Matt Taibbi

So yeah, it feels to me as if Taibbi is looking at the one house on the block that isn't currently on fire and going 'it's all just smoke!'

the boredom you inflict causes piles

Didn't you promise to fuck off if I persisted? It's, like, half the reason I keep writing...

it is funny to see the things about the media's coverage of Trump-Russia he spotlights playing out in real time. I definitely caught Maddow last night very forcefully saying "AS YET"

I don't recall who said this but it was noted that if Watergate happened in today's polarized climate it would be a footnote in partisan battles. And we're basically seeing proof of that right now. The evidence of collusion is already there, Manafort, plus Stone openly bragging about it. How many times have Trump's people and Trump himself been caught lying about this particular issue? You know it's almost like there's a different standard in place.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/RMFHgVN_pcg/hqdefault.jpg

if it comes out that the Trump team colluded in the hacking of the DNC (which would be the real Watergate parallel, though obviously even more egregious because of the participation of a foreign power) it would not be a footnote, I feel pretty certain of that.

I'm not sure about that, I've already heard the "but the stuff in the emails is true" take a lot already from people on the right and left. Until they started getting pressed and lied about it (and the other weird ways Trump admin people won't even make the bare minimum criticisms of Russia) I always found the idea that Trump-Putin's gov happened to have mutual goals they went about separately more believable than technical collusion; coordinating seemed like an unnecessary extra step. Troubling that Taibbi (who is being largely reasonable here) references Greenwald on this though, who's been kind of been exposed as transparently coming from a place of not wanting it to be true.

i don't even get what greenwald's deal is anymore. if his whole thing is speaking truth to power why is he all about speaking truth to the party that has none on behalf of the administration that has all of it? i understand why he spent the obama years attacking obama - bc he was the potus. but it's like he's still stuck in that gear and hasn't realized yet that the world has changed.

"none"

yes correct, none. they control none of the branches of government.

not the same as "no power" but buhbye

you're a fucking idiot

Greenwald posts and writes quite a lot of anti-Trump articles and tweets. Go fuck Bibi.

yes Bibi, he has a lot to do w/ anything anyone is discussing here, dumbshit

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/708288326063759361

so off topic but since it has been brought up i did notice early on that mondoweiss types were ridiculously optimistic about trump being good for palestine - a notion of which i think they've since been disabused. left-wing affection for trump tho is clearly a thing among a number of denominations and equally bizarre + self-deluding for all of them.

primary issue w/greenwald has always been how constrained he is by omidyar's interests and activities and political (and deep state) links

that's a thing i'd really like taibbi to talk about -- but when he and pareene left that building they had to sign an NDA (or more likely had already signed one when they entered that building)

(secondary issue w/greenwald is -- for example by contrast w/taibbi -- he's a not-great writer who's landed at a publication where he gets to call the shots with anyone editing him) (sub-editor talking here, so pinch salt at me, but i find him a very frustrating read) (taibbi's a terrific read even when he's probably wrong -- which i don't think he is here -- and very much worth listening to russia and putin) (which greenwald isn't -- GG's grasp of politics and political history outside the last decade in the US is thin) (he may be good on brazil, i'm not competent to judge: my teeth just grind when he's talking about the UK, which he knows fuck all about)

Maybe Trump didn't plan this, and it's just coincidence that where we are now – dueling accusations of criminality, investigations instead of debates, jail promised to the loser – is what politics would look like in a WWE future where government is a for-profit television program. And maybe it's not the Trump effect that has Democrats so completely focused on him instead of talking to their voters, a mistake they also made last election season.

Still, the Russia story is the ultimate in high-stakes politics. If proof emerges that Trump and Putin colluded, it could topple this presidency. But if no such evidence comes out, the gambit could massively backfire, validating Trump's accusations of establishment bias and media overreach.

In the short term, however, there's no question that Russia is bloodying Trump politically. An evening speech during the Pruitt hearings by Minnesota Sen. Amy Klobuchar hits the typical notes.

She cleverly references a trip she made to Ukraine with McCain and Graham, both owners of key votes in future legislative battles. She then goes all out rhetorically, hinting at bombshell future revelations: blackmail, betrayal, treason.

"If we are committed to ensuring that Russia's hacking invasions and blackmail do not go unchecked," she says, "we must do everything in our power to uncover the full extent of this interference in our own political system... ."

This goes on all night. Democrats stick it out until morning, only to wake up to find that two of their own caucus members from coal country have crossed over to give Pruitt their support.

