times like this i wish my future self could send letters to my past self
― max, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 05:58 (sixteen years ago) link
if they even HAVE letters in the future that is
i also wouldnt mind being a farmer
-- max, Tuesday, October 2, 2007 5:10 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link
yeah, me too :-/
― river wolf, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 06:47 (sixteen years ago) link
ps horseshoe why aren't we friends
― river wolf, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 06:48 (sixteen years ago) link
just to bring everybody down I am going to mention my grad advisor who was talking to me once about how crazy all these kids are who go and work straight on through eight to nine years, get their Ph.D in english literature, and then somehow think some small college in a nice town is going to have an opening with tenure possibilities ;_;
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 07:18 (sixteen years ago) link
because there is apparently a glut of that in this country
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 07:19 (sixteen years ago) link
yeah i mean i know that im entering a field that has 1-2 openings a year and as a white guy im not what most departments are looking for but i still really like it... plus im hoping/praying that in 10-12 years when im getting my doctor8 a lot of the tenured boomer profs will be retiring and leaving options open for me (also maybe since most of my grad skool peers will be female my being male might work for me?)
but god who the fuck knows. there arent really jobs anywhere for the shit that im good at (at least is my understanding), its just even worse in academia.
― max, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 07:37 (sixteen years ago) link
pros: - i like my topic ("violence in the thought of nietzsche and hobbes") & my advisor a lot
http://www.deepsprings.edu/
― Curt1s Stephens, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 07:40 (sixteen years ago) link
max, are you a phil. undergrad?
xpost deep springs rears its head agane
― John Justen, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 07:43 (sixteen years ago) link
also, where?
english & comp lit, at 0ccidental college in LA
― max, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 07:44 (sixteen years ago) link
oh ok, i was going to let you know that phil. grad school is basically gagging for grad students if you're willing to TA, but that isn't quite as true for the lit side of things.
― John Justen, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 07:46 (sixteen years ago) link
yeah id most likely being for a lit degree but i havent necessarily ruled out philosophy or maybe a program like history of consciousness @ ucsc or rhetoric @ berkeley
― max, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 07:49 (sixteen years ago) link
being = be going
― max, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 07:50 (sixteen years ago) link
that or buying a farm in the dominican and playing dominoes
let's be friends, rw!
Tombot's grad advisor otm. ;_;
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 12:20 (sixteen years ago) link
have a keg party and pull a prank on the dean with some nerds.
― max r, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 12:24 (sixteen years ago) link
where is the job where i can read things i find really interesting and talk about them with fantastically smart people and maybe even write about them but i can do it all at my own pace with no pressure and no one ever judges my work?
it's called college, lol.
choose between the honors project and the radio station.
― gabbneb, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 14:16 (sixteen years ago) link
get a job
― DG, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 14:29 (sixteen years ago) link
Lots of great advice on this thread, I'll go through some of what was said. I think I might have some things to offer as I was in a similar situation and was thinking long and hard about the academic route. I studied philosophy (mostly continental/crit theory stuff as well as a lot of ethics, some logic, general history of phil.) and was very seriously considering doing a Phd. Actually, "was very seriously considering" = "ruling out pretty much all other options and thinking that I was definitely going to become a professor." I ultimately decided to take a few years off, thinking I would later apply to programs. I am beyond happy that I looked into other options. Most of my advice centers around "but, dude, think seriously about whether you want to apply to Ph.D. programs!"
Here goes: one thing to keep in mind is that when you're in college and you love school your only immediate role models are professors. but I have to believe there are other things you can do with your life where you learn and teach...or fields that reward you for thinking.
this is completely, completely OTM. So many smart undergrads who really excel in their majors (especially humanities students) look to the first immediate lifestyle in sight -- their professors, and just think "oh that's what I'll do" without really understanding a.)that there are loads of other options that aren't immediately visible but offer the same intellectual engagement with a lot less of the hassle and b.)that a Phd-->tenured professor dream is a hellish, hellish, hellish process that is extraordinarily difficult to achieve for most humanities students. Some students hear this, but then think "oh, I'll definitely be the lucky one, the student who gets a tenure position, I'm the smartest, most motivated, etc." But every Phd hopeful thinks they will be the lucky one, and the majority of them will not be.
the stuff im really passionate about is the sort of crit-theory/contintental philosophy stuff
This is an awesome field and there is some really engaging stuff in it, but unfortunately the job market is utter crap for this kind of stuff.
