Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

no, she said they gave her independence by letting her walk around the warehouse in the suit and phone the president - her exposition talks about how the girl must be incredibly strong because she tore herself out of the suit, past all the various bits of alien tech

I thought the hand moving was bcz River tweaked a bit of wiring - the girl's arms are not long enough to reach the gloves so mechanical means would be necessary to make the hands move anyway

nah remember, at the same time River's asking the Doctor whether he thinks the suit could move by itself, and saying 'maybe when the little girl said the spaceman was coming after her to eat her, it really was' or something like that (not that i recall the little girl saying the spaceman was coming to 'eat' her but w/e)

i think a purge on that scale would lead to so much documentation tho (esp. filmed), enough for people to be reminded often enough. ah well.

surely if you're reminded often enough that means your brain is wiped often enough and you end up like the old man in the orphanage!

except now with the new 'kill on sight' order presumably you also keep having bouts of inexplicable homicidal rage

surely if you're reminded often enough that means your brain is wiped often enough

this'll do nicely, thx :)

I'd forgotten about the Frances Barber in the door bit. They're setting up something interesting there. What did she say to Amy again?

Re: Timehead. I recall a comment from the Moff about how there had never been a married couple in the Tardis before. At the time this just seemed like a reference to the relationship dynamic, but now I can't help but read it as an early hint of the timey-wimey conception that's being set up. The Tardis's power makes Timelord babies. And who does little girl regenerate into? Frances Barber?
I think the notion that she's River Song is a red herring. She'd be crossing her own timeline, and although she's obviously holding things back from the Doctor, she surely wouldn't hold THAT back. Or maybe she doesn't know. And I'm not sure the 'killing the best man in the universe' thing refers to the Doctor. It's just a bit too obvious.

The thot plickens...

Here's a ridiculous notion: the little girl regenerates into... The Doctor! So the Doctor has to engineer the death of one of his paradoxical iterations...

Another great ep. I love the kid-friendly way Moffatt deals with dangling plot threads at the end (as in yesterday's ep and "The Big Bang") -- with Matt Smith basically saying, "Er, I guess we still haven't find out about the Silents/the kid in the astronaut suit/etc, but I'll guess we'll find out in an upcoming episode..."

nah remember, at the same time River's asking the Doctor whether he thinks the suit could move by itself, and saying 'maybe when the little girl said the spaceman was coming after her to eat her, it really was'

I figured this could be that the Silents were trying to get her into the suit, but she couldn't remember them, just the suit...

also confusing: is she not meant to be IN the suit when she makes all of the phone calls? does she remember that she's in it, then, or...?

Here's a ridiculous notion: the little girl regenerates into... The Doctor! So the Doctor has to engineer the death of one of his paradoxical iterations...

this was my first thought! but no point in speculating any more about this as it will presumably develop every week...

so sad when River realized this was the last kiss she would ever share with the doctor b/c it was the first he had with her

― Mordy, Sunday, May 1, 2011 7:25 AM (6 hours ago)

I hated this because I was hoping that all the romantic stuff between River and the Doctor was an elaborate con on her part. We don't need any more sexy doctor shit, thanks.

is the idea that river and the doctor's sexy adventures may now have been unwritten?

mmm Time Lord coprophilia

one thing i liked about last weeks's re Gayagenda Return was that Canton's "yes" re wedding illegality was a reference both relatively subtle and not played for laughs (but i smirked anyway). this felt like a first for DW. it probably justified the more comical p(g)ayoff with Canton and Nixon at the end of DOTM too. any more thoughts on that most welcome.

I don't know what that was but I enjoyed it. also sorry, but I totally love River/Doctor which is weird because I hated all that crap during Tennant's era. I think it's the sadness of seeing a relationship progressing in reverse? or maybe just because River Song is badass.

no bcz a) people forget about them by the time they would go to write something down* and b) the purge is ongoing, the Silence are still around in present-day Who Earth

can buy this but a little bothered by the fact that Amy made no move to kill the Silence the first time she sees one. Surely the memory of the original directive still exists, unless Amelia Pond has never once seen footage of the moon landing. which is conceivable I guess but also unlikely.

"wibbly wobbly"

^ yes this is a giant fuckup in re Amy and Rory and River

xpost

iirc "Eyepatch Woman", as Frances Barber was designated in the credits, said something, not necessarily to Amy, about "I think she's dreaming". Make of that what you will in re: phantom pregnancies and "kill all aliens" directives

They never knew that Amy had met the girl in the suit in the house, so I thought that it might have been Amy that ripped the girl out the suit, going "yoouurre my timmey wiiiimmmey dauuugghhhtterrr!!!"

