Charlie Chaplin: C/D

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Here is a cached version of an interesting page on the above subject.

As far as Chaplin is concerned, it seems to me that it became received wisdom in the past few decades that the stoic lover of mature women Buster Keaton is vastly preferable to the schmaltzy cradle-robber Charlie Chaplin, so maybe it is time to redress the balance.

Ken L (Ken L), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 13:13 (nineteen years ago) link

sorry anthony, i don't know what got into me. i find you ilx persona sort of guileless/humorless, though, which rubs me the wrong way on occasion.

contemporary films are projected at 24fps. silent film speeds varied, but most chaplins should be projected around 16fps. of course for video it's a different issue--there are various ways of making a film appear to be run at the right speed in a video transfer (i think ntsc video is 25fps or something like that, i forget).

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 15:57 (nineteen years ago) link

ntsc video is 29.97fps (usually)

s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 16:28 (nineteen years ago) link

thanks!! what is pal then?

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 16:31 (nineteen years ago) link

i dunno! for some reason i've always assumed it was the same frame rate (but different frame size)

s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 16:34 (nineteen years ago) link

PAL is 25fps, that's why PAL camcorders are preferred if you're going to transfer to film.

milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:07 (nineteen years ago) link

that's why i was confused, where i worked in france we transferred stuff to pal and had to deal with 16fps/25fps and other such issues.

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:09 (nineteen years ago) link

So when Fassbinder had his character answer the famous Godard dictum "Cinema is the truth, 24 times a second" with "it is a lie, told 25 times per second," he was referring to PAL!

Ken L (Ken L), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:23 (nineteen years ago) link

i don't really fully understand the reverance that several generations of critics and filmmakers for chaplin, though. he was like a god to them, from renoir to bresson to (name famous filmmaker here).

Was it mostly Europeans, tho? That would make sense -- his sensibility seems more European than any of his Hollywood contemporaries'. The whole sad-clown/trickster thing maybe resonates more with French and Italian ideas of commedia dell'arte than with broader and/or more deadpan American comedy (which could be why American viewers prefer the very American pacing and mayhem of the Sennett shorts). The most obvious Chaplin descendants I can think of are mostly European (Giulietta Masina, Jacques Tati).

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:27 (nineteen years ago) link

no, it wasn't mostly europeans! it was like every critic and director until the 1960s or so! (although yes chaplin was a HUGE influence on european, especially french, directors of the interwar period)

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:40 (nineteen years ago) link

so yeah, actually i think you have a point. renoir in his autobio made the chaplin/commedia dell'arte connection pretty explicitly.

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:41 (nineteen years ago) link

American critics, maybe (Agee, e.g.), but what American filmmakers cited him? I don't see a lot of Chaplin influence in Hollywood after 1930 or so.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:43 (nineteen years ago) link

(not disagreeing with the general premise of Chaplin's artistic stature, but i just wonder if it was more ascribed to him honorifically than actually borne out through overt influence)

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:45 (nineteen years ago) link

lubitsch (he was german, but his chaplin-influenced stuff was in hollywood), vidor, etc. but you know, you're probably right about his stature as an "auteur" being greater in europe.

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:50 (nineteen years ago) link

Chaplin's slapstick/gags have influenced every Hollywood comedy of the last 80 years. The suds, less so.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 18:02 (nineteen years ago) link

not EVERY hollywood comedy.

s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 18:47 (nineteen years ago) link

At last we have someone to blame for Kangaroo Jack. DAMN YOU CHAPLIN!

n/a (Nick A.), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 18:48 (nineteen years ago) link

Just as you can't blame Zep for all the horseshit bands they 'inspired'...

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 18:49 (nineteen years ago) link

SEZ WHO?

n/a (Nick A.), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 18:55 (nineteen years ago) link

Oh, I do blame Zep for being a horseshit band themselves.

Chaplin (re)invented cinema comedy grammar, hence all who followed are influenced whether they know it or not. Similar to Griffith with melodramas and chase sequences.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 18:57 (nineteen years ago) link

(re)invented cinema comedy grammar

how do you mean? as an assertion this is both vague and broad.

max linder's films have some very chaplin-esque qualities, pre-chaplin. though a search for precedents is neverending, almost by definition.

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 18:59 (nineteen years ago) link

Yes, certainly he didn't originate his entire style full-blown, but as he was the first auteur and superstar ... even *Keaton* acknowledged he influenced him, I think.

Chiefly, no predecessor incorporated gags, set pieces, etc into a dramatic narrative to the degree he did.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 19:03 (nineteen years ago) link

I think Keaton and Lloyd are funnier, though Chaplin at his best was hilarious. I just saw a short called In The Park or something like that and it was hilarious and somewhat mean as well. I know cinema is a business but I have to admire the asthetic rigor that impelled him to shut down production on City Lights in the era of the talkies in order to get one scene right.

