thompson is great, but he's a bit like PKD - wrote too much, wrote some very bad books, didn't have the luxury of refining and polishing even his very best work. the fact that there was nearly a twenty year gap between The Recognitions and JR suggests that wasn't such a problem for Gaddis :-)
And I'm not sure LIBERAL satire is totally fair or accurate - outside of his fiction, Gaddis seemed to be a real cultural conservative (ie none of that avant-garde shit for him) and his later books share some of the same curdled misanthropy with the Bellow (a Gaddis admirer) of The Dean's December etc
― Ward Fowler, Saturday, 8 September 2012 11:42 (twelve years ago) link
Yeah I know Jim wrote thrash (in a bad way) but some of his best bks have such concentrated power and hold on my mind. Know its not too polished but I don't know if polishing would really help -- the conditions under which this stuff was written under created disadvantages as well as advantages too.
Sorry about that stuff re: JR, upthread. Comes from some of the bits I've read about it (maybe on ilx, was years ago, can't remember). Really like misanthropic writing (Celine, Bernhard, Jelinek) so if its in that vein sign me up (would borrow it today but I think someone has nicked a copy of this from my local library *sigh*)
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 8 September 2012 11:56 (twelve years ago) link
Also I'd be interested in reading Slow Learner.
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 8 September 2012 12:25 (twelve years ago) link
One more for the somebody else = Hubert Selby.
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 8 September 2012 17:58 (twelve years ago) link
rising up, rising down is pretty good
― O_o-O_O-o_O (jjjusten), Thursday, September 6, 2012 3:40 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
did you for real read the whole thing? isn't it a million pages long
― catbus otm (gbx), Saturday, 8 September 2012 18:20 (twelve years ago) link
i didn't enjoy inherent vice, it seemed like a younger writer with a TP hardon decided to do a cross between lebowski and cheech and chong
― the late great, Saturday, 8 September 2012 19:01 (twelve years ago) link
Franzen writes more obviously recognisable 'human beings' but god does he find it difficult to disguise his contempt for them.
A good poll would be 'human beings' vs. 'sentences.'
― Earth, Wind & Fire & Alabama (Eazy), Saturday, 8 September 2012 19:38 (twelve years ago) link
gad i need to sell my copy of rising up & rising down
― thomp, Saturday, 8 September 2012 19:39 (twelve years ago) link
iirc far and away the most legit thing nicholson baker ever wrote was a chilling tale of horror involving potatoes and soup
― all yoga attacks are fire based (rogermexico.), Saturday, 8 September 2012 20:03 (twelve years ago) link
that's a good pun
― the late great, Saturday, 8 September 2012 20:32 (twelve years ago) link
― catbus otm (gbx), Saturday, September 8, 2012 2:20 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Man getting ahold of the 7-volume McSweeney's edition of that would thrill me. I swear I saw it in a Border!s one time years ago.
― "Pffft" --buddha (silby), Saturday, 8 September 2012 22:11 (twelve years ago) link
On the other hand I'm still barely 10% done with Imperial
i have the abridged one-volume edition and i read it random-access. usually in the bathroom. i like it! but then something like 40% of it is about the bolsheviks.
― a hauntingly unemployed american (difficult listening hour), Saturday, 8 September 2012 22:14 (twelve years ago) link
Voted Ellis
― Raymond Cummings, Saturday, 8 September 2012 23:56 (twelve years ago) link
Gaddis
― Mr. Que, Thursday, 6 September 2012 18:07 (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Ward Fowler, Thursday, September 6, 2012 1:26 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― cwkiii, Sunday, 9 September 2012 00:12 (twelve years ago) link
the only wrong answer to this is ellis. and franzen.
― karl...arlk...rlka...lkar..., Sunday, 9 September 2012 03:13 (twelve years ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.
― System, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 00:01 (twelve years ago) link
voted pynchon, although I honestly only love him through GR, didn't like Vineland, couldn't finish Mason and Dixon, haven't bothered with the last two yet. I love all of DFW's output though, but you can't deny V and GR.
― akm, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 04:13 (twelve years ago) link
DeLillo 4 eva
― Broney, Pt. 1 (Pillbox), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 04:17 (twelve years ago) link
10% Imperial = 3 Imperial Bedrooms
― Earth, Wind & Fire & Alabama (Eazy), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 04:17 (twelve years ago) link
voted Pynchon tho b/c I hate voting for the 'other' poll option
― Broney, Pt. 1 (Pillbox), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 04:18 (twelve years ago) link
couldn't finish Mason and Dixon
I'm a huge DFW fan, so he got my vote, but, seriously, you need to finish Mason and Dixon. It just gets better and better as you go.
