Is this anti-semitism?

Funny, all the French Jews I know are not crazy about Israeli policy towards Palestinians and they all say the gesture is COMPLETELY racist

french jews are crazy racist tho

I want you to explain that comment.

When I think of french jews I think of the last time I was in Tel Aviv, when I was on the beach with H and K and this older french couple started talking to us. I guess I looked a little bit swaggy because i had my tortoise shell ray-bans and was kind of in shape, and the old guy was like "What kind of work - finance? finance?" And the way he pronounced it twice "fee-NAHNCE? fee-NAHNCE?" always rings out in my head.

He also told me I speak English "like an Englishman"

also my downstairs neighbor is apparently an older french jewish lady who smokes a lot and I can smell her damned cigarettes in my daughter's room, which is fucking gross. So I hate that lady.

From personal experience (family, living there), a lot of french people are crazy racists.

Yesterday I got into a Twitter argument with someone who insisted that anti-semitism didn't mean anti-Jew because not all semitic peoples are Jews. When I pointed out that "anti-semitism" was coined with that specific meaning, one that is widely understood and cited by all dictionaries and encyclopaedias, he responded that it was "confirmation bias" and most people were mindless sheep who didn't understand the true meaning of words. Predictably, it turned out that he was a raving anti-semite, in the popular sense of the word. Bigots love arguing about semantics.

"phobia means 'fear' but i'm not frightened of gays" etc

lol they're not anti-semantic that's for sur

Can't be anti-semitic if yr cool with Akkadians iirc

i'd Hittite

no wait they were Aryan sorry

lol

xp OTM re: homophobia. Also related to people who like to say the Nazis were National SOCIALISTS, ignoring the admittedly counterintuitive early 20C concept of anti-Marxist socialism.

considering anti-semitism was designed (by an anti-semite!) to be a more scientific term for jew-hatred, maybe we should just agree w/ these semantic assholes that they're not anti-semites and just go back to judenhass for the favored expression.

oh man it grinds my gears when i say i am anti-semitic and people think i just hate jews

yeah personally i only hate Edomites imagine how i long for a proper word

The anti-semitism in French is frightening, but it strikes me as a very racist and splintered society in general? I mean, it's a country that as lately as the sixties massacred hundreds of immigrants, threw the bodies in the Seine, and covered it up for decades. There's a lot of hate going round.

wow not to sidetrack but I never knew about that
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961

An (African-American) friend of mine has been spending some time in Paris, and he sent me an email yesterday talking about what a wonderful city it is and yet, simultaneously, how mind-boggling anti-semitic the French are. As he put it, it makes him miss the more familiar, veiled versions of prejudice he experiences at home.

I do think the story of opression of North Africans is quite relevant to the discussion. To explain the hate, though, it makes the way it comes out as anti-semitism even dumber and more misguided, as most of the really inhumane stuff was being done by former vichy-collaborators. Afaik, I'm no expert.

Blaming Jews bc of your oppression is not a new story, and doesn't really add any nuance - that's always the context of judenhass.

I think the French are xenophobic in a particular, modern sort of way, where any group identifying itself as anything other than secular French is suspect. Of course at the same time French people are very protective of who gets to be considered/called "French" so it's a tough game to win. My sister-in-law who lived in France said that otherwise intelligent and well-meaning people seemed offended and uncomprehending at the idea of a "Jewish identity"

Yesterday I got into a Twitter argument with someone who insisted that anti-semitism didn't mean anti-Jew because not all semitic peoples are Jews. When I pointed out that "anti-semitism" was coined with that specific meaning, one that is widely understood and cited by all dictionaries and encyclopaedias, he responded that it was "confirmation bias" and most people were mindless sheep who didn't understand the true meaning of words. Predictably, it turned out that he was a raving anti-semite, in the popular sense of the word. Bigots love arguing about semantics.

― Deafening silence (DL), Friday, January 10, 2014 7:26 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Right, this is kind of linguistic shell-game. I don't really ultimately care whether it's called "anti-semitism" or not as long as everyone can agree on a word for it. But the goal of the person making that point is usually to avoid discussion of the substance.

I was reading some of noted jewhating author K3v1n McDon4ald last year and one of his major critiques - particularly in "A People That Shall Dwell Alone," - is that the Jewish people are an insular, self-promoting group that works towards their own economic success as opposed to larger groups. What struck me about this wasn't how unreasonable the assertion was, but rather how it is too reasonable. All peoples + communities obviously prioritize their in-group success over strangers - this occurs at every level from the family to the nation. One of the paradigmatic elements of antisemitism is the recontextualization of normal human behavior as demonic or condemnable. Cf Israel for a particularly obvious example of this (even tho "everybody does it" isn't a particularly compelling argument). This also resonates w/ things I learnt in a theological context growing up, particularly these two points 1) as the chosen ppl, jews are held to a higher standard of ethical behavior bc more is expected of them (which dovetails nicely w/ the critique that Israel should know better bc Jews were in the Holocaust - Howard Jacobson talks a bit about this), and 2) that the more Jews assimilate into the general culture, the more the general culture repels them (this is the standard theological line about WW2 + Europe - that antisemitism grew in light of the largest cultural assimilation in history*). It's relevant here I think bc France's big complaint about the Jews (ever since Napoleonic era) is that they didn't assimilate into French society ("We must refuse everything to the Jews as a nation and accord everything to Jews as individuals.") - again that the very right of peoplehood is denied in antisemitism. In that context it's not a surprise that the term antisemitism itself becomes undermined by antisemites - Jews aren't even allowed to acknowledge the persecutions that uniquely affect them w/out being told that the word actually refers mostly to Arabs (and if you're Sholem Sand then antisemitism ONLY refers to Arabs since the Jews are really just Khazars).

