Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

The USA doesn't get this episode for another week because of Memorial Day.

wait what now?

http://www.newsarama.com/tv/Doctor-Who-Delayed-America-110520.html

Really liked it. There is a slight sense that Moffat is driving the series into the sun by exploring all potential concepts. Any future writer will have to deal with something initially much more simplistic, a single-narrative solitary adventurer, more conceptually ascetic. But who gives a shit, it's a great ride. I liked the hints that the Doctor was... well, you know, all that 'shenanigans' stuff.

Yeah, the thing at the end reminded me of the Goya as well.

Fucked up ending after all the "They are people now! You can't kill them! They are you! Your memories, your feelings, everything! Eyeballs in judgement! WHY! WHY! WHY!" to go straight to "Bye then FleshPond!" ZAP!

Shitty writing when they can't keep the Doctor true to his own principles for 5 minutes.

My kids thought I was cheating because I called the shoe swap early on. Ganger making a Ganger to fool Rory was kind of obvious as well.

Good monster and some good ideas but it didn't hang together well enough for me.

The Cushing and McGann movies were all on cable today (Watch channel I think) but I forgot to set my recorder.

<3 McGann <3

It did seem harsh, but the Ganger Amy wasn't sentient, unlike the other Gangers. He didn't kill her, he just broke the psychic link. I'm sure it'll be properly explained next week, but there were plenty of hints. So it seems that Amy has been whisked off at some point between the first and second episode of this season. First time she saw the Frances Barber eyepatch lady was when she was in the spooky house with the Silence. She was on the run for 3 months before that.
Other hints I've read about but will need to watch again to fully pick up on - the jelly baby bit maybe wasn't just a reference to an earlier regeneration... More importantly, which Doctor did Amy tell about his death? The real Doctor I guess. And what did the Doctor say to Amy when leaving the ganger Doctor to his death? "This time we're not invited". So he knows...

Just to clarify, Ganger Amy wasn't the same kind of Ganger as those in the castle. She was some advanced alien tech - whoever has kidnapped Amy put the Ganger in her place. The Doctor finally twigs and breaks the psychic link.

All the other previous Doctor dialogue bits mean the jelly baby ref was.

No, Amy was pretty much exactly the same sort of Ganger. Maybe even a more human/Dickian one so more of a dichotomy that he killed her.

in light of Memorial Day non-airing, I turn to the magic of the interwebs to watch it anyway. :D

But was she more human? The real Amy is off being pregnant with Frances Barber looking over her. That real Amy has a psychic link to the ganger, so she's living out her life as Amy with the Doctor and Rory. The visions of FB are flashes back to her reality. But unlike the gangers who are separate, sentient beings, this Amy is just an avatar. Her kidnapping seems to be part of a big conspiracy. And remember, this kind of cloning tech is not unique to the castle. A certain alien race have been seen to use it in the RTD era after all. Perhaps they have something to do with this?
The Doctor's actions do seem harsh, but there's no point judging him outright before we know what's really going on. This season has brought back the notion of the Doctor as duplicitous and willing to make sacrifices, a bit more McCoy into Time War Doctor perhaps...

This was a pretty duff episode I think, despite the fun story arc ending. Pacing was lumpy, several bits just felt odd (how long was that little lad on hold waiting for his pretend dad to fail to save his real one? And why had the doctor pre-planned that call for that point in time anyway?).

There was some swapping round of the sonic screwdriver, the doctors passed it from one to the other at a couple of points...except there was then definitely at least one moment where the doctor that shouldn't have had it did. And by the end they both had one anyway (ganger doctor used his to pop himself, real doctor used his to pop Amy). So somehow this fake flesh also managed to turn itself into a fake sonic? Which worked? And if it did, why did they ever bother passing it back and forth? Just didn't make much sense.

And neither did the doctor's motivation for fooling amy about which doctor was real. What did he say, something like "we needed to see it through your eyes"? Felt pretty cheap and pointless really.

