Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

Still wondering why they don't give a shit about their kidnapped baby.

Maybe they've made a boibee
http://www-movieline-com.vimg.net/images/lost_squirrel_225a.jpg

hahaha

Although I am also pissed of that they don't look sad or talk about their missing child at all, I suppose this last episode did sort of deal with the issue - surely if they rescue their kidnapped baby then they will kill the River Song that they know? Mind you, what with her annoying tendency to not say anything because of "spoilers!" (die die die) then maybe they did rescue here in the original timeline? They'd had to have lost her again at some point, though, for her to become the previously unmentioned best friend.

*rescue HER

yeah i really started to wonder as i watched this episode about when amy and rory are just going to jump ship on the doctor

I started to wonder when they were going to try to kill the Doctor. Wouldn't be surprised if it was one of them in the space suit in the first episode.

Or all of them: maybe the first-ep space suit is a TARDIS. Murder on the Orient TARDIS. Except from inside it not on it.

yr pal, Hercule$ Poirot

I mean, maybe I just have a more hairtrigger temper than either Rory or Amy, but between being responsible for them losing their baby and the fuckery the Doctor pulled in this episode I would have at least tried throwing him out of the tardis by now.

Rory has had plenty of time to learn patience.

Rory has had plenty of time to learn patience.

Indeed - I was disappointed he didn't pull his 2000 year trump card when Amy moaned about waiting a pitiful 36 years for him.

maybe the space suit is a ship full of people like in 'let's kill hitler'

or just controlled by an angry amy and rory and river

Indeed - I was disappointed he didn't pull his 2000 year trump card when Amy moaned about waiting a pitiful 36 years for him.

as has probably been said a dozen times upthread, he chose to wait 2000 years in an unaging, untiring body to see her again. she thought she had been abandoned forever and spent almost double her lifespan so far, including her prime years, fighting every day to get older, tireder and lonelier.

he chose to wait 2000 years in an unaging, untiring body to see her again

Still not exactly easy, is it? Pretty sure 2000 years on your own makes you lonelier than 36. He's also died 143 times for her so he could maybe expect a little bit of leeway on the whole 36 year fuck-up thing that wasn't in any way his fault?

Anyway, who pushes a red button ffs?

He wasn't even on his own, though. He sought gainful employment by the end there and who knows how many other people he got to talk to in his painless unageing plastic body while he waited, knowing there was a set, fruitful endpoint to his waiting.

Also, who doesn't tell someone which button to push? Can't take Rory-stanning seriously tbh. He's such a vile wretch.

Also, who doesn't tell someone which button to push?

The kind of person who'd go out with someone who doesn't reply "there are two buttons, which one?" I guess

Or the kind of person who goes straight for the red button instead of the green one.

He's such a vile wretch.

No way, I'm a big Rory fan these days.

Some people are into vile wretches I guess.

haha I can't see Rory as vile no matter how hard I try

"hapless" otoh...

Maybe I've missed part of the discussion, but how is Rory a "vile wretch"? Not liking him is fine, but that's such a strong term it makes me think he's doing something truly awful that I can't remember.

Yeah, does "vile wretch" mean "sometimes a bit wimpy" now?

He's really gross about Amy. Possessive and paternalistic and disrespectful and condescending. I have a kneejerk reaction to him doing things like literally physically shoving Amy out of the way so he can tell someone not to look at her legs and all that "permission to hug" crap. And he's just always so sour and angry-sounding about everything, often without cause. And actually the whole guarding the Pandorica for 2000 years thing really rubs me the wrong way because it's hard not to see that ultimately as a gesture to secure Amy's love for all time or to at least guilt her into thinking she owed her love to him. Which I admit is not necessarily the subtext on the show, but is definitely something that a lot of Rory stans claim is true (that Amy owes him her love and that she doesn't deserve it).

That and when people try to claim that Amy is terrible for being bitter and hardened after 36 years without human contact or any guarantee of rescue just because Rory waited longer (in a totally different and voluntary situation) just makes me hate Rory all the more.

Also, the fact that he's not even on the TARDIS because he wants to be or because he enjoys it but because he feels that he needs to guard/protect Amy's vagina.

I think maybe you are still looking at their relationship as unchanged from the first half of season 5 rather than what it is now

The permission to hug stuff is all from series 6! And shoving her out of the way so someone can't comment on her legs is from the Christmas special. Like it seems like he's just on the TARDIS to police the exact length and frequency of her hugs and such. Because he certainly doesn't seem to want to be there for any other reason.

My main problem with her being bitter and hardened is that it was HER OWN DAMN FAULT. Her then turning around and saying she hated the doctor because he hadn't managed to rescue her until that time just smacks of the worst kind of entitlement.

I often quite like her character, though, so I think that sort of thing is mostly the fault of the writers failing to create something coherent in the series. I almost always like Rory, mind you. Not sure how he is paternalistic when he's clearly always been the weakest one in the relationship. Perhaps in the sense of ineffectually attempting to attain some sort of imagined manliness that he feels he should live up to instead of just accepting he's the ever-faithful, ever-falling behind Mr Pond? Completely sure of why he's possessive when his wife tries to shag and run off with someone else the night before they're getting married. But as Dan says, their relationship has gone through a fair amount since then, and neither of those things is totally applicable any more.

Couldn't remember the whole 'permission to hug' bit but found this blog post on it: http://natreides.tumblr.com/post/9713633997/the-doctor-rory-amy-permission-to-hug-thing

I think he's just wildly insecure, as it has been established many times who has (and has always had) the power in that relationship. I don't know why you'd read his guarding the Pandoricum for 2,000 year as some sort of devious controlling plot to ensure her submission. Well, I guess I know why, it just seems really silly to me.