M. White (Miguelito), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 21:34 (nineteen years ago) link

My personal favourite is "Modern Times", which is pretty much flawless in my good. Depends on how partial to pathos you are, mind, as to whether you'd consider it a masterwork. Sublime ending...

Also, "The Gold Rush" is rather unimpeachable; some utterly majestic sequences...

In terms of his sound films, yes, he doesn't work so well in the format, but do not underestimate "Monsieur Verdoux", a notably dark film, with Chaplin's addressing-the-world tendency for once injecting a note of lasting despair. Well balanced by lighter moments. However, "A King in New York" is forlornly bad; a bitter film that just ends up seeming petty and stillborn. The self-regarding "Limelight" I am undecided about, and "The Great Dictator" is a bizarre panoply of tones and approaches...

Tom May (Tom May), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 23:17 (nineteen years ago) link

I don't think I find CC's films as compulsively watchable and glorious as those of Laurel and Hardy (and the few I have seen of Keaton, in a very different way), but if I'm in the right mood, they are a genuine treat.

And I think that's the rub. Up-thread, there is comment on his Victorian quality. He brings sophisticated physical comedy and high cultural signifiers (self-composed classical scores, lest we forget) together with all of the pathos and spectacle of the Victorian showman - whether Irving or Dan Leno. There are sentimental music-hall type songs/themes, such as "Smile" (melo) and exaggerated villains and desperate situations ('drama'). His tramp's a bit like a Dickensian protagonist, or a persecuted hero in mid-Victorian crime melodramas such as Tom Taylor's "Ticket of Leave Man".

It's not particularly easy to fully enjoy Chaplin on the terms set out by comedy in 2005, or even 1955...

Tom May (Tom May), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 23:30 (nineteen years ago) link

ten months pass...
I saw Modern Times for the first time a few weeks ago, and I found it hilarious and touching.

Andrew (enneff), Friday, 31 March 2006 00:52 (eighteen years ago) link

one year passes...

this is amazing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcvjoWOwnn4

and what, Tuesday, 2 October 2007 20:46 (seventeen years ago) link

four years pass...

Saw The Gold Rush at the NY Film Fest today, w/ accompaniment by members of the NY Philharmonic. I didn't know that TGR (and other features of his) can't be theatrically exhibited unless there's an orcgestra of at least 13 pieces playing!

Anyway, tho I prefer Keaton's features in general, the dance of the rolls is one of the all-time great moments. And the laughs still counterbalanced the pathos at that point.

incredibly middlebrow (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 11 October 2011 01:03 (thirteen years ago) link

(...of his career, I mean)

incredibly middlebrow (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 11 October 2011 01:03 (thirteen years ago) link

if you don't like The Kid you're insane.

piscesx, Tuesday, 11 October 2011 02:02 (thirteen years ago) link

ha, forgot about this thread -- i disown most of what i said; chaplin subsequently became more or less my favorite film person ever.

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 11 October 2011 05:58 (thirteen years ago) link

i saw 'city lights' with an audience a couple years ago and it pretty much was the best film experience ever.

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 11 October 2011 06:02 (thirteen years ago) link

probably should quit ending sentences with 'ever.'

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 11 October 2011 06:03 (thirteen years ago) link

this thread just reminded me that i forgot to record Limelight on TCM last night. I've never seen it.

Rory's new misogynist car (Gukbe), Tuesday, 11 October 2011 06:11 (thirteen years ago) link

four months pass...

the MI5 file: "It may be that Chaplin is a communist sympathiser but on the information before us he would appear to be no more than a 'progressive', or radical."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/feb/17/mi5-spied-on-charlie-chaplin

Literal Facepalms (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 18 February 2012 10:02 (twelve years ago) link

"City Lights" is being shown here at the end of March with accompaniment by the Cleveland Orchestra and I'm seriously considering going even though I just watched it again on Netflix not two months ago.

A Full Torgo Apparition (Phil D.), Saturday, 18 February 2012 13:32 (twelve years ago) link

one month passes...

Ugh, went w/partner to a screening of The Gold Rush not realising it was the 1942 re-release.

"In 1942, Chaplin released a new version of The Gold Rush, taking the original silent 1925 film and composing and recording a musical score, adding a narration which he recorded himself, and tightening the editing which reduced the film's running time by several minutes.

DO NOT WANT. We ended up leaving about five minutes in; we couldn't take the narration any longer.

etc, Monday, 16 April 2012 17:48 (twelve years ago) link

p sure I've only happened on to that version on TV long ago

World Congress of Itch (Dr Morbius), Monday, 16 April 2012 18:38 (twelve years ago) link

the current DVD version of 'the gold rush' emphasizes that version and tacks on the original version as an 'extra,' apparently at the insistence of chaplin's family.

