips, eg Cinque Terre but also Porto Fino, which off season is truly lovely.

Sestri Levante is a very nice medium-sized town that you can use as a base to visit the Cinque Terre, etc. It is pricy, but Hotel Vis a Vis is awesome with wonderful views of two bays.

I just booked for a trip to hike in the Dolomites in the first week of September. Does anyone have any recommendations on hiking (especially overnight stays in a Refugio), where to stay, restaurants, etc.?

I recommend 'Midnight In Sicily' if anyone is looking for a history of Italy focussing on the corruptions of Andreotti and a personal take of the years 1978-1992. It's in English.