― Cherish, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 13:28 (twelve years ago) link
i woudl have to restart it to do that, since I started reading it in 1994 or something.
― akm, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 13:37 (twelve years ago) link
Oh, haha! It was really good though.
― Cherish, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 14:02 (twelve years ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.
― System, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 00:01 (twelve years ago) link
Disappointed I missed this poll. Sort of shocked that a poll was even possible. Pynchon head and shoulders above the rest. Gaddis is the only one who ever did anything close. Lot 49 is Pynchon's worst, universally acknowledged by all true headz.
auster is one-note, and miserable at it. ellis trumps him & franzen by a landslide. the problem is that ellis can write really well when he feels like it, but he just doesn't usually even try.
― s.clover, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 00:29 (twelve years ago) link
I don't even think wallace was in conversation w/ pynchon, tho I could be dissuaded. Barth was much more what he was about (see westward empire, etc.) Like even treating pynchon as metafiction (or pomo, or much else) I think is v. point-missing. But I'm v. opinionated about the p.
― s.clover, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 00:31 (twelve years ago) link
i ask again: where was delillo?
― the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 01:10 (twelve years ago) link
(Hey, where's Bolano in this bitch?)Pynchon might well agree with everything in those two posts, Sterling: seems like he said he didn't want Crying published as a stand-alone, or maybe at all. I first saw it, or some of it, as (I think) "The World, The Flesh, and Mrs. Oedipa Maas," in an ancient library copy of Esquire. I liked it, ditto Slow Learner, though that's more for confirmed fans'compulsive collectors (some reviewers mentioned other, still-uncollected stories also worth reading). Non-headz may also dig his intro, expressing his frustration with his writing, sometimes mocking himself, and even when he likes something says it seems to have been done by elves, he doesn't remember writing it. I picked up the hipster detective novel, but quickly put it down: the opening pages seemed to squirm with self-consciousness, and maybe more frustration. I'll give it another shot someday. Meanwhile, hark the herald Thurn Und Taxishttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/MutedPosthorn.png
― dow, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 01:13 (twelve years ago) link
Oh yeah and this http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/books/2012/09/dfw-week-did-infinite-jest-start-out-as-an-autobiography.html?mbid=gnep&google_editors_picks=true
― dow, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 03:36 (twelve years ago) link
the intro to 'slow learner' is one of my favorite things pynchon's ever written -- his semi-recent intro to '1984' is great too. i can't think of any writer i'd rather read an introduction by.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 12 September 2012 05:51 (twelve years ago) link
Lot 49 is Pynchon's worst, universally acknowledged by all true headz
Crazy talk. Lot 49 is grebt but requires repeated exposure. There's stuff in there it's not even possible to clock until you've read it through at least once.
― all yoga attacks are fire based (rogermexico.), Wednesday, 12 September 2012 05:52 (twelve years ago) link
oedipa maas is a really great character. i don't know how pynchon managed to make such a passive character so fully developed, idiosyncratic, and endearing.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 12 September 2012 05:54 (twelve years ago) link
for some reason i always picture her as looking like '60s era joan didion, probably because of the california thing and because pynchon describes her as wearing sunglasses.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 12 September 2012 05:55 (twelve years ago) link
that works just fine imo
― all yoga attacks are fire based (rogermexico.), Wednesday, 12 September 2012 05:56 (twelve years ago) link
"There's stuff in there it's not even possible to clock until you've read it through at least once." <-- this is hardly a striking statement about a pynchon book.
I think my fav pynchon moment lately is the scooby-doo callback in Inherent Vice, or the record store window. Just because they're fresher, I tend to think about them more often. But for real, both IV and Vineland are way better than lot 49 in the "slim, california counterculture" side of pynchon's work. I like IV and AtD so much now that I've sort of stopped trying to rep for Vineland, because there's just too much good stuff (which was unexpected, surprising, and wonderful) so it's not worth like making the case for the "one underdog book" or whatever. Still, thumbs down to Lot49. Even if there's deeper stuff going on, it's too easy for it to permit really shallow readings.
