Is this anti-semitism?

Well, I don't want to project any intention onto you, but I think that on one hand, yes, muslims, like Jews, now face the feeling of always being "other" in Europe. On the other hand, that leaves off the second part of the analysis, the "stateless" part, where since Israel is not treated as a wholly legitimate state (and most of the Jews of Europe are not "from" Israel in the sense that a Moroccan immigrant is from Morocco), the Jews are both other and stateless. Not trying to say that's "worse" than the problems of Muslims in Europe, just different.

it does bother me tho that when a muslim commits a violent act, all my leftist friends become very concerned w/ islamophobic blowback, but when a jew is a victim of a violent act, they start talking about the culpability israel shares in generating violence against jews in the diaspora bc of the way they treat the palestinians. i'm sure it's a totally different phenomenon on the right (where it seems like a lot of right-wingers are willing to support jews if it lets them bash muslims), but i don't have really any right-wing friends. i'm a product of the american academy + liberal society so those are all the discourses i'm exposed to.

(xp) OK agreed, that passage just leapt out at me because it's precisely what is said by some about Muslims in Europe and I'm not sure Americans are aware of how often and how loudly it is said. That's all. I am shutting up on this subject forever. On ILX anyway.

In Queens, we're all other, there's no visibly dominant group. It's something I find fascinating every time I ride the subway or move through different neighborhoods.

Many muslim immigrants/refugees are stateless. Kurds, palestinians, sunni iranians or shia iraqis. It's a BIG problem in European populist politics, having signed on to conventions about treating stateless people respectfully.

Don't want to get involved in the discussion, because, true, this isn't the islamophobia thread, and this isn't the right time either, but just wanted to correct. It's still not quite the same as anti-semitism, and I'm shutting up as well.

those are good points

i admit i'm a little grossed out by netanyahu inviting european jews to come to israel, or at least the /way/ he did so.

but of course, "i'm a little grossed out by netanyahu" is something i could say, without qualification, at any time.

bibi is gross no doubt but he's not the reason why french jewish immigration is at such historical highs

yeah, but he's more than happy to exploit that for his own agenda

i think he sincerely believes that israel is the home of worldwide jewry - i don't think his agenda is necessarily more cynical than that

Well it's undeniable that he wants as many Jews to move to Israel as Israel can absorb, and to that end, he uses antisemitic incidents as arguments for Jews moving to Israel. I think it's impossible to determine how "cynical" or not this is, but he has maintained a pretty consistent lifelong commitment to the idea of Israel as a Jewish state, so it's not "cynical" inasmuch as it's toward an end he seems to truly believe in.

it's not necessarily cynical but it could be seen as pretty opportunist in the context of french leaders trying to say that they will do all they can to keep the jewish community safe.

yeah opportunist is a better word

it does bother me tho that when a muslim commits a violent act, all my leftist friends become very concerned w/ islamophobic blowback, but when a jew is a victim of a violent act, they start talking about the culpability israel shares in generating violence against jews in the diaspora bc of the way they treat the palestinians. i'm sure it's a totally different phenomenon on the right (where it seems like a lot of right-wingers are willing to support jews if it lets them bash muslims), but i don't have really any right-wing friends. i'm a product of the american academy + liberal society so those are all the discourses i'm exposed to.

I think one of the only practical ways to tackle the antisemitism found in corners of the left is to continually highlight the fact that there's a massive overlap between it and Islamophobia, they're not opposite points on a spectrum. Whether its the idea of a fifth column subverting national political values, the idea that they are clannish and exploit outsiders or simply the idea that they bear some kind of magical responsibility for events taking place hundreds of miles away involving people they have no direct connection to, the template is largely the same. The far-right shift from focus on Jewish people to Muslims is a change of emphasis rather than a change of policy. One of the most prescient responses to Murdoch's idiocy was David Baddiel saying:

People are right to rubbish Murdoch for his idiot tweet; perhaps soon they might stop asking all Jews to declare their position on Israel.

You'd hope that would make a few people think.