* nb I just wanted to mention that this is a canard - most assimilated German jewry was able to escape WW2 bc of their educational + economic advantages. The primary victims of the Holocaust were already-marginalized shtetl Jews in Ukraine + Poland who were certainly not assimilating, primarily the large chassidic community of the Pale

right, I've kind of come to reject the "one-drop" anti-semitism theory, or the idea that no matter how much you assimilate, society will always see you as a Jew first. I don't think that's entirely true. It's certainly not true in the US. I mean there are elements that will always trot that out, but they're more marginal here.

right, obv the one-drop thing is ridiculous but my point is broader that as a Jew you should be allowed to not assimilate if you don't want to. obv Hitler was esp odious bc he didn't care if you converted or not - he just cared about purity of blood. but the Spanish inquisition letting Jews live if they convert to Christianity is not better - acc to a lot of traditional texts the annihilation of the Jewish people as a people is even more problematic than the annihilation of individual Jewish lives. i'm not so sure about saying one is worse or better than the other, just that ppl (like the french) who are not against the Jewish body but against the Jewish people are not really evading antisemitism. also reminds me a little of this quote from the haggadah:

Go forth and learn what Laban the Aramean wanted to do to our father Jacob. Pharaoh had issued a decree against the male children only, but Laban wanted to uproot everyone - as it is said: "The Aramean wished to destroy my father; and he went down to Egypt and sojourned there, few in number; and he became there a nation - great and mighty and numerous."

also cf the channukah story where the greeks forbade torah learning + circumcision but let jews live who otherwise ceased practicing judaism

Jews in France are caught between secular republicans who find the idea of communautarisme a danger for the unitary Republic, Catholic and identity-centered right-wing anti-semites and left-wing anti-zionists who are highly influenced by the large Maghrebin population. To some extent they are also the victims of their own success, having assimilated relatively well and done well for themselves, they are a target of resentment from the petite-bourgeoisie.

this weeks' nyer story about the roma is interesting in the context of french xenophobia/bigotry/national identity. best thing ive read by adam gopnik who i usually hate

more Dieudonne - this stuff is all over my fb feed:

http://blog.thecst.org.uk/?p=4706

The worst thing about Dieudonné's anti-semitism is that he started his career working with Élie Semoun (a French Jew) lambasting racism in France.

it's funny that this thread is active today and yet no talk as of yet about amiri baraka

* nb I just wanted to mention that this is a canard - most assimilated German jewry was able to escape WW2 bc of their educational + economic advantages. The primary victims of the Holocaust were already-marginalized shtetl Jews in Ukraine + Poland who were certainly not assimilating, primarily the large chassidic community of the Pale

Not the case in this family, unfortunately

xp what do you think of amiri baraka, mordy?

any positive opinions i may have held about his innovations in improv poetry + performance have been long overshadowed by his frightening, paranoid hatred of jews

this is what i commented on a fb thread on the topic:

One thing that makes Baraka a bit more troubling than Pound or Eliot (or de Man, or Heidegger) is that those poets lived in the judenhass hegemonic context of 20th century Europe. Baraka had no such excuse plying these ideas in 21st century US (or at least not quite as much an excuse if you aren't as optimistic about the state of American anti-semitism as I am).

did you know his first wife was jewish?

i don't say that to excuse him but i find it an interesting fact

i did not. i'm really only familiar w/ his work and not his personal life.

he was a complicated guy, for sure

i put up one of my favorite amiri baraka poems of his on facebook, then thought a bit about the line "rape the white girls. rape / their fathers. cut the mothers' throats" and took it down.

also i feel like there's a big conversation yet to be had about judenhass in the black power + nation of islam communities that i imagine had an impact on baraka

https://evbdn.eventbrite.com/s3-s3/eventlogos/18281311/professorgriff.jpg

Hmm, let Griff ruminate on this a bit.

Crap, fucked up my joke! Try again:

http://evbdn.eventbrite.com/s3-s3/eventlogos/18281311/professorgriff.jpg

Hmm, let Griff ruminate on this a bit.

mordy when you're talking about the right not to assimilate, what sorts of things do you mean above & beyond religious freedom?

There are lots of cultural reasons not to assimilate.

I mean the right not to be coercively assimilated either culturally, religiously or politically: and that the rights of citizens should not be dependent on the groups assimilation.

I am curious how ppl understand assimilation, esp ppl who see it as a threatening thing. coercion & conditional rights seem obviously terrible, but I have always thought of 'soft' social assimilation as a good thing, tho not a responsibility.

assimilation into a not-terrible culture wd be ok i guess