Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

liked it a lot, though I wondered if the slightly odd feeling of adding a new best pal to amy/rory's past was deliberate--like, was this an actual new timeline being formed (and as reiterated by one little person, "time can be rewritten").

Torn between being really impressed and sort of bored by the whole fanwankery. Also, good move making it about Hitler for a whole 17 seconds, that didn't waste a massive opportunity or anything.

I think I'm just fatigued by what apparently is a 50th anniversary story arc going on WAAAAAAAAAY too long.

Didn't need half an hour of panto Hitler after panto Nixon and panto Churchill.

Moffatt's said that next year will be back to more self-contained eps, so I think you're ia-ing that one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=f9yKkwx1j1Y

Excellent choice of some shots there - Ian dancing from The Chase, Zoe on the exploded TARDIS from The Mind Robber, the cleaner from The Green Death, Tom's alium blow-job from Creature From The Pit, the poorest quality Sea Devil from Warriors Of The Deep, A Fix With The Sontarans...

Really don't agree with those who see Hitler being in it for a few minutes being a wasted opportunity. The Doctor can't stop Hitler or WWII so there's not much scope for a story there. We don't need a portentous episode about the horrors of Nazi Germany. Indeed, that could end up being in bad taste. Much better to have Rory punch Hitler out and River take the piss out of the Wehrmacht with her gay gypsy bar mitzvah gag. Mel Brooks would surely approve.
The episode was tremendously good fun and dealt with all the continuity stuff with wit and panache.

OTM. I thought using Hitler as an excuse for 5mins of throwaway comedy was great, and probably the only thing they could have done with him. You can't really get away with replacing Hitler with an alien or making him an accomplice.

Was about to shout 'fuck off' at the TV when River unleashed the Tardis energy on the dead Doctor, until I remembered that was still regeneration energy, so they just about got away with that one. Loved the robotic jellyfish antibody enforcers.

Those justice enforcers will be back though. They take war criminals at the end of their timeline, maybe the Doctor can cheat death by, erm, committing an atrocity and being grabbed at the last minute. Okay maybe not.

Nobody seems to have mentioned the Star Trek nod with the justice enforcers? Not just in the costumes, but the way it took the piss out of the Federation's sense of moral superiority.

the Doctor = Hitler, no? They hinted as much the quick flash to Gallifrey at the beginning and the unnecessary guilt trip bit in the Tardis.

*as much with

They're certainly building up the Doctor's god complex. Perhaps after Good Man he's been brought down to size a bit. Certainly seemed a bit more self-aware and regretful in this ep.

Enjoyed it a lot! Lots of funny lines, River's crack about wearing jodphurs etc. Bit silly but overall fun & interesting way to mess with the timeline, River, whatnot. Agree that I dont really know what it changes though

Is the fact that left to their own devices, Time Lords can age (cf. L'il Mels growing up into Big Mels), a new revelation?

Think that was just a 'change of persona' regeneration - not her getting older as such.

Not sure abut the episode. No, that's not right - the episode was fine, but continual relentless pace + massive revelations of this series I'm finding a bit wearing.

Also was the 'You still care' moment supposed to be the revelation that, even if momentarily, undid all her psychopathic programming. Good job Religious Order of Silence.

Insert question mark at end of the first sentence.

Think that was just a 'change of persona' regeneration - not her getting older as such.

I'm presuming that as Amy and Rory grew up, so did Amy's BFF Mels? No regeneration required?

PS I kept expecting that fish sticks and custard would be the antidote to River's lipstick poison.

No, Leee's point about aging is a good one - Little Mels is a toddler in 1969, takes 25 years (maybe 1994 when she meets Amelia?) to age 5 years or so, then ages at the same rate for the next 15? No mean feat.

At the same rate as Amy & Rory, I mean.

Ah yes, sorry, misunderstood the first time round.

I enjoyed it. Tiny people living inside a shape-shifting robot is a brilliantly barmy idea and they pulled it off well.

Moffatt's said that next year will be back to more self-contained eps

However, I am pleased about this. I'm all for threads running through a series, but Dr. Who's a show which you should be able to watch any story of out of context and be able to follow it. At the moment it must be as baffling to newbies as the last few Harry Potter books.

Just occurred to me: the tiny people thinking River was a bigger criminal than Hitler kind of implies that Moffatt thinks the Doctor is more important than six million human beings.

Though he does regularly save the universe, so maybe he is.