There are times when "declare your stance on Israel" from the left feels a little like "moderate muslims must denounce the attacks" from the right.

i agree that antisemitism and islamophobia have an overlap in Europe today (though i'd argue that the history of antisemitism suggests a much more complex phenomenon than islamphobia), but the problem here is more that "islamophobia" has become a cover for antisemitism in Islam, which is a huge and widespread problem. one way that the two are different is that antisemitism is famously a bigotry of power. islamophobia, or anti-black racism, relies on denigrating the civility, intelligence, morality of the subaltern group. antisemitism is a conspiracy theory about invisible jewish power. this is obv catnip for the left who love theories about power and subjugation. what's the famous line about antisemitism being the socialism of fools? lot of fools on the left today.

like i don't think you'll get a lot of traction on the left arguing that antisemitism is similar to islamophobia. islamophobia fits the post-colonial narrative of exploitation and discrimination. antisemitism, especially antisemitism from Islam, does not fit.

well, back when there were ghettos full of poor jews in europe, it was about more than a power conspiracy theory

even then tho it was a conspiracy theory about wealth + political control. that it was absurd to claim that jews, who were mostly poor and disenfranchised, were actually pulling all the strings didn't stop anything.

protocols was published in russia in 1903 and certainly russian jews were not wielding any significant power then

yeah mordy otm the two hatreds seem like very different phenomena. i think only in your hardcore 1488 types do they really coincide. "a massive overlap between [antisemitism] and Islamophobia"? i don't see it, not in the US anyway. maybe only in the neo-hard-right "red pill" internet spaces

well, all ethnic hatreds are different, but there is also the fear of an Islamic "rise to power" or "takeover" of Europe. Not the same kind of "behind the scenes conspiracy" fear, but definitely a power-related paranoia.

i kinda read the "islamic takeover of europe" as a kind of "barbarians at the gates" sort of thing

been seeing a lot of "je sui charlie martel" type talk in the past week...

i suppose there's a common thread of white paranoia underpinning both; in an earlier age this kind of outburst would not have been blamed on 'sharia':

https://twitter.com/roqchams/status/555432238087553024

also worth noting that a component of both is hatred of whites who are in on the conspiracy or appeasing the invader. breivik killed liberals, after all

i wonder if part of the problem is that the left's conception of post-colonialism is so superficial that they can't theorize muslims being victims of oppression in some circumstances and oppressors in others. you are either privileged or oppressed, so jews who sometimes move between categories - they have no idea how to handle them. just speaking off-the-cuff here i haven't given this idea a ton of thought.

There might be something to that, although i'd like to think that most of the left has more nuance the tendency to view people as blocs with a unified history / culture could lead in that direction.

The roots and expression of antisemitism are probably more complex but the populist scapegoating definitely overlaps in Europe, possibly less so in the US. The degree to which the tradition of antisemitism on the far right - from hardline conservatives to outright neo-Fascists - has shifted from agitating against Jewish people to agitating against Muslims, without changing philosophy, personnel or much of the rhetoric, points to that. With the growth of the far-right, in practical terms, there's a chance that there might be a leftist shift away from the abstract ideas about apportioning geopolitical blame to more practical drawing of alliances against a more solid threat.

don't those far right types basically hold that the jews are still evil but islam is a bigger problem for the moment?

I think they all do at a fundamental level but some, like the BNP, had laughably attempted to recruit Jewish / Hindu members.

It would be interesting in the French context whether the rise of the FN saw more Muslim and Jewish groups working together in opposition.

i'm not sure there is any bigotry this psychotic tbh:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/attacks-blamed-on-shape-shifting-jews/

There are times when "declare your stance on Israel" from the left feels a little like "moderate muslims must denounce the attacks" from the right.

― walid foster dulles (man alive), Wednesday, January 14, 2015 1:04 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i've never gotten that from folks "on the left" but then again i'm a hermit w/o many friends so

i think he sincerely believes that israel is the home of worldwide jewry

I'm on the fence as to whether he sincerely believes that or not, but he is definitely saying it, and I sincerely believe it is a wrong and kind of terrible thing to say or believe. I am committed to Zionism but not to the abandonment of the Diaspora, which is my home and the home of my ancestors as far back as history records. Shame on Netanyahu for denying that French Jews are fully French, that American Jews are fully American, etc. To answer the governing question of this thread, I don't think it's anti-Semitic to say that, but I think it makes common cause with anti-Semitism.

did you see the link i posted of the french jews celebrating bibi's arrival and then singing la marseillaise when he was done speaking? i thought it spoke nicely to this dichotomy of needing a homeland, but also feeling like a citizen of where you reside.

http://tabletmag.com/scroll/188225/two-scenes-from-the-grand-synagogue-of-paris

where are all the jews who are pro-israel and anti-netanyahu? i mean, i'm not opposed to the state of israel but if netanyahu came and spoke in my 'hood i'd have to resist the urge to spit on him.

i don't get the sense that bibi is significantly worse than many other PM's - even recent PM's - and a lot of the hate is personal not political

did you see the link i posted of the french jews celebrating bibi's arrival and then singing la marseillaise when he was done speaking? i thought it spoke nicely to this dichotomy of needing a homeland, but also feeling like a citizen of where you reside.

