Is the Guardian worse than it used to be?

There's a lot of irritating stuff, yes. My favourite columnist is George Monbiot, by a mile. Something I like about the Independent when I do get it is that its liberalism is less metropolitan and more about the common good. Needless to say, though, the Guardian's series of articles on public service under that very title were awesome.

Today's G2 seems designed to add fuel to my (f)ire: one page of 'Style' after another, including a column on Why We're So Disappointed That Madonna Employs A Stylist.

Also good in Guardian: John Patterson re. cinema.

oh god, ask hadley today is just... tooth-grinding.

"today"

"At what age is a man too old to wear band T-shirts?"

Martin McCall, by email

"About 15 - that young enough for you, Martin? And to follow one rhetorical question with several more, what in God's name is the point of band T-shirts anyway? To show your allegiance to a band? Do you think anyone else cares? To impress onlookers with your esoteric musical knowledge? See previous reply. To make people stare at your bony chest? Again, I refer you to the first answer. To show that you once attended a live gig? Wow, like, a pair of golden headsets to the guy in the Nirvana '91 T-shirt. In case you happen to bump into the lead singer on the street, he sees that the two of you are kindred souls and therefore invites you to join his band and you then go on the road and have all the manly bonding sessions followed by groupies that your heart could desire? OK, I'll give you that one, although this does suggest that you still harbour the fantasy that you might bump into Joey Ramone in Waterstone's.

"As for ladies in band T-shirts, give me a fricking break. First, gals, a badly cut, poorly made, oversized T-shirt is good for nothing other than wearing to bed and the gym. Second, too often women who wear band T-shirts appear to be going for what we shall call Groupie Chic. It is a style amply modelled by Kate Moss in recent years, and can pretty much be summed up as skinny faded black jeans, ankle boots, a ripped band T-shirt and a cropped fur jacket. In other words, a girlified version of Marc Bolan's or Keith Richards' wardrobe, as though the woman has been so busy, um, sleeping on the band bus she hasn't had time to clean her clothes, so she's now wearing ones belonging to her musical companion. This column has no time for such nonsense."

Yeah, because women have *no* interest in music whatsoever except for sleeping with musicians. What CENTURY is this cretin from?

I think I stopped wearing band T-shirts by the time I was 23. It wasn't necessarily a conscious move tho. I doubt I will ever wear one again tho - I guess it seems lame unless it's an old obscure or overlooked thus hip act (even this I dunno about). I don't notice many people over 20 wearing them. Does Matt DC still have that Save Ferris T?

I only want to sleep with musicians if they are hot as they are (their musical ability is pretty irrelevant in fact).

dear teh grauniad - a long time ago/we used to be friends...

It went downhill after I left.

or were you PUSHED?

http://homepage.mac.com/alexinnyc/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2007-09-02%2015.37.57%20-0700/Image-D15E03FF59A011DC.jpg

heh. (sorry alex, no harm intended)

http://www.abc.net.au/sport/thesportsdesk/images/200607/20060707henrydive_derblog.jpg

xp

i was being harsh really. i don't care what's on other people's t-shirts that much. just trying to work out why i stopped wearing/wouldn't wear band t-shirts myself.

Any t-shirt which isn't plain white clearly sucks that's why.

i couldn't agree less

I still wear band t-shirts if I like the band. Why not? I don't *define* myself or my personality by my music tastes any more, I haven't done that since I was about 18. But that's not the same thing as wearing a band t-shirt.

I suppose the fashion journalist in discussion cannot fathom the idea that clothes are just something you put on, rather than a definition of or statement about your personality.

This is definitely something that happens as you age - or rather, has happened to me as I aged. There's a subtle difference between Statement Clothes and just things you put on.

Guardian editorial worldview circa 2007:

http://www.astucia.co.uk/images/sce/galibier%20tunnel%20_three.jpg

why else would you buy a band t-shirt if not as a statement or definition of personality?

I didn't know it was a band t-shirt okay?

because you're cold xp

In the past I've usually just bought them as a keepsake of a gig I've enjoyed. The piece tracer quotes is idiotic fluff, obv. I'd be embarrased to admit I'd written that.

