That's certainly the case for Amy and Rory and there's no problem with that - it all happened. River is the problem because she's asynchronous to the rest of the cast, so it's not a case of her 'remembering' the Byzantium, it hasn't happened to her yet. Fine, you say, it never can happen to her, except she mentions the bloody thing in Silence In The Library.
Basically Moffat's two clever storylines have tangled up a bit. Which doesn't spoil my enjoyment of it all one tiny bit, and is fun to think about, but is a HERE BE DRAGONS for the continuity police...
― Groke, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:27 (fourteen years ago) link
Yeah I meant the later River rather than the one from the end of this series.
This shit must be fucking confusing for children. Wouldn't be surprised if Moffatt toned it down for the next series.
― Vulvuzela (Matt DC), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:30 (fourteen years ago) link
I think for a certain type of kid it'll be incredibly exciting. I remember going "WHOA MIND BLOWN" when I was 8 and watching some of the complicated stuff they had going on at the end of the Baker/start of the Davison eras, which is probably why this season really resonated with me in a way that the last few didn't. Where they have to get the balance kidwise is appealing to that kid, and the kid who wants to see the monsters, and the one who wants to be scared, and the one who wants Amy and Rory to be happy... but generally I think children like mysterious stuff going down, even if they're tuning out the details and focusing on the exploding TARDIS or the Stone Dalek.
― Groke, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:43 (fourteen years ago) link
I dunno, I wouldn't have thought this was too confusing, especially as the episode seemed to be bracketed up into a dozen little mini-stories, each with their own resolution. Also, isn't it the plot holes in the peripheries that are the fascinating bits? That's the stuff you actually remember.
― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:46 (fourteen years ago) link
If you get the imagery right you can get away with murder, sense-making wise. The most timey-wimey old Who story was Warrior's Gate, which I saw as a nipper, didn't understand the narrative of, but the robot axemen, time-shifting lion men, etc absolutely stayed with me and I remembered the story very fondly.
― Groke, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:50 (fourteen years ago) link
My friend's five year old (a Who nut) loved the finale, although he said 'it was quite confusing'. But yeah, I don't think kids mind being confused. And there was so much cool stuff for them to focus on. He went berzerk when the Alliance turned up. 'Cybermen? Daleks?! SONTARANS!!!' (he loves Sontarans). The odd nerd moaned that 'oh the Cybermen and Daleks would never team up', but if the Tories and Lib Dems can... Joking apart, why not? That sort of joyless nitpicking takes all the fun out of it. And setting up the Alliance only to have them play no part in the Big Bang was a nice touch, subverting the RTD finale mode. Making a single Cyberman and Dalek threatening was a great achievement.
― Count Palmiro Vicarion (Stew), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:06 (fourteen years ago) link
We're going to get the River origin story next year, right?
I am so over origin stories. I'd like to see more stories I don't already know the conclusion to, thanks.
― trishyb, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:09 (fourteen years ago) link
much better if River remains a little mysterious.
― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:12 (fourteen years ago) link
I'd like to learn about her eventually, but they could keep up the intrigue for at least another series and I'd be quite happy.
― rhythm fixated member (chap), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:18 (fourteen years ago) link
Kids are perpetually confused, so they handle it much better than adults. They can just write chunks off as "confusing stuff" and move on.
The problem with too much made-for-kids stuff is trying to remove all the possibility forbconfusion, which makes it dull for adults and leaves kids unstretched. I think Moffatt gets this, so even episodes that are very kid-focused (like the first one) will take sudden zigzags into the strange.
― stet, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:28 (fourteen years ago) link
I was often confused by Doctor Who as a kid (Ghostlight, anyone?). Loved it all the same.
― rhythm fixated member (chap), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:29 (fourteen years ago) link
Also, you know, kids will fill in the blanks with their own interpretation, and (lucky them) don't yet understand the concept of 'canon', etc. Also, surely the story wasn't THAT confusing?
To get back to the episode, though, wasn't it a fucking cracker? Surprised to see so much internet grumbling (or maybe not). Haven't watched a single episode on telly, though (all iPlayer and t0rrents).
Can Aldo come back now, too?
― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:42 (fourteen years ago) link
Am now rewatching the whole series from the start, picking up on new bits and bobs that I didn't notice before, and that feed into the finale. Also makes me wish they could somehow have both adult and child Amys as simultaneous companions. Maybe a child Amy from a parallel universe, as otherwise adult Amy would remember it all from being a kid.