― Mordy, Wednesday, January 14, 2015 4:29 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

oh that is cool, I missed that, actually.

CW is he's been a more openly partisan actor in US politics than others. i suppose an israeli might say that goes both ways

I read that, Mordy, and it's just not where I am. When they say

"We are not afraid because we know, whether overtly or in a dark half-acknowledged corner of our minds, that there is one state in the world—however imperfect it is in some of its particulars—where we and our children will be welcome, and whose government will do its best to protect us, with all the force at its disposal"

The Jews, as a people, need a homeland; if I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be a Zionist. But my family and I do not personally need a homeland. At least, we don't need one beyond the one we already have. And I don't like Netanyahu or Tablet telling me what my true feelings, in a "dark half-acknowledged corner of my mind" about this are. I know what my feelings are.

where are all the jews who are pro-israel and anti-netanyahu?

Are you aware that there are millions of them living and voting in Israel?

I'm not sure what "pro-Israel" means. Is anyone who doesn't think it should just cease existing at once "pro-Israel"? If so, I am pro-Israel and anti-Netanyahu.

I wrote this on fb this morning: Ultimately the problem with Israel-agnostic Jewish American leftists is that they're too comfortable in the US. They've forgotten that not all Jews throughout the world are as safe as we are here, and they have the hubris to believe that the ways things are now are the ways they will always be. I have a ton of hakaras hatov to the US, but it's important to remember imo that living here puts you in a bit of a bubble. I think it's true - and I do buy the argument that the existence of Israel has a protective effect on Jews in the diaspora as well. It's a very complicated question because really there's only one other country in the world besides Israel where Jews live safely, en masse and it's 'coincidentally' the state that backs Israel. Idk if you live in the US and it could be you're in, idk, Belgium and you feel totally at home w/ no nervousness and need for a backup plan. But history says that - despite the unprecedented tolerance Jews have in the US (that will hopefully last forever) - it's a good thing to have a backup plan. And I say this as someone who never plans to move from the US.

At least that's how I understand the 'dark corner of the mind' assertion.

where are all the jews who are pro-israel and anti-netanyahu?
Are you aware that there are millions of them living and voting in Israel?

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Wednesday, January 14, 2015 3:52 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

um, that was kind of my point. i guess that article had its own answer as to why all these french jews were cheering netanyahu. i wouldn't cheer that fucker in a million years.

it might help you to know that i am jewish.

Ultimately the problem with Israel-agnostic Jewish American leftists is that they're too comfortable in the US. They've forgotten that not all Jews throughout the world are as safe as we are here, and they have the hubris to believe that the ways things are now are the ways they will always be. I have a ton of hakaras hatov to the US, but it's important to remember imo that living here puts you in a bit of a bubble

that probably describes me pretty well, actually.

(who thinks the jewish homeland could just be around Avenue A)

But history says that - despite the unprecedented tolerance Jews have in the US (that will hopefully last forever) - it's a good thing to have a backup plan.

I do live in the United States. I don't think Israel is the backup plan for us. I think we're the backup plan for them.

Or another way to put it: what's more likely? That the US of 2050 is an anti-Semitic swamp where my children and grandchildren can't live? Or that the Israel of 2050 is an Orthodox-dominated religious state where my children and grandchildren can't live?

I would flip that and say that it's troubling, if sort of understandable, that Jewish existence should be predicated on feeling threatened as the default mode of being. And I think that the context of the holocaust is causing the treatment of incidents that do not actually threaten the existence of Jews as a community in various European countries as though they do. In other words, some racist attacks against Jews is not the same thing as being on the verge of another holocaust. Some racist attacks against Jews will always happen. Some racist attacks against Jews happen within Israel too. I don't accept at all the idea that this "troubling rise in antisemitism" is swelling to some inevitable crest in mass atrocity, in fact I find little evidence of such.