The girl is definitely affected by being in utero within the tardis, like Rose was affected by the Tardis in the whole Bad Wolf fiasco.

Frances Barber will have her revenge on the Silence.

sorry, but I totally love River/Doctor which is weird because I hated all that crap during Tennant's era. I think it's the sadness of seeing a relationship progressing in reverse? or maybe just because River Song is badass.

This is exactly how I feel.

Nothing much else to say, haven't really decided how I felt abt yesterday's. Was left with a slight feeling that it was missing something, but not sure if that's just frustration at having to wait all series to get the loose ends tied up.

(Also had higher expectations for this series than for previous ones, so easier to dash, I suppose. At the start of the last series I was excited by the promise of Moffat but not sure I'd like Smith.)

what's so bad about the silence?

if they've been around for thousands of years directing all human history... did they only make the bad stuff happen?

weird that people only in 1969 work out how to remind themselves

there were some proper good bits in that ep tho

can buy this but a little bothered by the fact that Amy made no move to kill the Silence the first time she sees one

that was before the doctor put the message in the apollo broadcast. even though it was after the apollo mission. "wibbly wobbly", as aldo said.

it was a pretty silly solution -- people forget them unless it's linked to something memorable -- but there are so many loose ends it almost seems forgivable.

possibly i've forgotten the end of last week, but the start of this week confused me more than it should. they sort of skated over how amy didn't shoot the kid, and i don't get how the feds came to have a 'shoot on sight' policy for the tardis team.

yeah that is a puzzle.

Amy hit the helmet but missed the kid's head. They showed a shot of the kid screaming but unhurt with a bullet hole in the visor in this episode.

The "shoot on sight" policy didn't need an explicit reason considering that the dude doing the shooting was part of a plot to get everyone in a hermetically sealed room that The Silence couldn't get into so that they could have a base to work out of on Earth.

not cool with Nixon being allowed in the TARDIS tbh

I thought the hand moving was bcz River tweaked a bit of wiring - the girl's arms are not long enough to reach the gloves so mechanical means would be necessary to make the hands move anyway

There was definitely a suggestion that the suit could operate independently (perhaps remotely?), but when it confronted the Doctor in 2011 and raised its visor, the Doctor seemed to recognize whoever it was inside.

it was a pretty silly solution -- people forget them unless it's linked to something memorable -- but there are so many loose ends it almost seems forgivable.

We're not supposed to remember the directive to kill the Silence because it's associated with the moon landing, instead, the moon landing happens to have a global audience and so the Silence's unintentional post-hypnotic suggestion will have been suggested to as wide an audience as possible (who don't consciously remember it, of course).

Also, are we sure that's Nixon and not, like, President Ed Sullivan?

Amy hit the helmet but missed the kid's head. They showed a shot of the kid screaming but unhurt with a bullet hole in the visor in this episode.

Yeah, I don't know if Amy was a crack shot to begin with, but she seemed to be firing blindly/wildly at the spaceman, so it's not surprising that she missed.

Lot of focus on how weird the Nixon impersonation was but the actor was really effective imo.

He was great, and I really liked the "record everything" nod to the Nixon tapes.

Yeah, apparently the Doctor didn't tell him that Nixon could stop after the moon landing broadcast.

Liked Whovian-Nixon, found it funny how smiley and not-awkward he was. Like, maybe HE would have been better than irl Nixon.

OTM. There was a whole 'imagine if Nixon was not a complete shit' thing going on which fits with the slight distortions of history theme going on atm.

Also, having watched ep 1 again, why were people complaining about River shooting the Doctor's hat off from in front? She was definitely behind him.

Surprised how THRILLED I was when the little girl suddenly started regenerating.

that was before the doctor put the message in the apollo broadcast. even though it was after the apollo mission. "wibbly wobbly", as aldo said.

Grrr, this is such giant bullshit if they don't specifically set up that he's changing history as per Christmas Carol. I like my time travel to pick some rules and stick to them.