Surely he has some back up sonics in the Tardis?

the hologram kid was lousy, as was ganger-jennifer's cgi cartoon jaw drop - but both ganger women did some of the best acting in this (jennifer verging on gollum at times).

hi - new to doctor who (came on board w/ 11 last season), enjoying it thoroughly so far, two questions:

1) just watched the 'prequel' for the next ep - are those the justified ancients of mu mu? i know they have some history w/ the doctor
2) could someone recommend ~10 or so episodes that would give me a good overview of who up to now - entertainment being the key value but filling in history, canonical villains, key ep's of essential previous docs - thinking more than just the reboot though obv would like current run amply represented.

xposts to emil.y upthread: Jen-Ganger strongly reminded me of the Bacon triptych
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp201/sharonjoy666/0c99c400.jpg

is that closer to what you were reminded of?

could someone recommend ~10 or so episodes that would give me a good overview of who up to now - entertainment being the key value but filling in history, canonical villains, key ep's of essential previous docs - thinking more than just the reboot though obv would like current run amply represented.

I second this request. Esp if they're entertaining.

~10:

S1: Rose, Dalek, Empty Child/Doctor Dances
xx: The Christmas Invasion
S2: School Reunion, Girl In The Fireplace
S3: Blink
S4: Silence In The Library/Forest Of The Dead

pre-reboot takes a lot more eps to get a grasp on a Doctor, as the stories are all multi-part.

anyone think Morpeth Jetsam is meant to trick nerds into looking for Master or Nestene anagrams?

I was trying to make sense of the name. Morpeth is a town in Northumberland, and Jetsam is stuff that sinks when you throw it overboard. To me, the name is either just a combination of neat sounding words or the company decided "Useless Northern Shit" wasn't catchy enough.

But obviously it means that at some point in the next few hundred years the Bainbridge department store in Newcastle becomes a galactic mining company.

Sic's list is pretty much spot-on. If you have the time, I'd also add:

S1: Father's Day (first new episode to muck about interestingly with time)
S2: Rise of the Cybermen/Age of Steel (reintroduces villains who seem especially relevant, given the Doctor muttered about them and their plans in the episode just on)

funny to not include series finales in the list, altho for them to make enough sense i guess you do have to watch several other eps in each series

also all RTD's were exactly the same, except stupider every year

Mess.

The big blue bloke hanging with the Justified Ancients of Mu Mu was in the opening of the last season's opener wasn't he? River Song tricked him into giving her the Time Agent's wristband? Some kind of Jabba the Hut style space/time gangster?

Another thought - Amy, ganger Doctor and Cleaves all melted with a click of the sonic. They didn't melt in the usual way, as the eyes went first. So perhaps we haven't seen the last of the Flesh Doctor after all?

It was Jetsan, not Jetsam, if that helps the anagrams? (I think)

More anagram speculation. There's another alien race, one who has access to clone tech, in Morpeth Jetsan. Of course, there are four letters left that don't make obvious sense - jeep. It probably means nuffink.
Amy whisked away in the children's home surely? There was a clear continuity "error" where she had considerably more scores on her face between scenes.

I was going to say that it's pretty obvious when Amy was taken: it's when she was taken in the programme and only her communication chip left behind. However, doesn't she see the strange woman in the hatch before that happens? Which would indicate that she was already ganger-Amy. Hmmm.

I think the Bacon might be the closest I'm going to get with the painting. I'm beginning to think it only exists in my head.

Sontarthm?

Amy whisked away in the children's home surely? There was a clear continuity "error" where she had considerably more scores on her face between scenes.

nah, that was meant to mean she had been in there for ages, repeatedly seeing the roofhangers and then forgetting. She spots eyepatch lady just before going into that room too, iirc?

However, when the Silence snatched her just after that scene, they may have been after her artifical-tech-ness for some reason, as there certainly seemed to be no reason to kidnap and hold her as it was.

x-post, dare say we both rc then

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oGBXhSJDCZ8/TceUBDoDBrI/AAAAAAAAIkw/gOLt6IdhIQo/s1600/jabberwock.jpg

I was getting Jabberwocky from the final version of Jen's ganger.