The aspect about wanting to protect Amy can, I guess, seem creepy and possessive but honestly, it feels to me more like a fairly sensible reaction to the extraordinary amounts of danger the Doctor puts Amy in from week to week. If your significant other was running off to dangerous, often-universe threatening adventures, would you rather just stay home and hope it works out alright or would you like to be there? I can imagine just waiting around for the Doctor to turn up and say "yeah, Amy's dead, soz bruv" would be pretty awful.

Fans are annoying though. I can't really listen to the Smiths anymore because of so many years being around their fans, but I also know that's not the Smiths fault.

My main problem with her being bitter and hardened is that it was HER OWN DAMN FAULT. Her then turning around and saying she hated the doctor because he hadn't managed to rescue her until that time just smacks of the worst kind of entitlement.

I dunno, I think I'd be pretty understanding of someone who is pissed off that they've been left to grow old alone.

The flipside of this is obviously her nightmare visions in The Doctor's Wife, where Rory goes nuts about how much he hates Amy for leaving him behind.

Having reasons for possessiveness doesn't actually justify the behavior, nor is paternalism justified just because he seems to have less power in the relationship (and given that she doesn't even comment on his behavior and happily accepts it, I'd argue that's not even true). Like Rory has a choice. He doesn't have to be with Amy if her indiscretion bothered him that much. The choice of "stay with her but watch her vag like a hawk and treat her like a prized possession" is a shitty one that makes him a shitty person.

Also, I don't get how Amy's attitude was "entitled". She didn't wait a year, she waited decades upon decades in which she had a lot of time to grow bitter and twisted. She spent 36 years at war for her survival. It doesn't matter if it's her "own damn fault" (and it's a pretty heavy and unexpected punishment for pressing a button without thinking about it). x-posts

Wow, that is exactly not how I see any of their relationship. And "watched her vag like a hawk...?" is absurd.

By the way, I'm not dismissing the fact that he is insecure and she is bossy – but that seems kind of 'real,' maybe?

I don't know why you'd read his guarding the Pandoricum for 2,000 year as some sort of devious controlling plot to ensure her submission.

It's just hard not to see it that way given all his other Nice Guy tendencies.

But all the stuff about policing who can touch or look at her body isn't subtext, it's text. And it's gross as hell.

You're getting pretty close to reading any nice gesture anyone ever does as chock full of insidious desires. I think it's hard to come to that conclusion.

Rory is an insecure dude, but I don't think it's insane policing. She kind of lolz at it really.

Just because Amy doesn't have a problem with it doesn't mean I don't. Amy's a fictional character, she reflects the general view of the male writers that that kind of shit is okay and cute.

nor is paternalism justified just because he seems to have less power in the relationship

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that it isn't paternalism at all but rather, as everyone else has said, insecurity. Which is not a gendered phenomenon, though can result in attempts to conform to one's stereotyped gender, if lack of that is one of the charges often levelled against you.

The choice of "stay with her but watch her vag like a hawk and treat her like a prized possession" is a shitty one that makes him a shitty person.

Well, it would do if that was even close to how the character was portrayed.

all the stuff about policing who can touch or look at her body isn't subtext, it's text.

Um, where? You've given two examples, one of which I think is dealt with correctly in the blog post I linked up to. The other - trying to stop someone from looking at his partner's legs - seems again to be non-gendered: I would also try to stop someone from perving at my partner. Sorry if that makes me a wildly abusive, controlling asshole.

Beth Willis? Julie Gardener? Caroline Skinner?

turn around Remy, or this is going to be Mad Men all over again

(jokes, obv. <3 Melissa)

Matthew Weiner is calling from inside the writer's room.

It's called Dr Who, not Happy Ladies.

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that it isn't paternalism at all but rather, as everyone else has said, insecurity.

Don't see how one precludes the other.

Um, where? You've given two examples, one of which I think is dealt with correctly in the blog post I linked up to. The other - trying to stop someone from looking at his partner's legs - seems again to be non-gendered: I would also try to stop someone from perving at my partner. Sorry if that makes me a wildly abusive, controlling asshole.

Two examples is enough. Though there were two examples of "permission to hug", one in which he actually cut off the hug. And thanks for the loaded second statement. I do think it's abusive and controlling to physically shove someone out of the way to get someone to stop someone commenting upon or noticing their body before they've even had a chance to react to it themselves or decide how they want it to be dealt with, if the attention is unwanted. As for "when did you stop beating your wife" second half, I'll refrain from answering.

And I should probably bow out before this does turn into the Mad Men thread again. x-posts

It's called Doctor Who, not The Nurse Rory's Insecurities Variety Hour.

Don't see how one precludes the other.

understandable human emotions

I kind of want "watch her vag like a hawk" as a dn now.

^

I mean I do not see how you can not see that Amy is the semi-abusive controlling one in the relationship. She ran away with a strange man the night before her wedding; she's pushed/whacked/shoved more people than Rory by a country mile.

But, you know, she could abuse me.

Understandable human emotions lead to all varieties of reprehensible shit. Insecurity being pretty high on the list there. x-post

Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. I don't even know what to say to the idea that Amy is abusive tbh. Who has she hit that wasn't a direct threat to her?

Understandable human emotions lead to all varieties of reprehensible shit. Insecurity being pretty high on the list there. x-post

no doubt, but 1.) i think you're really exaggerating Rory's behaviour and 2.) the show has gone to pretty great lengths to allow us to understand why Rory acts the way he does, the basis of which isn't that he's an intrinsically shitty person because most of his actions are pretty understandable [unless, I guess, you exaggerate his behaviour)

I understand where you're coming from though.