Is this anti-semitism?

And I'm not trying to make some facile comparison. I'm trying to explain, that not a week goes by without something anti-muslim happening in Denmark, from muslim women being harrassed in the streets to politicians tweeting that muslims are like Hitler and should be stopped the same way, to insane legislation being proposed (just this week the biggest party announced that they will pull Denmark out of any international convention that would get in the way of dealing with immigrants. No protests on the other side. Also, conditions for asylum seekers, which is already pretty dreadful, should be worsened until we get significantly fewer asylum seekers). So to be told by Americans that our problem is in fact with anti-semitism is sorta frustrating. Because it's not. France is different, but Europe is more than France.

And I get why you guys - I'm guessing a lot of you are Jewish? - are focusing more on anti-semitism than anti-arabism, but if you were muslims living in Denmark, and read and wrote so much about the conditions of muslims in other parts of the world, politicians would lament that you were only interested in people of your own faith and that it pointed to bad integration. Because Denmark has a massive problem with discrimination of muslims.

I understand this and you are otm. I am just saying that in France, islamophobia and anti-semitism are two sides of the same coin, that it's one big problem.

Also I'd like to say that all the jews I know in France feel very safe, way safer than most arabs.

Am I right, though, that a large contingent of immigrant groups in Europe are also Muslim? It seems like the anti-Muslim sentiment stems at least in part from strong strains of anti-immigrant sentiment. The anti-semitism, on the other hand, obviously preceded Israel and focused on an indigenous (albeit still "other") group; one of the main reasons Israel exists is that there was no other country for the Jews to "go back" to. (Interestingly, Denmark specifically had one of the best relationships with its (admitedelly small) Jewish population c. WWII.)

The anti-Muslim sentiment may also stem in part from the (relative) proliferation of Islamic extremism throughout Europe, too, if not extremists in deed then certainly extreme in viewpoint and political disposition. (Denmark obviously had that whole cartoonist incident). I think a lot of Western European countries are a bit torn when it comes to their Muslim populations, who indeed are often ghetto-ized, sometimes by choice but sometimes by default, with no effort at integration (again, sometimes by choice, sometimes not).

Judaism, as a culture and as a religion, can I think be pretty subtle to outsiders, My sister, who is nominally Jewish but not religious, lives in England, and says, purely anecdotally, that a lot of people she encounters can't process how somehow can be both Jewish and not religious. Then again, she also tells me about Jewish friends who have Christmas trees, because it's so totally secular that everyone has Christmas trees, to which I cry BS. There are clearly social pressures at work to default Christian, no matter how many people claim to be secular. I've seen the same thing with family in Australia. Religion plays such a small public role there, and yet, every kid is expected to dress in red and green and participate in the annual school Christmas show. Because, you know, doesn't mean anything, secular, etc.

"It seems like the anti-Muslim sentiment stems at least in part from strong strains of anti-immigrant sentiment. The anti-semitism, on the other hand, obviously preceded Israel and focused on an indigenous (albeit still "other") group"

in an old piece reposted recently Badiou addresses this:

http://www.versobooks.com/blogs/1676-anti-semitism-real-and-imagined-by-alain-badiou-and-eric-hazan

Before the War, the majority of Jews were foreigners who had arrived from Poland, Lithuania or Romania, who spoke Yiddish and belonged to the poorest section of the working class: they were the Arabs and Africans of their day. Nowadays, Jews are pretty well 'integrated', and this kind of anti-Semitism and racism finds other targets.

This anti-Semitism of the 1930s was, in fact, a component of the same anti-popular sentiment that still stigmatizes the most recent arrivals in France. In the nineteenth century, it was the Auvergnats, Bretons, Italians and Savoyards; after the 1914–18 War, the Poles, the Jews from the east, the Spanish; after the Second World War, the Portuguese and, with a strong additional racist component which was exacerbated by the colonial wars, the Algerians and Moroccans – today the Malians and Congolese. Without grasping this continuity it is impossible to understand either pre-WWII anti-Semitism or the present situation. This is an element which is still able to resurge, even at the state level, with a view to stoking up resentment against a poor section of the population: a very classic manoeuvre of anti-popular division, which struck a large section of Jews before the Second World War and is practised today against those people called 'immigrants'

"The anti-Muslim sentiment may also stem in part from the (relative) proliferation of Islamic extremism throughout Europe, too, if not extremists in deed then certainly extreme in viewpoint and political disposition."