Because you like the design? Because you like the music? Because it was given to you (this is where most of mine come from)? Because it was a souvenier?

x-post

you wouldn't actually buy a band t-shirt because you liked the design but not necessarily the band tho...would you?

because you like the music = statement/definition of you/your taste

given to you = not you buying

you wouldn't actually buy a band t-shirt because you liked the design but not necessarily the band tho...would you?

No, plus I've only ever bought them @ gigs.

because you like the music = statement/definition of you/your taste

Probably yeah, but w/smaller bands there's also the knowledge that in buying it, yr helping to supposrt the tour.

i actually bought a comets on fire t-shirt solely because the design was so awesome. (it was at a gig, but they hadn't come on stage yet.) then i heard the music and i liked that too. i suppose if i hadn't liked their music, or thought it was boring, it would have posed a problem.

a friend of mine, who shall remain nameless so that alex in nyc doesn't stalk and kill him, bought a huge iron maiden patch when he was 14 and sewed it across the shoulders of his denim jacket. he had never heard a note of iron maiden, but he wound up becoming the biggest iron maiden fan i know, and even sung in a band later, where his vocal style was almost inseparable from bruce dickinson's.

my take on this: do not read hadley freeman.

this resolution made some time ago, stands as strong today as it ever did.

it's a crass and deliberately invidious piece of writing. such an attitude, if sincerely held, could be turned around on pretty much ANY choice of clothing. so forgeddaboudit

the last band t-shirt i bought - robyn!

alan i can't help myself, i know i'm sick and need help.

is there a thread for best band t-shirts? must see

Taste is something that I have. It does not define me. Clothes are something I wear. The statement I am making is "I don't really care about clothes any more."

If I'm going to make a statement about clothes, I'll wear a bright green paisley jacket to a dronerock festival where everyone else is in leather.

I suppose my Hawkwind t-shirt is a statement, it says "ha ha, I'm wearing a Hawkwind t-shirt, I care nothing for fashion, I am wearing the shirt of a band so deeply uncool you can suck my left one because I love them!" But it's certainly not a statement saying that I want to f*ck any of Hawkwind or that I have a musician boyfriend whose Hawkwind t-shirt I'm borrowing, which is the assumption of that article.

> I don't notice many people over 20 wearing them.

*SOBS*

> you wouldn't actually buy a band t-shirt because you liked the design but not necessarily the band tho...would you?

EAR t-shirt with the putney on the front = great. EAR live = terrible. (EAR on CD = ok, plus pram and stereolab were supporting)

"Do you think anyone else cares?"

the core MOTOR of fashion is YES OF COURSE I THINK OTHER PEOPLE CARE THAT I AM WEARING... WHAT'S "IN". no less dumb than wearing something else that forms part of your identity. so it's just a puerile throw away bit of nonsense. heh. fashion in 'being puerile' shocker.

I gave up caring whether I was too old to wear band t-shirts or whatever a long time ago. Really, if you're getting that worked up about what other people are wearing, the joke's on you, I think. To paraphrase - "Do you think anyone else cares?"

Yesterday I wore an X-Ray Spex t-shirt. I am 31. Oh noes.

If a FAC 51 Hacienda T-shirt counts as a band t-shirt, I am wearing one NOW. I am more than 31.

Unless you buy shirts at arena shows or whatever they cost a tenner or less which is cheaper than t-shirts tend to be (aside from plain ones from Primark or something). I guess it bugs fashiony people cos it's fashion for people who don't give a shit about fashion

you wouldn't actually buy a band t-shirt because you liked the design but not necessarily the band tho...would you?

whoa there, people do this All The Time! witness all the motorhead/def leppard/poison tees on sale at top shop/debenhams/whatever.

What's a putney, Andy?

I bought a Mega City Four t-shirt the other week. I bought it cos I like the band and I like their logo, and out of nostalgia.

witness all the motorhead/def leppard/poison tees on sale at top shop/debenhams/whatever

really? since when do those shops sell (official?) band merchandise?

but how do you know people buying them don't like the band (even if it's 'ironic' or just liking the idea OF liking them, if that makes sense) anyway?

i can imagine some people, not just kids or people buying for kids, buy band t-shirts because of the design and without really knowing about the band but can't be that many really. this is even more of a facile 'want to look cool' statement tho isn't it? that sense of knowing what to buy but not really knowing why...

remember the 'little girls wearing Nico 'Chelsea Girl' t-shirt thing (altho i approved of this ha)

Uhm yeah, there were tons of high street chains selling classic rock tees (I presume they just bought a load wholesale).

i figure these are aimed at and bought mainly by teenagers

really? since when do those shops sell (official?) band merchandise?

since AGES, honestly. i doubt your "average" 14-year-old Miss Selfridge customer would have a clue/give a shit who Def Leppard/insert 80s hair metal band here are. it's just a noisy "cool" design that'll make her look a bit like Peaches Geldof or whoever.