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Monday, 16 April 2012 19:18 (twelve years ago) link

123 today. Showed my class the boxing match from City Lights; they laughed, so they I showed them the Oceana rolls from Gold Rush; they laughed at that, so I moved onto the factory scene from Modern Times.

clemenza, Monday, 16 April 2012 19:44 (twelve years ago) link

two months pass...

Criterion set of The Gold Rush makes a restored edition of the reconstructed silent version (with an adaptation of the '42 musical score) fully available at last.

http://www.slantmagazine.com/dvd/review/the-gold-rush/2341

I have to say it's risen even further in my esteem after seeing it this way at the NYFF last fall and another 3 times while absorbing this set. The emotional strings are plucked somewhat more subtly, maybe, than in City Lights and Modern Times, even if it's not as knockabout gritty as the shorts.

Pangborn to be Wilde (Dr Morbius), Friday, 22 June 2012 15:00 (twelve years ago) link

also, every auteur needs a chicken suit.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lw605siTyO1qa6obyo1_500.jpg

Pangborn to be Wilde (Dr Morbius), Friday, 22 June 2012 16:31 (twelve years ago) link

oh my local vid rental place got this in recently. excited!

Impetuous hybrid (Matt P), Friday, 22 June 2012 16:42 (twelve years ago) link

one year passes...
five months pass...

Graham Greene writes to CC after his banishment, one of the overlooked mega-moves of McCarthyism:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119468/graham-greene-writes-support-charlie-chaplin-against-mccarthyism

son of a lewd monk (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 18 September 2014 15:35 (ten years ago) link

six months pass...

“Charlie Chaplin’s The Tramp was released to the public through Essanay Studios on April 12th, 1915.... Chaplin has been much written about in the 100 years since he first captured the attention of the public, but his career is so jam-packed with messy attitudes and impulses that it still stands as a shifting, fresh body of work to marvel at and get lost in.”

http://www.rogerebert.com/balder-and-dash/charlie-chaplins-the-tramp-at-100

the increasing costive borborygmi (Dr Morbius), Monday, 13 April 2015 20:59 (nine years ago) link

eleven months pass...

The Kid looks astonishing on the new Criterion blu-ray, and the movie itself is still a joy.

rhymes with "blondie blast" (cryptosicko), Tuesday, 15 March 2016 23:52 (eight years ago) link

one month passes...
one year passes...

Filmstruck loses his Keystone, Essanay and Mutual shorts in about 48 hours — which ones should I try to catch before then?

20-lol pileup (WilliamC), Tuesday, 18 April 2017 18:10 (seven years ago) link

all the Mutuals

Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 18 April 2017 18:27 (seven years ago) link

I feel like that's an unfortunate byproduct of modern-day film (and television) comedy in general, and probably a big reason why I've exponentially grown to love Chaplin, Keaton, Lloyd, early Laurel & Hardy, Charley Chase and other silent masters - that era was really the only time where all of a comedy was perfectly geared towards a visual medium for obvious reasons. Meanwhile, so much of a comedy in the modern era is based around sketch comedy and stand-up routines, becoming much more dependent on verbal cues.

birdistheword, Friday, 6 October 2023 18:01 (one year ago) link

*all of comedy

birdistheword, Friday, 6 October 2023 18:02 (one year ago) link

Darn these Talkies have ruined everything

Andy the Grasshopper, Friday, 6 October 2023 18:14 (one year ago) link

That's an extremely clever sketch (idea) that somehow never actually reaches "funny".

Halfway there but for you, Friday, 6 October 2023 18:39 (one year ago) link

I kind of like the few "famous stories about great artists" sketches I can remember from that era - it seems like a concept they really enjoyed doing, partly so they can go to town with depicting gross mischaracterizations. For example, the one where Ringo goes from "I'm just happy to be here!" to being really opinionated about the direction the Beatles should take during their formidable years, and also when Picasso is a loud-mouthed cheap buffoon who pays everything by scribbling a doodle. (Not even that - at one point he sneezes some snot into a tissue and says "why it's another masterpiece from Picasso!" and proceeds to sign it and toss it on to the ground, prompting all the waiters to dive for it.)

birdistheword, Friday, 6 October 2023 18:48 (one year ago) link

six months pass...

Showed my class the boxing match from City Lights; they laughed

Watching "City Lights" right now and the boxing match is so brilliantly choreographed - and funny. I feel like see dozens of "comical" boxing scenes in movies but this is the best by a million miles.

I've left the box of soup near your shoes (Tom D.), Saturday, 4 May 2024 13:20 (six months ago) link

... I feel like I've seen, that is.

I've left the box of soup near your shoes (Tom D.), Saturday, 4 May 2024 13:20 (six months ago) link

It really is, down to the split-second--especially the way Chaplin keeps disappearing behind the referee.

clemenza, Saturday, 4 May 2024 16:27 (six months ago) link


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