Or...it could do with racism or xenophobia?!

"I think a lot of Western European countries are a bit torn when it comes to their Muslim populations, who indeed are often ghetto-ized, sometimes by choice but sometimes by default, with no effort at integration (again, sometimes by choice, sometimes not)."

Interesting that you place "choice" first while the influence of state policy (or "default" as you call it) is secondary, almost an afterthought. I think you have that relationship backwards, and the effect is that it seems like you think Islamophobia is at least ~partly~ justified - after all, so many of them hold Islamists views and didn't make an effort to integrate into European liberal democracy!

Like Christmas has anything to do with Christianity... maybe in America it still does.(xp)

"The anti-Muslim sentiment may also stem in part from the (relative) proliferation of Islamic extremism throughout Europe, too, if not extremists in deed then certainly extreme in viewpoint and political disposition.

This reads like Geert Wilders tbh. Proliferation?

Like Christmas has anything to do with Christianity... maybe in America it still does.

Yeah, in America it still does. Who gets inflamed when somebody writes a "Happy Holidays" card in order to be inclusive of Jews? Not protectors of America's secular civic culture, I can tell you that.

The thing about immigrants vs muslims is pretty interesting. The whole reason the right wants to withdraw Denmark from the international conventions is because those conventions will only allow Denmark to make laws hurting immigrants as a whole, while they want to specify that muslims should be treated worse than other. Like, there is a law limiting marriages to foreigners, and everyone knows people who has had to move to Sweden as a result (my friend married a Russian, and my cousin with dual Danish-Japanese citizenship couldn't get her family to the country, for instance) The law was controversial as a result, so now the right just wants to limit the ability to marry a muslim. There's a constant effort to make Denmark more attractive to the high-earning, western immigrant, so the question is always how to do this while still being tough on muslims.

And it's a bit misleading to call Jews 'indigenous' to Denmark. They were obviously immigrants as well (as was pretty much everyone, I'm descended from German immigrants as well) and their integration really began in 1814, where they were acknowledged as being fully Danish citizens by the king, on the condition that they stopped wearing Jewish clothing, speaking yiddish, etc. Which really is early, Norway forbid Jewish immigration at around the same time, so...

Denmark definitely has a problem with islamism, kids fighting in Syria, foiled terrorist attacks, etc, but while most islamophobes would justify their racism that way, it shouldn't be taken at face value. Again, it's why it annoys me that all this talk about anti-semitic muslims is accepted at face value by foreigners: It's part of a story about 'extremist muslims' which is used to justify racist discrimination. When you get down to it, most of the non-danish behaviour that muslims do is stuff like not eating pork (which isn't a problem when Jews do the same), being anti-gay (which isn't a problem when christians think the same) etc.

Like, there is a law limiting marriages to foreigners, and everyone knows people who has had to move to Sweden as a result (my friend married a Russian, and my cousin with dual Danish-Japanese citizenship couldn't get her family to the country, for instance)

whoa, did not know this.

also did not know that

It's not an outright ban (once your older than 24), but it can be tough to live up to the rules.

there's a growing strand of thought on the left here in france that france should turn its attention more to the maghreb and west africa, and less to the_west, since linguistically the french have an edge in africa that other european nations don't have. this would concomitantly involve stronger attempts at integrating french people of ancestry from those places into french civil life. I've been ~thinking about that~ while watching the gaza protests in the last month (saw a little one here in marseille, & heard one a bigger one from a distance across the jardin de luxembourg in paris). thinking : how would this turn, if successful (obv lol @ that, it's the left in france), affect anti-semitism here? I've been walking with a friend in a luxe quarter in paris, on the rue de seine, with an orthodox american friend who was dressed like it; and he got verbally abused by a guy on the street; at least in paris, anti-semitism is an overt thing. (dunno about marseille yet, though we live close enough to the center that I'll find out soon enough I'm sure.)