OTM. Nobody likes a downer, but unfortunately there aren't enough downers giving advice on students who are hoping to be academics. Most of my undergrad professors built up my self-confidence, and I thought "yea I got mostly As and good remarks from my profs" and my academic self-confidence was big and bloated, but none of them really gave me a realistic perspective on graduate study. Looking into it made me realize that I'd get my ass kicked in academia and I'd be miserable to boot.
a lot of the tenured boomer profs will be retiring and leaving options open for me
This might be true, but fewer and fewer of the retiring tenured profs are being replaced with other tenured positions. Adjuncts and other part-time crap jobs with lousy pay and no benefits are replacing the tenured professor who had his/her awesome job for 35 years.
Ultimately, you are wise for not wanting to go straight to grad school. Unless one is a complete crit theory diehard (or any other subject) who reads this stuff constantly even when his/her classes don't require it, he/she would probably benefit from taking some time off. Even that person might benefit. If you find you truly can't live without reading/discussing/researching/ Foucault, et al., then you can always go back to school. I took some time off and haven't read a work of philosophy since graduation, and it feels effin' great. I've had so much more time to find out what really, really interests me and I often think how miserable I would be if I was in a grad program right now.
As for the honors project -- I'd say go ahead and do it! (whether or not you plan to apply for Phd programs.) Things like that can be a blast, even if they are a lot of work. You'd probably be happy you did it in the end. It gives you a decent sense of what long-term, intensive research entails, which is precisely what grad school/academic life is. The only caveat is the one you mentioned about your advisor -- projects like that definitely benefit from frequent meetings with an advisor and if they aren't really there most of the time, it might be difficult. See if there is anyone else you could meet with.
One last point -- to all those who actually did go ahead and do a Phd -- I can be very forthright in all the reasons why one shouldn't do it, but ultimately I think it's a pretty awesome path and have a ton of respect for you. It's such a fantastic way to make a living, if you're motivated enough, and that's great. Damn I went on too long, didn't I?
― Mark Clemente, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 15:17 (sixteen years ago) link
i really wish deep springs had grad school
― river wolf, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 17:09 (sixteen years ago) link
thx for the extended reply, mark. i think a major problem is that as true as this: a.)that there are loads of other options that aren't immediately visible but offer the same intellectual engagement with a lot less of the hassle might be, those "other options" are very much not visible, and i dont really know how to go about looking for them. im more than open to other options (in fact, id really like to something i love as much as this without the impossible job market & 7 years of school), its just hard to figure out that they are.
but this isnt a thread about my creeping feeling of dread, its about my honors project.
― max, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 17:41 (sixteen years ago) link
I'm glad I'm doing a PhD, but I really wish someone had told me/I had figured out just how shitty and unsatisfying it would be a lot of the time.
― caek, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 17:46 (sixteen years ago) link
in case anyone's wondering i still havent finished my 6-page paper on women in mathematics.
― max, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 17:57 (sixteen years ago) link
hahha nice. yea max i do wish i had more advice on your honors project. sorry to go off on the big tangent!
― Mark Clemente, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 18:02 (sixteen years ago) link
no worries mark, its all the same question anyway basically
― max, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 18:05 (sixteen years ago) link
hi dere I am in this boat!
AFAIK doing these kinds of paper are really good because they are a great great great example of "research ability" which grad schools really look for. But I am doing one too and yeah it sucks a dick. Not doing PhD route tho, just grad school.
In terms of laziness/procrastination/anxiety, I just kind of constantly push myself to do things, make lots of schedules and planners, blah blah. I have to break everything down or I can't function. To narrow my topic and get an idea how to structure a paper like this, I went down to my college main office and asked to see the papers from previous years. They had a whole room of like all of them ever, and you could flip through and find stuff from yr major and look at how they wrote it and everything. Maybe yours does too! My advisor also advised me to break it down into smaller papers, which is a BIG HELP in terms of not feeling totally overwhelmed and terrified.
― jessie monster, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 18:07 (sixteen years ago) link
sorry I know my posts read like gibberish but I am revising a grad school essay and doing reading for my insane IR classes at the same time.
― jessie monster, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 18:08 (sixteen years ago) link
i think i also need someone to say "MAX stop posting to ILX you need to be working on your honors project"
― max, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 18:12 (sixteen years ago) link
to say that whenever i post, i mean
― max, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 18:13 (sixteen years ago) link
"where is the job where i can read things i find really interesting and talk about them with fantastically smart people and maybe even write about them but i can do it all at my own pace with no pressure and no one ever judges my work?"
You should pitch this to the Gawker Media Empire (TM). I hear they're always looking for a new blog-hook.
― milo z, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 18:16 (sixteen years ago) link
the Fleshbot crossover would be killer
This thread kind of makes me glad I never ended up applying to grad school back when I was seriously considering it. Especially horseshoe's comment about professors as role models and the romanticization of the academic lifestyle. I still wish my job was as social and engaging as teaching would be, but I can't say it's not intellectually stimulating.