In more recent occurrences, Mel's aging could be driven by her human DNA, so the writers have an out there.

re: the harry potter thing every time i give this show a go it always seems more about itself than actual adventures in, y'know, all of time, space and several other entire universes

Yeah, my complaint exactly. Those kind of shenanigans are fine for a season, but they need to stop at some point so as not to completely alienate new viewers. It's not The Wire, it's a family adventure show.

And sure Moffatt's ambition is one of the things that makes him an appealing writer, but he needs to reign it in a bit.

Little Mels is a toddler in 1969, takes 25 years (maybe 1994 when she meets Amelia?) to age 5 years or so, then ages at the same rate for the next 15? No mean feat.

We don't know that the 1969 regeneration was into Mels, though, do we? She could have died/regenerated several times between 1969 and 1994

She said the last time it happened she turned into a toddler in New York.

Or was it Washington?

no, New York

idgi. i maybe understand 50% of this episode

maybe someone can explain it to me?

what dyg?

Which 50%? xpost

River is a time lord, Amy is a robot and Matt Smith is the 13th doctor xxp

Did River really "grow up" w/ Amy + Rory as this Mel persona from their childhood to adulthood? Why? Was she trying to get to the doctor through them?

a) yes she did
b) yes she was, due to her programming, but she also wanted to get to grow up with her parents, regardless of her programming

and "grow up" because she had already spent ...8 years? as Melody Pond, and probably 25-30 years as Mels before de-aging herself to Amy's age when she got to Leadworth.

(ie she regenerated into a toddler in 1969; Amy was born in 1989; Mels presumably didn’t befriend her until Amy was at school, because she wouldn’t have had a mother to negotiate their friendship.)

oh god

think a bit of a meal is being made out of this - we know time lords grow up otherwise the entire programme wd be about a group of time travelling infants. that's unless you want to embrace the idea they're formed as adults in the first place, which they aren't iir some master/doctor childhood episode from a while back.

continual relentless pace + massive revelations of this series I'm finding a bit wearing.

I concur. There's just too much shouting all the time, the stakes are always too high, it's all too hysterical. I got bored about halfway through and wished the Doctor would die, just to shut everyone up for five seconds.

I really liked the antibodies, especially the jerky way their tentacles moved. There was something very old-school about it.

The meal being made out of it is that either: she ages normally for 5 years then spends 20 at the same age and then starts aging again; she ages really slowly for 25 years then starts aging normally, or she ages normally for 25 years then wipes 20 years off her age then ages normally agin.

Mels ages at the same age as Amelia/Amy from when they start school to the present day i.e. 15 years. She was a toddler over 20 years before Amelia. Something isn't right about that and it has nothing to do with Timelords not growing up.

think a bit of a meal is being made out of this - we know time lords grow up otherwise the entire programme wd be about a group of time travelling infants. that's unless you want to embrace the idea they're formed as adults in the first place, which they aren't iir some master/doctor childhood episode from a while back.

Exactly, and see also Susan, who was ageing into adulthood at a normalish human rate. Very deliberately excluded from this discussion is whatever nonsense the spin-off books probably had to say about Time Lords and their childhoods.

Also, it's always been fairly apparent that most Time Lords are able to finely adjust their looks, when regenerating at least, and possibly at other times--see the Master, Romana, etc--whereas the Doctor has always been a spectacularly bad regenerator, often being knocked out of action and being very confused for some time afterwards.

But they've fairly explicitly said she isn't a Time Lord she's a "child of the TARDIS", whatever that is, so comapring her to The Master or Romana doesn't work. All we know about Susan is for the few months she's at Coal Hill school she appears to age at the same rate of the other children there, which isn't very much. The only other reference we have is that she ages at the same rate as other Time Lords as seen in The Five Doctors.

Melody/River is spectacularly bad at whatever it is she does with TARDIS energy (not regenerating, it's more like what happened to Jenny in The Doctor's Daughter), turning into a toddler in a big city is shockingly inappropriate.

Mels ages at the same age as Amelia/Amy from when they start school to the present day i.e. 15 years. She was a toddler over 20 years before Amelia. Something isn't right about that and it has nothing to do with Timelords not growing up.

There's room to do plenty more with this if they really want, but Moffatt's covered it just as much as he needs to by having River note that she's able to control her appearance. I don't see a problem since he made a point of addressing it in the episode.

But she can only do that because she's still 'regenerating', also from the dialogue.