I'm sure I remember even Primark licensing some lame/classic 80s band tee designs recently.

and As Matt DC has admitted, sometimes people buy band tees without even realising that's what they are!

nb this whole discussion is clearly on the wrong thread.

Someone was selling MC5 shirts a good few years ago and it was the only place that you could get MC5 shirts so I know loads of people that bought them as they had been desperate for years to get them.
I got mine online but it was probably the same shirt.

a putney

http://www.vintagesynth.com/misc/vcs3.jpg

so called because they were made in putney (not far from you actually, there's a website that gives the actual address of the place they used to make them, cottage industry style, deodor road, sw15).

http://www.ems-synthi.demon.co.uk/snaps/everynun.jpg

Hang on a second, I went to primary school at 49 Deodar Road!!

Oh, I didn't, it was 95-97 Deodar Road (since moved). My best friend at the time lived at 50 Deodar Road, though.

I've got a Synthi t-shirt but my god, I want a t-shirt with that nun on it.

I am currently wearing a T-ahirt of a band that I saw live but didn't like much. It's a pretty design and the band aren't well known enough for many people to even know it's a band T-shirt.

I have had it on since yesterday so should probably take it off soon.

It is for the sort of people who write for the Guardian.

increasingly heading towards a situ where that is their only readership

ctrl-alt-r or click the little page thing in the url bar in firefox to enter 'reader view' - all the text, most of the pictures, none of the nagging.

“By far the best thing about London is the green space,” says Audrey de Nazelle, a scientist at Imperial College London who co-chairs the International Society for Environmental Epidemiology’s policy committee. “The amount of parks really makes it the green capital of Europe.”

A city can always be greener imo but to say this about a city as sprawling and diverse as London does feel a bit odd, esp. as she also admits those green spaces aren't easy enough to get to for most.

I take it that Audrey doesn't visit Turnpike Lane's Ducketts Common very often

She's obviously never been to Edinburgh.

I absolutely loved the amount of green space in both Edinburgh and Glasgow as well. I’d assume with London she’s just commenting on total space that’s green regardless of accessibility or how wild it is etc.

And yes in my experience the Scottish urban greenscape was very accessible. (Much more friendly to “green” 420 activities too if you know what I’m sayin.)

I don't know if London is brilliantly livable, whatever that means, and I haven't lived in every city in Europe, but the parks thing seems true to me. And the attached condition of "they're impossible to get to" seems like a separate point bolted onto that one.

London for sure could be more walkable but that doesn't mean the parks that are dotted around the city are not easy to walk to.

Most areas seem to have a massive park. The comment in the article makes it sound like you can't use your local park cos there are cars shooting past the entrances at 100mph all day.

Lol, this is such a crazy comment:

The large parks near her home are “extremely dangerous” to access, with a lack of pedestrian crossings and vehicles that speed through without looking.

Possibly one for the unpopular opinions thread but I've never had any interest in parks and I've never known what you're supposed to do in them. I don't run, don't cycle, don't go out for walks, don't sunbathe, don't have any kids, don't have a dog. Basically I feel like a fish out of water in a park. I prefer being indoors I suppose.

I'm 100% with you on this. I don't like dogs, especially dogs I do not know, and the last time I went to a park I spent half an hour longer than I intended because a particularly scary-looking dog was circling the exit without a leash. Fresh air and mild exercise is good for me but it's not exactly fun.

One more for the DOGS thread.

DOGS

most dogs are absolutely fine, it is wankers with dogs that is the problem

I take my dog for walks in wanker-free zones (so not parks!)

I know the demographics of this place means London's inclusion is going to raise the most anger but the other choices are pretty wild too imo!

