Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

Grrr, this is such giant bullshit if they don't specifically set up that he's changing history as per Christmas Carol. I like my time travel to pick some rules and stick to them.

it occurred to me that due to the prospect of people's brains failing after remembering the silence so much they may have edited out the silent from the moon landing footage - so amy would never have seen it, nor rory nor...tho maybe centurion rory remembered it wherever he actually is in 1969 (still guarding the pandorica in london?) until he was turned back into regular rory.

centurion rory doesn't exist anymore though right? It was a different universe that was destroyed in the second big bang. which is why he doesn't quite remember it.

????

the whole point of using the moon landing footage is that every subsequent generation of humans will also see the moon landing footage, particularly because humans are going to spread out into space meaning this piece of historical media will still be watched FOREVER, a handful of times, by EVERYONE. (except um people with no or limited access to audiovisual media for whom this piece of footage is not top priority)

editing out the footage would kind of um obviate that. but really who's going to watch the moon landings footage enough to damage their brains? except people looking for evidence that the moon landings were faked and, well.

that was an xpost obv

and i meant 'editing out the silent from the footage' in that second para

lol the thing I love about the way Moffatt writes is the way you can effortlessly extrapolate off of his stories into weird, unexpected directions, like this: editing out the footage would kind of um obviate that. but really who's going to watch the moon landings footage enough to damage their brains? except people looking for evidence that the moon landings were faked and, well.

i thought the idea was more that just being reminded about the silence in general enough times would lead to brains frazzling, not specifically repeated views of the same footage (tho this would not have remained anyway? so edit out or wait for it to erode? argh)

dude in the home's brain frazzles because there are a grillion silents living right under his nose, so he is constantly seeing them and then having his brain wiped.

everyone else sees the silents pretty regularly and gets their brains wiped each time and lives with it okay - a couple more sightings and wipings, courtesy of the moon landings footage, isn't going to make a huge difference.

srsly don't get where yr idea that it would 'erode' from the physical record is coming from?

idg what is bothering ppl about the time stuff in the episode. obviously it's not presented in some chronological finality order (the way things turned out after the events of the episode) but in a looser causative order. some of the complaints seem to be like asking why Marty McFly starts to disappear in Back to the Future if he ultimately got his parents back together. Why can't we assume that after the message was sent out Amy + Rory participated in the Silence killing like everyone else?

srsly don't get where yr idea that it would 'erode' from the physical record is coming from?

because the Doctor tells Canton "even information about these creatures erases itself over time" which i took to mean actual documentation

dude in the home's brain frazzles because there are a grillion silents living right under his nose he's not frazzled so much as he's missing a lot of time... he's had so many interactions that they've taken up a long chunk of his life equating to +/- 2 years, and he's unsure of the date b/c for him – subjectively – a lot less time has passed than actually.

because the Doctor tells Canton "even information about these creatures erases itself over time" which i took to mean actual documentation

fair point.

I took that to mean that The Doctor stores his holograms on VHS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFoVU0DMRSc

he's not frazzled so much as he's missing a lot of time...

except that the Doctor says "if your memory gets wiped enough your brain gets frazzled"

Say, Rory isn't an Auton anymore, right?

No.

River/Doctor timeline graphic (too big to post directly)
http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/8/2011/05/keo7f.jpg

^ mucho head-hurtiness ensues, but thanks!

The one thing I never fully bought is that the Doctor and River are living their lives exactly back-to-front; wouldn't it make more sense for them to encounter each other at random points in their lives, so if you mapped one of the chronologically the other would be bouncing all over the place?

Wasn't it only this season that they established the back-to-front bit, or had they mentioned it in the Weeping Angels/River two-parter? Because the "checking our diaries to see where we are in our respective timelines" bit is an overly complicated solution if their intersections are that orderly.

well not necessarily, they're trying to figure out exactly which parts they'd gotten up to

I was thinking River was in the suit but surely she would have remembered that whole setting and wouldn't have been as shocked as Amy and Rory, so now I don't know who it was.

But you don't need to flip through a book and ask "have we done this yet, have we done that" if one of you is living the book left to right and the other is living it right to left. You only need to flip to the next page, in the correct direction.

I am pretty sure they are both writing left to right, unless Gallifreyan is a right to left language

I watched the second episode again as I was getting a bit confused. To the point where I may have to watch the entire last series again to make sure I understand the references in this series. Now, is that a clever ploy by the BBC DVD department to shift more copies, or is Moffat and co. just really weaving an intricate story? Call me cynical but I hope I'm not being played.

I'm also struggling with this whole pregnancy storyline, it's girly nonsense, I don't want my assistants going all soap opera, their job is to get lost, find a problem, meet a scary monster, scream for the doctor e.t.c. If this isn't part of a wider story arc involving kick ass adventure and mind boggling timey wimey stuff then I am going to be seriouly pissed off. It better not be a Time Lord love child. If I wanted guff like that I'd watch Eastenders.

That is all.

Anyway Rose and Martha are the ones who are totally trying to have Time Babies, likely successfully in Rose's case.

Front to back / back to front - you know what I mean! River shouldn't ever have to ask "have we done that thing yet," because if she remembers it, he hasn't done it. If their timelines are actually reversed.

