Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

WAHT

WRONG

I must warn you I can and will leap through your computer screen

Haha!

Amy & Rory in Closing Time are a few years later than the end of The God Complex. In The God Complex they are a few months older than in The Impossible Astronaut.

The Doctor has a blue box that can travel in time - I agree it is unfair of the show to have sprung this twist on you so late in the picture.

Also, Matt Smith is one of the three best Doctors ever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solway_Firth_Spaceman

Agreed. Smith is fantastic.
Ok, so that clears up the timeline.
The prequel is really creepy and fun. Suggests that the Silence aren't aliens at all? Plus THAT text on the pyramid adds a further element to their play on the whole Roswell mythology.
More Mortiis lookalike Viking guy and chess... I'm starting to think those rumours have something to them. Would make sense too. I won't spoiler it though. Go and google it if you want to know more.

Ooh, that Solway Firth thing is interesting. Adds to the season's play on alien hoaxes/sightings. In fact it's all humans - perhaps working for some ancient evil force - engineering it all.

Awww, I thought that one was quite sweet really. I actually quite liked how the Doctor undercut the mawkishness with science and then decided he couldn't be arsed.

I think Smith is very good indeed, he can do both comedy and gravitas better than Tennant, and I like how this Doctor's basic selfishness and, ahem, lack of emotional intelligence contrast with Tennant's more touchy-feely Doctor.

The Amy & Rory cameo was rub though.

There are at least 4-6 Doctors I'd rank above Tennant.

And I really quite like Eleven/Matt Smith despite my antipathy towards series 6.

Lot of confusion out there regarding River. Seems fairly straightforward... River is captured again and brainwashed into killing the Doctor. Then they put her in Stormcage, which is seemingly run by the same army types Kovarian is in charge of. Presumably they wipe the exact details of who she killed. Or maybe she does. Argh timey-wimey.
Eyepatch would seem to be a device for remembering the Silence and also mind control?

Also, I don't think we're dealing with two Doctors, or specifically a ganger Doctor. That's surely a misdirect and too easy.

So the Rory and Amy that we see know all the events of the series because they've already lived through it. They do a pretty good job of kidding on, especially on the whole River/baby thing which it must now turn out never was a surprise to them.

I liked this as a fun knockabout thing, but three basic problems stick out.

1) 19th April was a Tuesday, which means Sophie can't have gone away for the weekend.

2) the events of this are only 8 months after The Lodger (which is during summer 2010) which isn't long enough to have a baby that age.

3) going away for the weekend is a bit frivolous considering this is at the height of The Miracle and the Not Dead have thrown the world into crisis (see also why you then shouldn't be scared of a cybermat eating you).

I don't know, the Doctor says he's dying 'tomorrow' but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is the same tomorrow that horrible fuckface Corden is going to experience, right? So Corden could be further along in time?

Also, are Torchwood events canon in the Who universe? I figured Who events would be for Torchwood but not necessarily the other way round.

It's tomorrow when he holds up a paper which proves it is, yes.

I couldn't care less about Torchwood: Miracle of the Giant Earth Vaginas but the BBC commissioned both and Jack Harkness referred to The Doctor during the latest series so they have to be in the same Universe.

It's tomorrow when he holds up a paper which proves it is, yes.

Okay, I didn't spot this. Fair enough, this is stupid.

I'd assume that Rusty doesn't even bother to check these things with Moffatt, or he can't because one is writing ahead of the other, but then that's his fault really. You can't expect Moffatt to be required to write around what's happening in a less popular and less important spin-off.

xpost The Doctor has the big blue box that travels through space and time. Amy and Rory, at the point this episode takes place, do not. Therefore their travel arrangements are a matter of legitimate concern.

It must have said it was Colchester somewhere. Because I didn't know The Lodger took place in Colchester, so there was no reason for me to make a link back. And I'm not in the habit of using Colchester as a default location for what have you.

I think the paper was the Colchester Times or something.

The Doctor has the big blue box that travels through space and time. Amy and Rory, at the point this episode takes place, do not. Therefore their travel arrangements are a matter of legitimate concern

You do not need a tardis to get from London to Colchester. You can get a train. Or you can drive there in Rory's new misogynist car.

lol

I am watching the Horror of Fang Rock before bed. It's one of my favourites and arguably top 5 ever. NuWho will never get this good.