― jaymc, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 18:28 (sixteen years ago) link
max, I have periodically had to swear off ILX to meet grad school deadlines. it helps me to be all absolutist about it and not look at it at all for like, a month. but I have been driven crazy by ph.d. school; such an extremist approach might not be necessary for you.
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 19:35 (sixteen years ago) link
(I am absolutist about it mostly for psychological reasons, not because I'm getting so much work done.)
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 19:36 (sixteen years ago) link
(also maybe since most of my grad skool peers will be female my being male might work for me?)
as long as you are down with feminist agendas!
― tehresa, Wednesday, 3 October 2007 02:00 (sixteen years ago) link
can i ask a lol grad school question here?
professor sez: write response paper on readings and last week's class every week (which i think is incredibly undergrad thing to do anyway but whatever). she said they were to be 'diary-like.' however, she gives criticizes/grades them based on her personal opinions/agendas and does not seem open to alternate ideas. how do i shot good grades without compromising my own ideas by towing her party line?
― tehresa, Wednesday, 3 October 2007 02:03 (sixteen years ago) link
wow, that does sound undergrad-ish. if that's the impression you get--that she's grading with an agenda--I would just write the kind of response she wants to read.
― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 3 October 2007 02:07 (sixteen years ago) link
ugh i was afraid of that. i just feel like since i only have 4 semesters of grad school i really don't want to have any 'throw-away' classes. i want them all to matter and spend the semester expanding my thoughts rather than analyzing the readings to predict what she would say about them.
― tehresa, Wednesday, 3 October 2007 02:10 (sixteen years ago) link
that sounds like some bullshit, tehresa. who grades diary-like responses?
― horseshoe, Wednesday, 3 October 2007 02:12 (sixteen years ago) link
i just feel like since i only have 4 semesters of grad school i really don't want to have any 'throw-away' classes.
Yeah, the thing is though, you may not want to have throw away classes, but lol you may have shitty, throw away teachers.
― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 3 October 2007 02:15 (sixteen years ago) link
thats not even undergrad shit, thats high school shit
― max, Wednesday, 3 October 2007 02:28 (sixteen years ago) link
hm that is weird, t. but i think by 'diary-like' at a grad school level she may mean more like 'critical response' but with a bit more personal gut reaction involved. i guess i'd just say that to do well, stay open, address what you know her agenda is but don't necessarily agree with it if you don't agree with it. i don't know, in the end, it's her class...
― rrrobyn, Wednesday, 3 October 2007 02:28 (sixteen years ago) link
yes horseshoe... response generaly = subjective and therefore not able to be graded under standard objective criteria, rite?!?!
i am debating bringing this up with my advisor. she may have some tips, but then again, i don't want to seem like a whiny 'wah grad skool is hard' biotch.
― tehresa, Wednesday, 3 October 2007 02:28 (sixteen years ago) link
how long does your project have to be, max? under 50 pages?
― rrrobyn, Wednesday, 3 October 2007 02:30 (sixteen years ago) link
okay, t, y'know i'm a bit jaded about school in all its forms these days, as much as i love education and knowledge and information and all that, but when they say 'response' and 'subjective' and 'your opinion' you have to forget what you thought they meant b/c what they mean now is more along the lines of critiquing with abilty to back up your ideas with references and reasons why
― rrrobyn, Wednesday, 3 October 2007 02:32 (sixteen years ago) link
heh, 35 pages... honestly this is a lot less "how can i possibly write this" and a lot more "how can i possibly write this to my absurdly high standards of perfection"
― max, Wednesday, 3 October 2007 02:33 (sixteen years ago) link
one of my professors pointed out this morning that im taking on way too much and my topic is way too big and im way to interested in writing something totally new and original instead of just putting my head down and learning how to research & write a long paper
― max, Wednesday, 3 October 2007 02:36 (sixteen years ago) link
otherwise you will be shot down she might still be a crappy prof, of course, but if you make a solid argument she has no reason to give you a bad mark xpost
max i wrote 35 pages in 7 days at the end of my first semester of grad school plus wrote a 15 page paper and a 25 pager during that same month. you can totally do it! tried and true: one page at a time, one sentence at a time, one quote at a time, etc etc
― rrrobyn, Wednesday, 3 October 2007 02:37 (sixteen years ago) link
^ i'm not bragging there or anything at all - research went into those papers that was done over several weeks before too but the compiling of it and the writing process wasn't so bad or long once i got going.
also it feels AWESOME when you're done
i just edited my entire thesis 80+ pages and sent it to prof yesterday. so i'm riding a high. plus i got a job today.