Naturally, I disagree that the 'Classic' series (as the BBC now calls it) takes more time to grasp what's going on thatn the modern series - a four-parter is only 100 minutes (less if you skip the credits) and because it doesn't have any of the story arc stuff it feels more coherent. My list, therefore, isn't much changed from the last time it was asked:

Hartnell: The Daleks. Where it all begins for them, but sets up the Dalek mentality very well. The Time Meddler. WTF there are other Time Lords?

Troughton: The War Games. Very long, but has a lot on Gallifreyan process. Probably not as essential - Troughton is the Doctor worst hit by losses and apart from a couple of cracking Cyber-stories (Tomb of the Cybermen and The Invasion) doesn't really add anything to the history you're looking for.

Pertwee: The Sea Devils. This (and the as-yet unreleased The Daemons) are probably the best two Delgado-era Master stories and this has many people's favourite parts in it, plus a seriously fucked up score. Planet of the Spiders. Pertwee's swansong and an attempt to bring Zen philosophy into Time Lord history, of which there is a fair bit it seems. The Three Doctors is very heavy on Time Lord history but is maybe a bit slow for new viewers.

Tom Baker: Genesis of the Daleks. Where Davros begins. Most fans think it's at least an episode too long but ymmv. The Deadly Assassin. More Time Lord stuff, and a direct rip from The Manchurian Candidate. Was really heavily condemned at the time for violence and contains several scenes that have absolutely stayed with me since first seeing them. City of Death. I love it, it's Tom having some of the most fun he ever did in the part, it has scintillating dialogue and I still think the Jaggeroth ship has something to do with Moffatt's thinking.

Davison: Mawdryn Undead. Exactly the sort of timey-wimey stuff that Moffatt does. Bits of the plot raise their head every year as rumours. I'd stick around for the rest of the Black Guardian trilogy afterwards (Terminus and Enlightenment). The Five Doctors. Like it or loathe it, this is real comfort-Who for me. One of the stories I'm most likely to put on if I don't know what to watch. LOTS of Time Lord history.

Much as I like Colin Baker, there's not much fits your brief and I can't with good conscience recommend you watch all of Trial of a Time Lord. And much as I dislike McCoy there's nothing there in your brief except EVERYTHING after Dragonfire (i.e. when Ace starts and The Cartmel Masterplan kicks into overdrive). Start with Remembrance of the Daleks and see how you get on.

I've missed out some absolute classic material to tailor to what you wanted to see (history etc).

key ep's of essential previous docs

This is definitely tricky - when I first went back to them, I started out with the first and last story from each regeneration but that's still quite a mission. If I was going to try to pick one story for each doctor with the aim of covering major recurring baddies I guess I'd go for something like:

Hartnell - The Dalek Invasion of Earth

Troughton - Tomb of the Cybermen

Pertwee - The Sea Devils (you get the master in here too)

Baker T - Genesis of the Daleks AND The Deadly Assassin (he was around a long time, he deserves two stories)

Davison - This is the hardest to choose! Maybe Earthshock, Or Mawdryn Undead? Or even The Five Doctors.

Baker C - This'll do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT4ztbVlimU

McCoy - Remembrance of the Daleks, I guess.

It's hard to make this less dalek-heavy.

(ha, xp!)

Funnily enough I watched The 5 Doctors the other night, and while it was decent fun once it got going, I'd hardly say it was uber-classic. Real shame Tom Baker got "stuck in the time vortex" (ie, he wasn't available, so they used some unused footage for his introductory scenes) and didn't get to chew the scenery alongside the other Doctors. The companions were underused too. I did enjoy the mathematical puzzle booby trap they had to get past though. It's something that's in Pyramid of Mars too, which is an absolute corker, although it doesn't really add anything to the overall mythos.
For McCoy, it's gotta be Curse of Fenric. I've yet to see the recut version, but I think it's terrific, and gives a sense of the Doctor's darker, more ruthless side that Moffat is starting to explore.
City of Death, absolutely. Co-written by Douglas Adams under a pseudonym.