So the Rory and Amy that we see know all the events of the series because they've already lived through it. They do a pretty good job of kidding on, especially on the whole River/baby thing which it must now turn out never was a surprise to them.

how is signing an autograph for a small child kidding on that they don't know some stuff that happened to them a year or three ago?

What, they don't remember they've had a baby? Or that the kid was stolen? Or that their mate turned out to be their other grwn up mate? Or their grown up mate turned out to be their daughter? Family events must be for shits and giggles round your place.

If this happens after The God Complex then the A&R we see here know all of this series and ergo the above. So it has to happen before, in which case why did Amy never mention being a superstar model during the entire series?

The newspaper the Doctor holds up in the episode (the one that refernences someone form Britain's Got Talent) clearly states the date of it is 19th April 2011. That fairly firmly dates the episode.

idgi. how does signing the autograph prove that they don't remember the events of the series? they've gone on with their lives since being dropped off by the Doctor a year or three ago, Amy's had a job as a model (or curator of a perfume line, given the name of the perfume), Rory's had to adapt to being second fiddle in a new way, etc

xp where is the date shown in The Lodger?

Didn't Amy look straight at the Doctor but fail to recognise him? (I'm unwilling to trust my own judgement here since I was so INCREDIBLY bored that I may have been dozing at that point)

I don't think she did, no.

no, he starts to step out of their line of sight as they approach, but then the little moppet runs up for an autograph and Amy only looks at the kid

Just watched it a bit drunk, and didn't entirely understand it - not sure if this is the alcohol's fault or the writer's. But I enjoyed it well enough, it was funny and Cybermen are personally my favourite of the big Who villains. Cybermat with teeth was kind of daft though.

Quibble: wasn't the Doctor's death in Utah supposed to have happened/will happen 200 years in to his personal future? Has he had a couple of hundred years of adventures since ditching Amy and Rory?

I agree with aldo except that it's not just a question of Amy and Rory knowing about what's going to happen in advance, if that's them after the events of the series so far and about to go through the events of The Impossible Astronaut then they're stuck in some kind of time loop.

http://www.ranger-retrocenter.com/misc/thedate1.png

OK? So the date of this episode is set.

From The Doctor's point of view, he could easily have had 200 years of adventures between The Impossible Astronaut and now. Big Blue Box etc.

From Amy & Rory's POV, this is the day they need to get on a plane for Utah and the events of The Impossible Astronaut. So, if this is after The God Complex for them then the events of the series have all happened (as in fact they must have even if The Doctor picked them up after the end of The God Complex again and whizzed them about to various other places and dropped them back in Colchester in April). So, when The Impossible Astronaut takes place, Amy already knows River is her daughter and all the other stuff because she's already found out in the future.

Has he had a couple of hundred years of adventures since ditching Amy and Rory?

yep. this is covered in dialogue.

if that's them after the events of the series so far and about to go through the events of The Impossible Astronaut then they're stuck in some kind of time loop.

it's not both though. it's either well after the events of the series, or poooossibly before and they never mentioned Amy's perfumery career happening in the gap between the Christmas Carol and the Impossible Astronaut. and the chances of it being the latter are miniscule, given the name of the perfume.

yep. this is covered in dialogue.

although, er, it might be in ǝposıdǝ ʇxǝu ǝɥʇ.

Hmmmmmm at aldo's xpost - newspaper prop could be an art dept fuckup like Rory's nametag in Eleventh Hour tho?

Do we definitely know what date amy and rory met up with the doctor in Utah? I'm just not really seeing a problem here, tomorrow for the doctor doesn't have to mean tomorrow for amy/rory/anyone else. In fact it seems to me that tomorrow for the doctor means "months ago, before any of this series happened" for amy/rory.

Also we don't know for sure what date he dropped them off at the end of the god complex. That could also have been a few years ago for all we know, giving amy time to become a model by april 2011.

And I really don't see why the amy/rory we see in the shopping centre should need to go to utah at all? That's the amy/rory who have already done all that stuff.

Yes, Utah takes place on 22 April 2011. It keeps getting shown on the TARDIS screens as the death date of The Doctor.

