Calif. teacher resigns after leaving family for student

lewd and lascivious battery: Teacher charged with having sex with 14-year-old student

And I'm saying that viewing your parents as people with a healthy sexual relationship does not necessarily entail accepting that your dad is going to lust after teenagers all his life because I think that is an embarrassing and shameful way to be and we should not accept it for ourselves in our own lives.

mw, sexualization by mass media isn't the same as acknowledging that people of that age have sexuality of their own.

but... young girls were super-heavily sexualized (in lots of cultures) way prior to mass media

xp

what i am saying really is if you can get through your whole life without having the asexual view of your parents that you had as a child tarnished in any way, you are among the few and the fortunate afaict

I knew I'd told this story on here before

The sexualization of younger and younger women

The sexualization of women happens when it happens and it usually happens pretty young (hello, what does pornography originally mean?) and it's precisely culture and 'civilization' and morality that tends to make people have to wait before shagging like stoats. If a man is a man at 13 in Jewish culture and a mere girl can be married at (to me) obscenely young ages in arranged marriage cultures where the consummation happens at 12 or 13 or 14; in a world where life expectancy was in the 40's or 50's until fairly recently, the current re-sexualization of adolescents is just reverting to the human id, albeit for other id reasons like money (status) or greed.

Is that whole story I've heard about the origin of women shaving their legs generally true?

Yeah, shakes, but those cultures were quite likely fucked up? Like, those young women were valued by older and more powerful men for their virginity, their fertility, the fact that as soon as they got married off at age 15, women had 29 kids and aged 20 years prematurely until they died in childbirth? Whatevs, they didn't exactly get the awesome end of the stick. So I don't see why examples like that should be aspirational?

Yeah, shakes, but those cultures were quite likely fucked up?

writing off an awfully huge swathe of civilization here

most of civilization has been pretty fucked up, in retrospect

And I'm saying that viewing your parents as people with a healthy sexual relationship does not necessarily entail accepting that your dad is going to lust after teenagers all his life because I think that is an embarrassing and shameful way to be and we should not accept it for ourselves in our own lives.

― drawn to them like a moth toward a spanakopita (Laurel), Thursday, March 1, 2012 4:49 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ok i'm not gonna keep stopping you from making these huge leaps of logic from what i said onto what you think i'm saying so have fun with that

Also, something I have never, ever got; why is the fact that your parents are fucking so gross to people? Do you really live in such an artifically antiseptic world that you would wish upon your parents that they become eunuchs? Did you never see happy lovers as a kid? Never see horses or butterflies rutting? Never wonder at the driven resiliance of salmon swimming upstream to spawn and die?

I just...don't get it and I never have.

mw you are talking about having a personal sexuality. This thread is specif about inappropriately older men having sex with or wanting to have sex with really young women. If you want to argue that you think it's awesome that you can fantasize about fucking teenagers and you feel good about being that guy, obviously that's up to you.

hmm I just don't want to think about my dad's penis, I guess, why is that complicated

i don't think pointing out how these relationships could've been, might've been normative in totally different history/context/culture/experience has any bearing on how they occur in our culture where they're certainly not normative. did we invent the idea of childhood (and later teenagehood) fairly recently in human history? yes. but now that they're been invented, it's not like they're just made-up nonsense. partially they were invented bc they were needed. just bc children were forced to labor throughout human history doesn't mean we should do it now.

reallllllly wary of any arguments that want to discuss this issue in terms of "biology" or "humanity's id" or "what other cultures have done in the past"

Also, something I have never, ever got; why is the fact that your parents are fucking so gross to people? Do you really live in such an artifically antiseptic world that you would wish upon your parents that they become eunuchs? Did you never see happy lovers as a kid? Never see horses or butterflies rutting? Never wonder at the driven resiliance of salmon swimming upstream to spawn and die?

I just...don't get it and I never have.

― Morning becomes apopleptic (Michael White), Thursday, March 1, 2012 9:55 PM (41 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Complete guess, but possibly a natural thing to stop you from wanting to fuck them yourself and thus create an inbred and unhealthy population? No idea whether that's true, though.

just bc children were forced to labor throughout human history doesn't mean we should do it now.

right obviously I'm not saying it's good or anything. but it's also not an aberration.

why is the fact that your parents are fucking so gross to people? Do you really live in such an artifically antiseptic world that you would wish upon your parents that they become eunuchs?

I'm not taking this as having been directed at me, but just in case: I said I think this is healthy! Just temporarily uncomfortable for you as a kid/teen.

This thread is specif about inappropriately older men having sex with or wanting to have sex with really young women. If you want to argue that you think it's awesome that you can fantasize about fucking teenagers and you feel good about being that guy, obviously that's up to you.

uh, pretty big difference between fantasizing about and actually doing something.

well, it's an aberration by contemporary standards. it's an aberration to stone homosexuals, but during most of history it was legit. our ethical expectations have changed. xxp

Laurel's "at younger and younger ages" implies that it's some deviation from the norm... but the norm, broadly speaking, has been pretty fucked up historically!

xp

Laurel, what we aspire to is very, very often not our biological past and eyeing beautiful women neither negates a healthy sexual relationship nor is it particularly shameful or even embarrassing (as long you're discreet).