This was pretty confusing but I liked the twist at the end. I'd guess that Amy was taken at some point in the very first ep of the season but no idea why. The Doctor wasn't killing a sentient being, it was the real Amy in a different body, an avatar as explained upthread.

Being pregnant in a tube with a creepy eyepatch lady with weird lipstick – the idea of it creeps me the fuck out!

yeah that was up there with this show's darkest shit

BBC radio4 extra is running old who as radio plays at the moment and it works pretty well. However we are going through a period with Tegan who has to be one of the Doctor's whinier assitants

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b011d8b8

They're not old episodes, they're Big Finish productions - they're made as audio plays, but they're mostly (these days) made with the original casts.

eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cradle_of_the_Snake

Just w/r/t when Amy gets taken, I wouldn't be surprised to find that a later episode is the one that belongs between 1 & 2, as none of the elements of suspense at the end of 1 were resolved at the beginning of 2.

there have been so many throwaway clues. rory remembering being an auton in another universe: "memories are like a door..."

i know the Doctors switched shoes but it had to have been when they both were fiddling about with the consoles in the evac tower right?

So right after real (but pretending to be fake) doctor goes berserk at Amy...

RealDoc: "Did you sense it?"
GangerDoc: "Briefly but not as strongly as you."

^^I'm assuming they're both referring to Amy's real memories, and not the Flesh, in which case, why would Real Doctor feel it strongly? shouldn't it be the other way round because Ganger Doc was the one with the psychic link to Ganger Amy right? confusing but nvm.

I like how the "Why?"s could be referring to not just to the Flesh asking why they were destroyed but to the question of why Amy was taken, why the baby, and so many other whys. Jesus this show.

Naturally, I disagree that the 'Classic' series (as the BBC now calls it) takes more time to grasp what's going on thatn the modern series

except that your list of "~10 episodes" comes out to SIXTY EPISODES and a recommendation to watch another TWENTY-FOUR consecutive eps afterwards!

B-b-but they're only 24 minutes each! That's not bad for 40 years.

Speaking as a Who noob, I think that The War Games is great just for the last episode, with all its expressionist set designs and overall WEIRD vibe. But yeah, the overall length does make the preceding NINE episodes seem kind of inessential.

The Three Doctors is very heavy on Time Lord history but is maybe a bit slow for new viewers.

LOVED The Three Doctors! Easily my favorite of the classic era that I've seen, not slow at all (esp. compared to a whole bunch of the erst).

Genesis of the Daleks is grim as hell. As an aside, pre-knowledge of Time Lord history doesn't seem that important to understand the current series, does it? There are nice in-jokes to be gotten, I suppose, but maybe I'm just missing everything because I don't know? SPOILER HEREIN: E.g. when Davros shows up in the new era, I don't think I needed to know the ins and outs of the whole Kaled backstory to get the animus between him and the Doctor, it's fairly straightforward antagonist stuff. END SPOILER.

I think I'm the only one here or in the world who doesn't like City of Death.

Oh and I thought that the Jen-monster looked a lot like the invisible monster in the Van Gogh episode.

Incidentally, should I watch Spearhead from Space before I watch Planet of the Spiders?

Yes.

My suggestions:

1st - the first episode of the first serial (avoid the rest of it); The Daleks, but I'm not that familiar with a lot of 1st doc
2nd - The Mind Robber, totally tripped-out fun in the Land of Fiction; War Games, I guess?
3rd - The Daemons has the classic Master, UNIT shenanigans, lots of fun; Invasion of the Dinosaurs, if you don't mind some really terrible dinosaurs, is surprisingly complicated and has Sarah Jane
4th - Deadly Assassin is great for both entertainment and mythology creation; Warriors Gate is about as experimental as the show ever got, and it's fantastic; Robots of Death is kind of my go-to for introducing people to the show, though in a way it might be too good.
5th - I actually haven't really seen any of the mythology ones, Kinda's pretty cool though, and The Caves of Androzani is great, but it's his last episode
6th - I dunno.
7th - lots of options, Remembrance of the Daleks has more mythology stuff, Curse of Fenric has great ambition and lots of manipulation