The Amy & Rory from the shopping centre on 21 April need to be in Utah on 22 April because that's where we already know they are - unless you're suggesting there's more than one Amy & Rory.

Well yeah, I think there are two Amy/Rorys. The pair in Colchester, who are having their happy ever after, some time after they got dropped off at the end of the god complex. And the pair who are about to go (or have already gone) to meet the doc in Utah, the same pair we saw at the start of the series.

It's the same Amy and Rory at a different point in their lives, isn't it? They can be at two different places on the plant at the same moment in (actual) time, at different points on their timeline, can't they? Don't I remember them waving to themselves across a valley in that one with the Silurians? (I hesitate to post this because Aldo knows so many million times more about the Who universe than I do. But whatevs.)

They know the Doctor is going to die in TWO HUNDRED YEARS of his own personal timeline. Amy and Rory are going to die in about 60. I can see why they wouldn't be 100% panicked about it.

xp And the policeman in "Blink", he overlapped with himself for sure: "it's the same rain".

Do we definitely know what date amy and rory met up with the doctor in Utah? I'm just not really seeing a problem here, tomorrow for the doctor doesn't have to mean tomorrow for amy/rory/anyone else. In fact it seems to me that tomorrow for the doctor means "months ago, before any of this series happened" for amy/rory.

This is obviously the case. I mean, really obviously.

So yeah, there are two Amy and Rorys wandering around, as there will have been at several other points in their travels. When we see them in the department store it's further ahead in their personal timeline then we've ever seen them before. They don't need to go to Utah for the Impossible Astronaut because they've already done that.

Doesn't mean they definitely won't go to Utah and get stuck in, of course. Wouldn't be surprised if that was part of the Doctor's plan in dropping them off early.

kill me

I think people (including me) are getting a bit confused about Amy + Rory's timeline because

a) at one point the Doctor was totally against risking anyone crossing their own timeline, which admittedly seems to have gone out of the window now, and

b) if the Doctor thinks he has dropped off his companions to have nice normal Earth lives then he is being a bit dotty (ok, not out of character) if he's left two copies of them running around at the same time, I mean what is Amy's mum to think when Amy rings talking about her new house and car in London and an hour later she rings again saying "sorry I haven't called for a week, would you like to come for tea at my flat in the duckpond village", etc

Also we know this is a later Amy and Rory because we've never heard anything about Amy being famous before.

Amy and Rory in Utah ...

If the Amy and Rory in the department store were an Amy and Rory who postdate the Doctor's death, you'd think they'd be a little bit fucking sadder, knowing the Dcotor was going to die the next day. Unless they're so far in advance they know he doesn't die.

But if that's the case, the Amy and Rory in the department store are just living average everyday lives (apart from being superstar models). And so were the Amy and Rory who at the start of the series went to Utah for the doctor's death.

While there can be two Amy and Rorys at the same place in the timeline, surely one of them must be a time travelling pair who are just dropping in. Can both pairs really live ordinary domestic lives at the same time? At a practical level, it's going to show up on tax and national insurance systems. Someone will notice.

I was going to go for tomorrow must mean tomorrow for the Doctor only, but it's pretty clear that:

a) Corden is in April 2011.
b) so are the Ponds who are heading to Utah to meet the Doctor (who dies on 22 April 2011).
c) So are the Ponds who are living life as supermodel-ed couple, and can't possibly be the same Ponds in b).

I can just about deal with the idea of them living in different places at the same time if both pairs were just living their own quiet lives, but wouldn't the Amy in b) be bothered by her mug suddenly cropping up on billboards everywhere?

Another explanation is that the doctor actually meets an earlier Amy/Rory in Utah 2010, before Tardis-ing them to Utah 2011, though why he'd bother getting them to go all the way there in the first place is a mystery...

(another holdover question I had from "The Impossible Astronaut" was where Older Doctor's Tardis was - we only see him in a stetson on a car, and we don't know what happened to it after he died. The first Tardis we see belongs to the Doctor who's 200 years younger.)

Are we supposed to believe that the doctor has been going around without a companion for 200 years? What if he is going early to Utah (in his timeline) and this screws things up somehow.

Roll on next week.

We need to crowd-source a complete list of questions to be answered next, s we can tick them off as we watch and double our fun.