― Attention please, a child has been lost in the tunnel of goats. (James Morrison), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:48 (fourteen years ago) link
Ghostlight was simple in plot, pretentious in aim, and ultimately shit for that
― Britain's Obtusest Shepherd (Alan), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:53 (fourteen years ago) link
Oh, ten year old me didn't have the foggiest what was going on in Ghostlight, but loved the atmosphere of the thing.
― rhythm fixated member (chap), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:56 (fourteen years ago) link
That's exactly what 32 year old me made of it too.
― JimD, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:58 (fourteen years ago) link
Didn't they essentially cut big chunks out of Ghostlight and it was untelligible because there were bits missing that were never compensated for?
― Vulvuzela (Matt DC), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 12:08 (fourteen years ago) link
I remember reading something about it being changed loads between original script and airing, and that the writer (didn't he write Lungbarrow too?) was pissed off because his story didn't make sense. Wish I could find it.
― bettina arnderpandts (Autumn Almanac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 22:09 (fourteen years ago) link
Marc Platt. Wikipedia has a load of information about it (therefore it's true).
― bettina arnderpandts (Autumn Almanac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 22:20 (fourteen years ago) link
He didn't fall into the crack and pop out later in time (though this WOULD have been good (but also worth avoiding so it's not doing the same long-long-build story arc as Grant Morrison's various Batman titles)
loved the shrinking universe feel (very Final Crisis #7, for comics ppl)
OTM, I was thinking the same thing! Also, the Doctor saving earth by travelling into the heart of the sun -- isn't that All-Star Superman?
I think the "That's a fairytale"/"Aren't we all" Doctor/River dialogue in Flesh and Stone is kind of meant to foreshadow the reset button but yes it makes very little sense.
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Actioncomics583.jpg
And setting up the Alliance only to have them play no part in the Big Bang was a nice touch, subverting the RTD finale mode. Making a single Cyberman and Dalek threatening was a great achievement.
Yes yes yes.
― how much can a koala ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (sic), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 00:51 (fourteen years ago) link
bah, mentally insert Actioncomics583.jpg as punchline after the last link :(
― how much can a koala ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (sic), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 00:52 (fourteen years ago) link
L'Engle's A Wrinkle In Time is still the gold standard for how to manage children-oriented timey-wimey bits and bobs. Moffatt seems to be working off the same playbook and is pretty much kicking ass.
― Elvis Telecom, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 01:10 (fourteen years ago) link
Agreed! Think that's why I enjoy it so much...he doesn't play down to kids but he doesn't play up to adults. And I know that 10 year old me and 34 yo me could watch it together & have a riproaring time.
― VegemiteGrrrl, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 01:48 (fourteen years ago) link
I remember reading X-Men comics as a little kid and had few problems understanding all the time travel and alternate universe dopplegangers as a little kid; don't be surprised that children can understand this kind of stuff pretty well!
― Nhex, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 01:56 (fourteen years ago) link
Aldo, I remember you....and you are late for this thread.
― Humphrey Plugg, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:33 (fourteen years ago) link
don't be surprised that children can understand this kind of stuff pretty well!
exactly! also, as a child i was way better at papering over plotholes, way more interested in trying to think about how things worked (even if i got it wrong), and also had way more patience as a reader of long books i'd now find boring - if children are engaged in a piece they're a great deal more generous than adults would be.
― c sharp major, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 12:22 (fourteen years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShGhRRD5fCQ&feature=player_embedded
The series in two minutes.
― ô_o (Nicole), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 13:00 (fourteen years ago) link
Think the people who claim that Amy doesn't grow as a character throughout the series are mental and rong and possibly wilfully ignoring it because they don't like Karen Gillen, but it's also possible that's because her character is actually reset three or four times throughout the series - ie we see completely different Amys at various points in the series because her own experiences keep getting rewritten.
― Vulvuzela (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 14:13 (fourteen years ago) link
liked that video!
good point about Amy's character resets, more interesting as a whole, now that i think about it (but i never had a problem with Amy)
and also had way more patience as a reader of long books i'd now find boring
definitely so true for me too. can't believe i did all that tolkien and narnia as a kid
― Nhex, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 18:03 (fourteen years ago) link
narnias are like 120pp each
― how much can a koala ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (sic), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 23:22 (fourteen years ago) link
I smoked a lot of Aslan in college
― VegemiteGrrrl, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 23:43 (fourteen years ago) link
i still can't imagine even trying to read them today
― Nhex, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 23:49 (fourteen years ago) link
You mean as a kid today, or going back and rereading them now?