- acquaintance who once complained to me about how "hard" it is to be a hs teacher because of the preponderance of hot young chix

― be scientific, douchebag (Shakey Mo Collier)

as a working teacher, i find this really f'd up and i find this really hard to understand ... no matter what they look like - and i have met many who look like more or less like adult women - teenage girls are still teenagers: obnoxious, childish, irresponsible, naive, selfish, etc ...

i really think you would have to

-- enjoy and seek out these personality traits (hard to believe)
-- only think about physical qualities (easier to believe)
-- have something wrong with you

to be attracted to a teenage girl

reallllllly wary of any arguments that want to discuss this issue in terms of "biology" or "humanity's id" or "what other cultures have done in the past"

This is perfectly healthy but I'm even more wary of arguments that don't. By all means kick a theory in the nuts if you think it makes baseless assumptions based on prejudice or self-interest or bias but at least come up with a theory?

I grew up in the country and I never saw horses or butterflies rutting as a child. How would you even know the butterflies were rutting?

obnoxious, childish, irresponsible, naive, selfish, etc ...

are you talking about one of my exes?

they stick together xp

You know, aerosmith and I agreed on some thread about a similar topic a long time ago (now that I think about it, it was prob the "look at the azz on that one" thread) and the crux of it was that I think people should rule their thoughts more--it's not like the fact that a thought CAN occur to you means that you should indulge it and take to an extreme just because it doesn't "hurt" anyone. Or that thoughts are free from any moral compass being applied just because there hasn't been an action taken at that time.

I mean I aspire to cause physical agony to a lot of people, every day. It's not like that anger and violence is free of consequences for me, personally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6j8EiWIVZs

if it's any consolation that hs teacher I was posting about is now blind, so his job's probably gotten "easier" lol

xp

Laurel otm. Although to be honest, I don't think I've wanted to harm anyone for years and years

im not sure what kind of "theory" im supposed to come up with here? i can barely parse this argument, tbh, im just noting that appeals to nature or appeals to the past arent particularly convincing

I think people should rule their thoughts more--it's not like the fact that a thought CAN occur to you means that you should indulge it and take to an extreme just because it doesn't "hurt" anyone. Or that thoughts are free from any moral compass being applied just because there hasn't been an action taken at that time.

Excellent point. Unproductive thoughts are as bad as unproductive actions. Any rational agent must be a merciless with self-criticism and control.

"This tenure business seems to create a lot of tension."
"You must have the same thing in England?"
"Oh no. Probation is more or less a formality. In practise, once you're appointed they can never get rid of you -- unless you seduce one of your students, or something equally scandalous." Philip laughed.
"You can screw as many students as you like here," said Ringbaum unsmilingly. "But if your publications are unsatisfactory..." He drew a finger expressively across his throat.

I mean I aspire to cause physical agony to a lot of people, every day.

I think I remember that thread and my point remains; as long as you're not beating nor killing people why should you beat up on yourslef for having thoughts? Did you plan them? Did you mean to? If not, loathing such thoughts is as pointless as hating your body or resenting gravity.

i don't see anything particularly "aberrant" about sexually mature people of any age desiring sexually mature people of any age. sexual maturity being something that's attained during puberty.

otoh, i understand why contemporary societies have established a protective cordon around youth. with that in mind, so long as all parties are of legal age and consenting (and so long as there isn't implied coercion of the type that seems likely to be present in student-teacher pairings), i have no problem with age disparities in relationships, or with appropriately discreet intergenerational ogling.

we can rehash the whole "ass on that one" thread if need be, but, no, i don't agree with that at all (xp to m. white)

gravity has no moral content.

do thoughts have no relationship to actions? loathing those kinds of thoughts is how you short circuit their impact on actual real life actions

veering wildly off topic I fear but for anecdote's sake: my Mum hated the sight of my Dad through most of my later childhood/teen years, so in a lot of ways I wish I had evidence of some kind of intimacy between them. Not to see it or anything weird, but just, I dunno, it might have given me some hope. And that was kind of why I grew up accepting Dad's covert porn stash. And my saddest memory of that period of time was during the height of Mum's hatred for Dad, I went to sneak a peek in Dad's regular porn hiding place and found a typewritten note from my Mum that said in bold letters FUCK YOU ASSHOLE. By then they were sleeping in separate beds, she was barely talking to him...I felt the full weight of his humiliation. I was never more sad for my Dad then than on that day. (by some weird miracle they stayed together and things are much better now...but that was a weird fucking time.)

Yay oversharing, sorry.

wheres contenderizer

I'm not as comfortable both for the particular nor for society with repression as some ppl seem to be - emotions and desires will find their way out, either sublimated or perverted and often with disastrously worse consequences than the whatever ill the original repression was meant to deal with.

you're begging the question.

kinda on M. White's side here re: the thought police

also omg Veg that story you are bumming me out

no one can police your thoughts. that technology does not yet exist.

iirc shakey was also anti-thought police in the ass thread

I don't remember that thread at all but probably

hi max!

i'm with michael white on the thoughts business, no surprise. have discussed this elsewhere on ilx (did you see that ass on that thread). all thoughts and desires are subject only the judgment of the person experiencing them. that is, if you're okay with your desires, then they're okay. period, no matter what. it's only when we act on our thoughts and desires, when we move them from within to without, that they become subject to other forms of judgment. this is a pragmatic stance more than a moral one.

and yeah, i understand that even "secret" thoughts can influence us, the line between thought and action is fuzzy, even so...

gravity has no moral content.

Huh? I mean in the context of something you can't really do anything about. You will want to sleep. You will need to relieve yourself. You will want to sleep. There's a very good chance that some ppl will feel strong sexual attraction.

There's a difference between sublimating a desire and just being mature enough in your life that you can acknowledge that someone made you angry or that some girl is attractive without lingering on it the entire day.

I'm a little biased in that (while undiagnosed, warnings apply) I have the tendency to fixate on something that bothers me or stimulates me emotionally and turn it over in my head all day. Learning not to fixate on things and to gain the ability to evaluate and dismiss thoughts is useful.