I think France especially has a mistrust of anyone who holds themselves out as anything other than 100% secular and culturally French, hence there also being the headscarf ban. A family member who lived there for a while said that even as a purely secular Jew she had arguments with educated people about why she maintained any Jewish identity at all, something that Americans just don't seem to do, if only out of our weird aversion to discussing religion or politics publicly. So there's that *and* there's anti-Jewish sentiment in the muslim community. Being a minority group never ceases to be problematic, even when prosperity brings periods of safety, and the liberal philosophical position against "all" discrimination never seems to prevent people from considering some forms of discrimination as more worthy than others. It seems like Frederik's point is that right now Europe is still treating anti-Semitism as more worthy than anti-Islamism, which is probably true. euler is pointing out that a country can pretty easily flip the two if it becomes politically expedient.

xpost I in no way intended to justify islamophobia, just saying that I see where it sometimes comes from. That is, xenophobia (which I've always thought of as interchangeable with anti-immigrant). And part of my observation was based in misconceptions I have from an American vantage. That is, I was thinking of "Europe" as a whole, and didn't really consider (though I suppose should have) movement from Germany or Poland to Denmark, or Denmark to Sweden, as immigration, writ large. I admit I never thought of movement within Europe as "immigration," in the more dramatic, say, Africa to Europe, or Mexico to America sense, though of course it is.

Anti-semitism, though, frequently comes from, imo, a deeper place, whether explicitly couched in ancient church doctrine (Jews killed Jesus), or the spread of propaganda (Protocols, etc.). Many, too many, people just don't like Muslims, or blame some Muslims for what other Muslims do elsewhere, or aren't comfortable around Muslims. But Jew hatred seems different to me, going beyond prejudice. Dunno.

xposting I don't know who Geert Wilders is, but I assume he's bad and he was invoked as a criticism. To clarify again, I mean proliferation in the sense that I read stories of so-called "radical mosques," or "radical Imams" coming out of England, France, Denmark, wherever. It's once again my ignorant American location working against me. "Radical" mosques would not even stand a chance in a country as Islamophobic as ours. "Moderate" mosques have a hard enough time. So when I read about the former's existence at all throughout Europe, yeah, the word proliferation came to mind. Just that they're there at all, and relatively new, though of course not in high numbers. So my mistake.

Was just reading a book about the Beatles, btw, and there are a couple of paragraphs about the band's passive anti-Semitism, or at least insensitivity, early on, c. 1962, especially around Brian Epstein. Lots of stuff about money, or him not supposed to work on Saturday, or bacon jokes, mostly the band's ignorance and immaturity at work. But still.

I don't know who Geert Wilders is

There is this thing called Google.

Lennon made some pretty savage anti-semitic digs at Epstein while he was alive that seemed more the work of Lennon's misanthropy and general vileness than ignorance or immaturity. Didn't he tell Epstein that he should title his autobiography 'Queer Jew'?

I never really bought the "Jew hatred is different and inexplicable" argument -- I see it as a combination of religious enmity, mistrust of a "mysterious" minority group, fear, resentment, all the stuff that usually goes into a prejudice. Obviously it has its unique blend of these elements based on particularities of the situation. It's not exactly identical to American racism against blacks, or islamophobia, but it doesn't strike me as a singular phenomenon any more than any other hatred is.

Who are these people? Why are they different from us? Why don't they want to be like us? What are they doing and saying behind closed doors, when we're not around? Why are they successful? What are their secrets? Why don't they accept the truth of our religion? Maybe they secretly want to destroy us. Etc.

I think hatred in and of itself is the basis of all this. I just can't think of many other groups who have been the targets of such specific and prolific propaganda for centuries.

Like, throughout Europe, Russia, America, China, Africa, anti-Semitism looks largely the same, based on the same lies and prejudices. Lots of horrible hatred is regional, or between two groups. Anti-Semitism always seems bigger than that.

Josh I don't think that's actually true. You might superficially find some of the same stereotypes in China, for example, but you wouldn't find the same hostile feeling toward Jewish people as in, say, Tunisia.

Well, the hostility varies, for sure. But the propaganda persists, even in places with virtually no Jews! Or maybe especially in places with no Jews. And it really is global, isn't it? Is there any other minority group consistently maligned this way around the globe?

uh black people

oppression olympics not really necessary is it

skeptical that guy who does know who geert wilders is might not be expert in global racism he thinks he is

Well it's hard to think of such a small minority group that is at the same time so visible and has a presence in so many countries. Like what would even be a comparison point, Bahai? There are persecuted Christian minorities in many places in the world but Christians on the whole are a pretty damn large group worldwide. Muslim minorities are persecuted in many places as well, and there's certainly plenty of anti-Muslim propaganda.