OTM. There was a whole 'imagine if Nixon was not a complete shit' thing going on which fits with the slight distortions of history theme going on atm.

note that the Doctor also sets up Nixon to become a paranoid nutbar who assumes everything is secretly out to get him, in their last scene, too

Also, having watched ep 1 again, why were people complaining about River shooting the Doctor's hat off from in front? She was definitely behind him.

nope. Let's say that the schoolbus (why are they catching a schoolbus as tourists, too?) is headed north.

Rory and Amy get off on the east side of the bus.
Doctor is revealed as bus leaves, on western side of road.
Rory and Amy cross road, east->west.
Doctor gets off car, greets them, is facing west->east with the desert behind him.
Hat flies off his head, west->east.
Cut to River, standing with road extending behind her.

There is no road behind the Doctor in the previous shot, or any of the previous shots in that direction, so she can ONLY be standing on the eastern side of the road, facing (and firing) east->west.

ok then... hard to argue with that

the misdirect on Amy's nanomonologue is annoyingly bullshit - her life couldn't have been "so boring" before Rory metaphorically "fell out of the sky" because they have known each other since they were small

(also we have not seen anything that made it not boring since they started dating that is down to Rory himself, rather than Amy's impulsiveness, but we have only seen hints of their Leadworth life)

lolled at the script that kept making Nixon say "people".

And next week, about 4 yrs too late for Memeland but even so, PIRATES!

rewatching ep 1, and re amy's pregnancy: "i wasn't going to mention it but you've put on a few pounds..." - future Doctor.

And next week [...spoiler content]

ARGH

Sorry, it was on the "NEXT WEEK" thing at the end. Are those off limits in this thread too?

most people probably don't think so, quietly, to themselves, but no-one disagreed with me upthread iirc

(I change the channel or hit the spacebar or run out of the office as soon as they come on)

Grrr, this is such giant bullshit if they don't specifically set up that he's changing history as per Christmas Carol. I like my time travel to pick some rules and stick to them.

it occurred to me that due to the prospect of people's brains failing after remembering the silence so much they may have edited out the silent from the moon landing footage - so amy would never have seen it, nor rory nor...tho maybe centurion rory remembered it wherever he actually is in 1969 (still guarding the pandorica in london?) until he was turned back into regular rory.

centurion rory doesn't exist anymore though right? It was a different universe that was destroyed in the second big bang. which is why he doesn't quite remember it.

????

the whole point of using the moon landing footage is that every subsequent generation of humans will also see the moon landing footage, particularly because humans are going to spread out into space meaning this piece of historical media will still be watched FOREVER, a handful of times, by EVERYONE. (except um people with no or limited access to audiovisual media for whom this piece of footage is not top priority)

editing out the footage would kind of um obviate that. but really who's going to watch the moon landings footage enough to damage their brains? except people looking for evidence that the moon landings were faked and, well.

that was an xpost obv

and i meant 'editing out the silent from the footage' in that second para

lol the thing I love about the way Moffatt writes is the way you can effortlessly extrapolate off of his stories into weird, unexpected directions, like this: editing out the footage would kind of um obviate that. but really who's going to watch the moon landings footage enough to damage their brains? except people looking for evidence that the moon landings were faked and, well.

i thought the idea was more that just being reminded about the silence in general enough times would lead to brains frazzling, not specifically repeated views of the same footage (tho this would not have remained anyway? so edit out or wait for it to erode? argh)

dude in the home's brain frazzles because there are a grillion silents living right under his nose, so he is constantly seeing them and then having his brain wiped.

everyone else sees the silents pretty regularly and gets their brains wiped each time and lives with it okay - a couple more sightings and wipings, courtesy of the moon landings footage, isn't going to make a huge difference.

srsly don't get where yr idea that it would 'erode' from the physical record is coming from?

idg what is bothering ppl about the time stuff in the episode. obviously it's not presented in some chronological finality order (the way things turned out after the events of the episode) but in a looser causative order. some of the complaints seem to be like asking why Marty McFly starts to disappear in Back to the Future if he ultimately got his parents back together. Why can't we assume that after the message was sent out Amy + Rory participated in the Silence killing like everyone else?

srsly don't get where yr idea that it would 'erode' from the physical record is coming from?

because the Doctor tells Canton "even information about these creatures erases itself over time" which i took to mean actual documentation

dude in the home's brain frazzles because there are a grillion silents living right under his nose he's not frazzled so much as he's missing a lot of time... he's had so many interactions that they've taken up a long chunk of his life equating to +/- 2 years, and he's unsure of the date b/c for him – subjectively – a lot less time has passed than actually.