― VegemiteGrrrl, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 23:50 (fourteen years ago) link
I mean now as an adult. I mean, even when I was reading them I recognized these were often boring, but at the time I gobbled up kid books at a crazy rate, regardless of quality - I think I picked stuff purely on genre or wacky premise (mostly junk, even by kid standards)
― Nhex, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 23:57 (fourteen years ago) link
:D
― how much can a koala ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (sic), Thursday, 1 July 2010 00:40 (fourteen years ago) link
I usually read the Chronicles of Narnia about once a year, the first three books even more frequently. You can knock out two or three of them in a long afternoon!
― the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Thursday, 1 July 2010 00:44 (fourteen years ago) link
Read all of them again recently while bed ridden. The early ones especially are nowhere near as boring as the Lord of the Rings (I loved the vast tracts of Teutonic tedium as a child of course). That's if you can get past the rather obvious but also rather weird Christian stuff. The Last Battle is both very weird and very boring. A preachy surreal fable.
― GamalielRatsey, Thursday, 1 July 2010 08:23 (fourteen years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7_jrqZD6Ns
― Born too beguiled (DavidM), Thursday, 1 July 2010 08:31 (fourteen years ago) link
we're just going to repost that every two days until Christmas?
― how much can a koala ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (sic), Thursday, 1 July 2010 14:07 (fourteen years ago) link
The Doctor will be on an episode of the Sarah Jane Adventures before Christmas, but it won't be the same.
― ô_o (Nicole), Thursday, 1 July 2010 14:27 (fourteen years ago) link
Eric Cantona is set to inject a bit of Ooh Ah into Doctor Who.The former Manchester United star is being lined up for a role as an evil alien alongside Time Lord Matt Smith.
The former Manchester United star is being lined up for a role as an evil alien alongside Time Lord Matt Smith.
― James Mitchell, Thursday, 1 July 2010 14:37 (fourteen years ago) link
sb'd for posting arrant nonsnenes
― how much can a koala ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (sic), Thursday, 1 July 2010 15:01 (fourteen years ago) link
ha
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l4vv6drgwi1qc6xeao1_500.jpg
― ô_o (Nicole), Thursday, 1 July 2010 19:02 (fourteen years ago) link
I only came for the dancing...
Most people have said what I thought, in fact ailsa nailed it in one of the first posts that it was very Bill & Ted. I enjoyed it quite a lot (and agree with a lot of Tom's Final Crisis comparisons) despite it being full of holes. But do you know what I absolutely hated? A beautiful, wonderfully written and delivered speech about Billy and his TARDIS - which then turns out to be the lead-up to a crap "something old, something new" wedding-related pun.
I like Suzy's solution to the Big Bad, which is what the generally accepted rumour says is true.
For people asking above Moffatt has said River Song's story will be completed during his time as showrunner.
Eric Cantona is from King Of The Shit Non-Spoiler, the Daily Star, but then Rusty's been swanning round Hollywood telling people Johnny Depp is going to be in his Doctor Who film so who knows.
Is which episode Neil Gaiman is writing next season or what it's called too much of a spoiler? I don't think so, but that means nothing.
― Portugal vs Brazil: a game of two Alves (aldo), Thursday, 1 July 2010 20:53 (fourteen years ago) link
The bit where Amy appears in the Pandorica at the beginning, when you're expecting the Doctor, and says 'Ok kid, this is where it's going to get complicated' is just marvellous, puts a chill up my spine. Revelling in the fun. Like the beginning of a detective story.
― GamalielRatsey, Thursday, 1 July 2010 20:56 (fourteen years ago) link
since Gaiman has been scrupulous about not revealing his episode title, he presumably considers it something to keep unannounced at this point
― how much can a koala ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (sic), Thursday, 1 July 2010 21:36 (fourteen years ago) link
Well apart from naming the title in a BBC interview last week, and saying which episode it was on his Twitter today, yes.
― Portugal vs Brazil: a game of two Alves (aldo), Thursday, 1 July 2010 21:49 (fourteen years ago) link
he's said for about six months it will probably but not definitely be the third or fourth episode next year. last I saw he was still concealing the title. [shrug]
― how much can a koala ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (sic), Thursday, 1 July 2010 21:55 (fourteen years ago) link
Fighting about spoiling is BORING. I feel like people who whinge are asking for too much coddling - buy your own cotton wool for wrapping shit in. Someone should just screengrab the Gaiman tweet - can't say much against that or BBC site drops.
― Vuvuzilla (suzy), Thursday, 1 July 2010 22:12 (fourteen years ago) link