I've never heard of this Chinese anti-semitism personally btw. ime most Asian countries' populations don't even know what Jews are.

xxp

I don't consider myself an expert in anything. I do consider this board more of a discussion, and not a debate. I learn things here all of the time. One of the first things I learned, many years ago, is that some people are just jerks. Including me, sometimes. But not always.

The only thing I've ever read about in China is the flip of that "Asians are good at math" kind of racism, i.e. "Jews are good with money, how can we learn to emulate them." I find it mostly harmless.

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2014/05/14/is-china-anti-semitic-one-jews-reflections/

It seems, yeah, largely based in ignorance, and not overt hatred. But there's still a number that believes the worst of the worst, like "18% thought they were “responsible for most of the world’s wars.”"

This one, from 2009, points out the curious, complicated lack of a religious basis in Asia for Jewish conspiracies:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/feb/06/judaism-race

(I didn't google their authors, so apologies if they were penned by more right wing politicians I don't know.)

So my mistake.

No problem. The pinning of European anti-Semitism on its Muslim populations just makes me very queasy. I don't know how aware Americans of the line peddled by guys like Wilders and, before him, Pim Fortuyn and now very common amongst Islamophobes about Muslims representing a threat to liberal values - you know, all those hard won freedoms that the precursors to Wilders fought tooth and nail against.

The problem with this "survey of anti-Semitic attitudes" business is that it's without context. If you ask Chinese people a list of targeted questions about attitudes toward Jews, you might get some negative answers, but if you're talking about what preoccupies people, it's going to be low on the list. I think a lot of people with "anti-Jewish" attitudes would probably fall into the category of this commenter:

Teacup

09 February 2009 10:15am

29

Is this from first hand experience? I can't speak for other countries, but Indians spend little time worrying about Jews per se and certainly don't go around spouting anti-Jewish stuff. Anti-Muslim, yes, anti-Jewish, no.. A great many are annoyed with the actions of the state of Israel, but that is like assuming that people were annoyed with the Bush administration because it was Christian.

However, the presence of the self-styled "Jewish state" and its actions, don't make good advertising.

Lets not confuse religion and politics.

Also the kind of questions that are asked often lead the responder to an "attitude."

"Do Jews have too much power?"
"Well, there do seem to be a lot of Jews in power now that you mention it, sure I guess so, why should one group have so much power?"

commenter otm

(a post I never thought I would make about anything lol)

Oh, there are all sorts of ways one can get those results. But the 2009 thing I linked to gets into more detail, and more interesting detail, imo.

Pim Fortuyn

This dude I've heard of.

I don't think I pinned European anti-Semitism on its Muslim population, just saying that it preceded it, as well as Israel, so obviously stems from other stuff as well as the most obvious stuff. Which includes some Muslim anti-Semitism, but I don't think anyone can quantify exactly how much and where it comes from, at least not as easily as one can source Islamophobia, given the number of people in powerful, public positions who are pretty blatant about it.

i own some ellen willis collections but i've never read this piece before - i think it's very good:
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/181449/willis-anti-anti-zionist

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/aug/17/sainsburys-removes-kosher-food-anti-israel-protesters

That's my local Sainsburys. The Kosher food was there when I went in 30 minutes ago.

bc they put it back or what?

It said in the article they were putting it back. I think somebody screwed up and they knew they screwed up so they fixed it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/21/opinion/deborah-e-lipstadt-on-the-rising-anti-semitism-in-europe.html

http://forward.com/articles/204493/jewish-student-at-temple-university-punched-at-pro/
http://forward.com/articles/204487/australian-jewish-school-evacuated-by-bomb-scare/

fuck this shit already

If they don't want to be targeted for being Jewish, maybe they should just stop being Jewish.

temple U! this is my fucking backyard.

I have Jewish family in Philly AND Australia.

that Philly thing doesn't read like a straight-up hate crime to me, a pro-palestinian group confronted by a dude from a right-wing pro-israeli group and the fists/insults flew...? not exactly shocking.