Barcelona's population has been in uproar about how unlivable it has become since the tourism takeover for years! Might as well include Venice.

And this might be partially due to knowing a lot of German and French people but I have never, ever heard anyone say "what I'd really like to do is move to Vienna".

Lol the other day I saw a sign that said something like “Take a risk. Visit Linz”

and I was like… I should do that

I stayed in Poblenou in Barcelona a few days in May and for a big hotel area it seemed fine, in some respects ideal even. There's seemingly a lot of older people in that area still and sitting out in those squares and small streets all the way down to the seafront. I saw anti-tourist graffiti but the vibe on those streets with a good mix of locals and visitors just seemed right to me.

It's pretty hard to gauge a city's livability as a tourist though, no? If you live there what feels just right to a visitor may seem crap compared to what the place was like five years ago.

Yes of course, no doubt it's more and more expensive and a victim of success more than most large cities due to its location and climate too. I'm part of that problem altho I never use Air BnB.

The large parks near her home are “extremely dangerous” to access, with a lack of pedestrian crossings and vehicles that speed through without looking.

tbf this could be true if her local large ‘park’ is Clapham Common - where this has been an local issue for years…It sounds ridiculous however for the large parks that most people will access.

Is there any city in Europe that could appear in an article like the above one without people who live there being enraged?

Barcelona or other places seem nice when I visit but that's probably also partly cos if you live in London you're paid a little more according to property prices, idk.

Finding a specific "best city" would be hard even if you didn't exclude as many things as that weird Guardian article, but isolating one city from another seems sort of impossible, especially if we're comparing places we visit to ones we live in, as Daniel says.

All of that said I'm sure there would be an interesting way of comparing cities but it would need numbers in it not just vibes/loose sentences.

Is there any city in Europe that could appear in an article like the above one without people who live there being enraged?

I think circa 2008 if Porto came up in a list like this there'd be celebration, but in 2025 absolutely not. So hypothetically there might be cities that haven't been hit by mass tourism/cost of living crisis that would enjoy the title, but by definition they also wouldn't be plaves Guardian writers write about.

So yeah basically you're OTM I think.

It's a list of "capital cities" but they're bending the rules a bit to get Barcelona in there.

Oh I thought that meant capital as in "capital idea, old bean!".

I feel there's maybe been some confusion about amount of green in Edinburgh vs amount of greens
https://www.google.com/maps/search/golf+course/@55.9399474,-3.2225537,10102m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MTIwOS4wIKXMDSoKLDEwMDc5MjA2OUgBUAM%3D

tbf this could be true if her local large ‘park’ is Clapham Common - where this has been an local issue for years…It sounds ridiculous however for the large parks that most people will access.

― Bob Six, Thursday, 25 December 2025 bookmarkflaglink

I live nearby and while its busy its just not true?!

Maybe it was about Brockwell Park? What's been going on there in recent years is one of the most gravely worrying scandals in modern Britain.

They've cancelled the Lambeth Country Show there which is pretty sad - apparently that doesn't make money (anymore?) but the numerous walled-off music festivals there do (tho I know the council are caught in the middle whether to maintain or reduce these too).

I was mainly joking just having read about all the storms in teacups there, but obviously uses of the parks is a hot enough issue in general.

The annoying part being, for years the evil briefcases at Lambeth Council rationalised all the paid festivals by saying ‘these underwrite the Lambeth Country Show’ and now…

Some quality writing from Pitchfork staffer and Guardian columnist Shaad D'Souza, who this year discovered Dido:
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2025/dec/25/the-best-old-music-we-discovered-this-year

"The first time I heard White Flag, I was roughly five years old and it happened, memorably, as I was tasting Heinz's new green and purple ketchup. But I listened to her second album on a whim this year after listening to the new Snuggle album and marvelled at what a good Dido approximation their song Woman Lake is. As it turns out, Woman Lake only has the light perfume of Dido.

The woman herself contains much more than featherweight power ballads: there's the harried Balearic grooves of Sand in My Shoes; Mary's in India, a song about – I believe – stealing your best friend’s man while she's on holiday; and Paris, a dejected and atonal ballad that’s not too far removed from PJ Harvey at her starkest. I was mainlining Life for Rent for a few weeks, but I had to stop – a friend told me I was beginning to romanticise everyday life too much."