― s.clover, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 13:30 (twelve years ago) link
this is like dismissing Tool "because of their fans"
― all yoga attacks are fire based (rogermexico.), Wednesday, 12 September 2012 13:56 (twelve years ago) link
i mean, i agree that due to length it's the most frequently and (therefore?) poorly taught Pynchon, but i'm not going to hold that against it.
― all yoga attacks are fire based (rogermexico.), Wednesday, 12 September 2012 13:59 (twelve years ago) link
yeah, kinda like when I got back to "A Rose For Emily" in the context of the expanded Portable Faulkner (or the original, single-LP version of Jack Johnson, after the rest of The Complete Jack Johnson Sessions, or the '75 double-LP Basement Tapes after the rest of A Tree With Roots). Initially, I had trouble adjusting to the overview. But I'll take Crying over A Rose any day (no Pynchon vs Faulkner thread please!)(oh alright) Mrs. Maas will always be the awesome older lady to me, no matter how old I get--no not like Mrs. Robinson, Mrs. M. is the good-hearted heroine, and not too xpost passive, she's on a quest!
― dow, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 15:05 (twelve years ago) link
"A Rose For Emily" really isn't up to most of The Portable though, and way over-anthologized and taught (although my English prof Mom incl a good video of it, with Anjelica Huston, I think)
― dow, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 15:08 (twelve years ago) link
Pynchon's intro to Been Down So Long It Looks Like Up To Me is good too;ditto the book reviews (haven't seen any in a long time). Enjoyed his competition w Stephen King, to see who could write the most blurbs.
― dow, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 15:12 (twelve years ago) link
for some reason i always picture her as looking like '60s era joan didion
EXACTLY
― the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 16:09 (twelve years ago) link
this is how i will always think of lot 49:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NIt99JpnZj0/UDIsW4mzmRI/AAAAAAAAD1U/R5gZHKv9qKg/s320/thomas+pynchon+crying+of+lot+49+cover.jpg
too easy to permit shallow readings isn't a crit of the fans tho, but the book. remember if you've read SL that pynchon is also the guy who wrote "entropy" and "low-lands". I mean V has hints of this stuff too -- precocious, but very glib and young. Like I wouldn't be this critical if later P didn't just blow it out of the water, in terms of subtlety and depth, characterwise and thematically. Most authors never even get to Lot49 level, or close. But that doesn't mean it's nearly his "best". You don't have a single character in that early stuff that can really match even a pointsman, much less a zoyd.
― s.clover, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 18:44 (twelve years ago) link
tbh i think part of me will always secretly side with the book you can read in an afternoon over the book that consumes 2-3 months of your reading life.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 12 September 2012 18:47 (twelve years ago) link
mindful pleasures: essays on pynchon
worth a read imo
http://c2.bibtopia.com/h/500/964/375964500.0.m.jpg
― the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 18:53 (twelve years ago) link
J.D.: then go with vineland or IV.
― s.clover, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 19:34 (twelve years ago) link
sterl, what attractions are there for you in the family drama picaresque part of atd? the one with traverse and the mathematician and uh the other in their triangle-thing across uh... eurasia? i really enjoyed atd but i haven't yet reread it to get a feel for how the seemingly weaker parts fit together in unappreciated ways.
― j., Wednesday, 12 September 2012 22:06 (twelve years ago) link
Like I wouldn't be this critical if later P didn't just blow it out of the water, in terms of subtlety and depth, characterwise and thematically. Most authors never even get to Lot49 level, or close. But that doesn't mean it's nearly his "best". You don't have a single character in that early stuff that can really match even a pointsman, much less a zoyd.
― s.clover, Wednesday, September 12, 2012
Okay, peace. I agree it certainly doesn't stand on its own as a towering work of fiction, and I sympathize with the yearly crop of college sophomores who encounter it in the context of "this guy is a really big deal." tbh I rarely think of it as a standalone work. more a warm-up lap and primer for GR.
That said, the claim that Pynchon has published anything less worthwhile than Inherent Vice seems pretty idiosyncratic. Unless I missed a panel at the True Headz 2012 convention.
― all yoga attacks are fire based (rogermexico.), Wednesday, 12 September 2012 22:38 (twelve years ago) link
i guess i'll give IV another shot. i read it when it came out and it seemed pretty lame.
harold bloom sez lot 49 is one of the 4-5 best modern american novels!
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 12 September 2012 22:54 (twelve years ago) link
harold bloom says a lot of insane shit
― the physical impossibility of sb in the mind of someone fping (silby), Wednesday, 12 September 2012 23:16 (twelve years ago) link