― rrrobyn, Wednesday, 3 October 2007 02:39 (sixteen years ago) link
Hoos, you go to TSU, right? Any clue how strict their transfer admissions are?
― milo z, Thursday, 17 April 2008 00:55 (sixteen years ago) link
congratz max :)
― Rubyredd, Thursday, 17 April 2008 01:02 (sixteen years ago) link
Pushing my graduation back two semesters will be worth it if it means I get to go to Wellington (from rural Minnesota) for a year, right?
― BigLurks, Thursday, 17 April 2008 04:20 (sixteen years ago) link
wellington, new zealand???
― Rubyredd, Thursday, 17 April 2008 04:35 (sixteen years ago) link
yep
― BigLurks, Thursday, 17 April 2008 04:36 (sixteen years ago) link
that's where i live!
― Rubyredd, Thursday, 17 April 2008 04:37 (sixteen years ago) link
well, for 2.5 more months. what are you going to be doing here?
Going to a different lol college. It'll push back my grad date 'cause I don't really need the credits badly; I just want to get as far away from here as I possibly can, and the study abroad thing seems like a convenient way to travel FAR. My girlfriend and two good pals are coming with, though they're all a bit unsure of what they'll be doing there (ha any recommendations?). We won't be there until January.
What do you do in Wellington? Do you like it?
― BigLurks, Thursday, 17 April 2008 04:44 (sixteen years ago) link
oh wellington is awesome! webmail off-board if you want to ask about anything.
― Rubyredd, Thursday, 17 April 2008 04:49 (sixteen years ago) link
*webmail ME off-board
wow, how did i miss the update? belated yaaaaaaaay max!
also, ENBB, i think you are in graduate school for something proper and useful, not lol english lit, so i totally believe that you are not insane.
― horseshoe, Saturday, 17 May 2008 15:07 (sixteen years ago) link
Hahaha. We'll see how useful it turns out to be. I did english lit/creative undergrad so maybe I'm 1/2 insane. ;-)
― ENBB, Saturday, 17 May 2008 15:31 (sixteen years ago) link
thanks horseshoe. i graduate tomorrow!
― max, Saturday, 17 May 2008 17:43 (sixteen years ago) link
CONGRATULATIONS, MAX!!!
― horseshoe, Sunday, 18 May 2008 08:15 (sixteen years ago) link
yaaay max! and congratulations on sticking with the thesis + comps option! :D
― rrrobyn, Sunday, 18 May 2008 13:49 (sixteen years ago) link
guys i just got a letter from college that apparently oops they fucked up and I NEED ONE MORE CLASS TO GRADUATE
fuck knows how half a dozen advising sessions and three degree audits official and otherwise could have missed this
but i kinda feel like this whole insane semester, which was structured as it was for the sake of getting me completely done by june (and thus getting $10,000 in loans forgiven), was completely for naught now.
argasdsfkwl jf jifjks j kijfkidjfdkijf/disfyu yu if hn ddfjn ;nusweic4ju9u4
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 18 May 2008 18:27 (sixteen years ago) link
>:(
― gbx, Sunday, 18 May 2008 19:22 (sixteen years ago) link
Aw Hoos want me to go clothesline some Texans for ya?
― Abbott, Sunday, 18 May 2008 19:23 (sixteen years ago) link
damn hoos that is nightmare territory
― max, Monday, 19 May 2008 01:47 (sixteen years ago) link
Can you tell this sentence to someone with any measure of power? I feel like if it was my decision, and I knew you had repeatedly visited advisors who didn't catch the "mistake", along with the degree audits, I'd use my executive powers to help you out. Then again, this is probably why I will never achieve any position of influence...
― Z S, Monday, 19 May 2008 02:50 (sixteen years ago) link
oh man, hoos :( so sorry!!!
― tehresa, Monday, 19 May 2008 03:09 (sixteen years ago) link
hoos, that sucks so bad dude :( surely someone will be sympathetic to your case...
because of my own fuckup in planning my degree, i was 2 points short at the end of my last semester (360pts for a degree) but there was no fucking way i was doing another semester so i wrote to the associate dean of my faculty and told him all the reasons i should get an exemption and he granted it within a couple of hours. but my situation was pretty minor. hopefully something similar will happen for you!
― Rubyredd, Monday, 19 May 2008 03:38 (sixteen years ago) link
Can you tell this sentence to someone with any measure of power?
I'm calling my Dean in the morning.
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 19 May 2008 05:59 (sixteen years ago) link
thx for the sympathies, guys.
also
CONGRATS MAX U GO HAVE A FUKKIN TASTYCAKE DAWG DEAD SERIOUS