But you don't need to flip through a book and ask "have we done this yet, have we done that" if one of you is living the book left to right and the other is living it right to left

I was thinking that

then I got to feeling gently sad about what she said about "one day I'll meet him and he won't recognise me at all and it'll be the death of me", and what if they aren't actually reversed but she really believed that

(this post is either stating the obvious or reminding people of things they don't want to be reminded of until they get revisited by the series, so, apologies either way I guess)

xxpost- which is why I hate all that "Rose and the Doctor get it on in a parallel universe" nonsense. Dr Who never has and never should be about romance. Jesus it makes me mad. One of the best things about the old school, I'm thinking Pertwee/Baker era is precisely that he is sexless. When you are a time lord with the ability to travel through space and time, getting your rocks off goes quite low down in your list of priorities. I hate it the most because it is playing for an audience who otherwise wouldn't watch (lets get the mums involved type schtick) I know I look like a purist, but some things work and shouldn't be changed. Again I say, if I wanted that type of slushy programme, I'd watch it. Don't try and make Dr Who sexy!

tbh I am quite happy that they are continuing the grand Who tradition of hiring ridiculously beautiful actresses, only now giving them more to do than just scream in a corner; every companion in the new series has been much more in the Sara Jane/Leela mold than the Victoria mold and the series has been much stronger for it, so I can cheerfully pretend the Doctor sexytime stuff isn't happening (and even then it's sometimes great, as in Martha's case where it was unrequited and drove a good bit of the actor chemistry)

then I got to feeling gently sad about what she said about "one day I'll meet him and he won't recognise me at all and it'll be the death of me", and what if they aren't actually reversed but she really believed that

That's why I'm having trouble with it - River is the only person who has outright said they live backwards with respect to each other, I think, but she's also the person who ought to have sufficient evidence that they don't. Unless River and the Doctor came up with the diary thing when they weren't sure what order they were meeting in, and she sticks with it out of habit, but I don't know. It feels more like Moffat had two ideas he liked - the diaries and River's sadness at realizing their first kiss is their last kiss - and used them both even though they don't work together.

yet another nitpick, where did the 1969 US gov get the tech for building the doctor's cell? They have all this collapsed star what-have-you super dense material, and a fancy futuristic electronic anti-grav looking door, none of which phases Canton more than a video phone, and yet they still have to use rocket tech to get to the moon.

xxpost Don't get me wrong, I like the eye candy. Amy is possibly the hottest assistant ever, and the sara jane/leela mold is a great description. I am just wary that we could lose the plots to slushy nonsense. I am a big fan of River because she is strong female lead. My personal favourite was Donna, total legend. Feel like I should go and write a dissertation on Dr Who and the role of women, but you now, can't be bothered.

Bring on the next episode!

xp: They had all of the alien stuff in Area 51 to draw upon, plus The Doctor himself was likely covertly nudging them down the correct path since he wanted the room built in the first place.

plus The Doctor himself was likely covertly nudging them down the correct path since he wanted the room built in the first place.

yes this is fairly strongly hinted at with his "gosh at a casual eyeing for the first time, I exactly recognise what material that is and what it's properties are, gosh what a surprise that you have that to lock me up in, such a surprise" speech

Oh, I was wondering abt ledge's question too but I kept forgetting to ask.

Question I may kick myself for not remembering the answer to: has Area 51 been mentioned in a Doctor Who episode? Is "alien stuff in Area 51" officially part of the Doctor Who 60s universe?

at this point i would like to complain about the most OTT thunderstorm ever during the kids home investigation.

lol

SB'd you for that

re Area 51: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamland_%28Doctor_Who%29

Thats the animated series isn't it? Never seen that. Any good?

no because it has Greys

I thought it had been mentioned in passing in another story...

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Area_51

Apparently in Sarah Jane Adventures, not regular canon Who

i thought the first Dalek episode of nu-Who took place in area 51, but i just checked and it actually took place in Utah. I also forgot that it introduced Adam - just about one of the least memorable companions ever, but i guess that was the point of his character.

Obviously, River and the Doctor aren't living literally back-to-front and she must have known this because didn't she only just meet the Doctor at two different points in his life at the same time (future dead doctor, and doctor who hasn't kissed her yet)? but it's true generally speaking, i suppose.

btw anyone considered that the Time Child is their baby and not Amy's? Maybe the picture was a red herring, like "here is doctor-babby and her aunt amy".

I did consider that

Other things to consider: River is Time Babby, Amy is Time Babby

I wonder if Moffatt ever saw the thing Lawrence Miles did in the books with the humanoid TARDISes

Neil Gaiman, on the other hand...

I hated almost all the romantic stuff in the Rusty era (exception being the Girl In The Fireplace and maybe some of the stuff with Rose's dad) but the emotional dynamic in the Tardis at the moment is fantastic. Almost welled up a bit when River realised that was the last time she'd kiss the Doctor (except it might not be, I doubt the timelines are as straightforward as River thinks they are). Like that the Doctor is in some ways the most clueless person in the Tardis right now.

There seemed to be big holes in this episode but I'd be very surprised if it isn't revisited in the finale or before. We're definitely going to see Canton again, and no way is that the end of the Silence.

Regenerating child was a proper wau moment though, didn't see that coming AT ALL, but there has to be a way out of Rusty's kill-all-the-Timelords cul-de-sac and a second generation would be a straightforward way to do that. Also, the Doctor had a granddaughter once upon a time, which suggest sex at some point, not ruling out River being a second-gen Timelord.

I was okay with the moon-landing footage bit, it just about makes sense.

Did we ever find out what actually caused the crack in the end, or is that still to come?

Next week's looks much more straightforward but still fun though, who's writing it? Surely they can't fuck up a pirate episode.

I thought it was the explosion of the TARDIS at the end of last season that caused the crack...?