Their cave-in shows that the power of Trump's base extends even to Democrats. The two senators, Heitkamp of North Dakota and Manchin of West Virginia, both face re-election in 2018 and hail from states where Trump won handily. So much for throwing their bodies under tank treads: The Democrats can't even convince their members to forget about re-election long enough to save the EPA. The ayes have it, 52-46, handing environmental enforcement to a man likely bent on a campaign of inaction, portending perhaps a return now to the good old days of the Cuyahoga River spontaneously catching fire.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/taibbi-on-trump-the-destroyer-w473144

His major point seems true enough, that if the Democrats only frame their position in terms of opposing Trump, they will make their staunch base very happy, but at the cost of appearing as if Trump is the only thing they think about or care about. The voters who only pay scant attention and don't strongly identify with either party only want to hear about what they care about, which boils down to whatever they fear at the moment, which can be job security, medical bills, or free-floating anxiety about the whole world going to hell. To them Trump doesn't automatically personify all things bad and disgusting, so opposing Trump doesn't serve as a proxy for whatever the Democrats' "real" policy is.

It's not like this is a new thing. I can't tell you how many shrill "can you believe what Boehner is doing????" fundraising emails I got from democrats. It's so lazy, and smacks of the same tactics that the GOP used against Obama (which are now backfiring now that they have to govern).

on Rooshen feeding frenzy

"If the party's leaders really believe that Russian intervention is anywhere in the top 100 list of reasons why some 155 million eligible voters (out of 231 million) chose not to pull a lever for Hillary Clinton last year, they're farther along down the Purity of Essence nut-hole than Mark Warner."

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/taibbi-putin-derangement-syndrome-arrives-w474771

what an utterly moronic take.

you read that quickly

he's a Putin stooge, right

you got me.

These Chapo/Teen Racket takes that somehow looking into the Russia scandal equals Booker 2020 are getting tiresome. Trump leaves a stick lying around you pick it up and beat the guy he pays to take his beatings with it.

Focusing on Russia is pretty stupid, politically, as is the emoluments clause stuff.

Both have way less traction than focusing on the fucked up shit that Trump and the GOP are definitely and openly doing and neither will go anywhere with the GOP controlling Congress anyway.

The Russia stuff needs to be investigated strenuously, but it shouldn't be the central focus of the party. As the investigation progresses it will become more apparent if the scandal has the necessary depth or substance to wound or weaken Trump. For now, I'd prefer they focus on clamoring for an infrastructure bill, because the Republicans are going to be talking all about tax cuts and the public is not really that into tax cuts for the rich, but do see the value in infrastructure. Trump talked up this issue in the campaign, but the Dems can steal this issue while Trump is sidetracked and distracted, which seems to be his perpetual state atm.

This entire argument (Russia is an important issue to attack Trump on! No, stupid, focus on the real issues!) is rote and dumb

Corruption is corruption is corruption. There are plenty of people and plenty of places to attack this administration and thank goodness, because it merits a lot of attacking.

Oh, I was going to post that article, but then search was down and I couldn't be bothered. But it's spectacularly stupid, and his weird attack against people thinking the DNC and Podesta hacks, which was in the news for months, might have influenced the election just a tiny bit, is one of the stupider ones.

This is the most amazing one, though:

Moreover, even those who detest Trump with every fiber of their being must see the dangerous endgame implicit in this entire line of thinking. If the Democrats succeed in spreading the idea that straying from the DNC-approved candidate – in either the past or the future – is/was an act of "unwitting" cooperation with the evil Putin regime, then the entire idea of legitimate dissent is going to be in trouble.

Imagine it's four years from now (if indeed that's when we have our next election). A Democratic candidate stands before the stump, and announces that a consortium of intelligence experts has concluded that Putin is backing the hippie/anti-war/anti-corporate opposition candidate.

Or, even better: that same candidate reminds us "what happened last time" when people decided to vote their consciences during primary season. It will be argued, in seriousness, that true Americans will owe their votes to the non-Putin candidate. It would be a shock if some version of this didn't become an effective political trope going forward.

He is somehow warning libs that if they go down this path, they... will have an effective attack against leftists in four years? How is that supposed to influence any centrists to stop the investigations? Shouldn't that warning have come back in July, at a time where it was already pretty obvious the DNC leaks were from the Russians, and shouldn't that warning have been sent to Sanders' people: 'Hey guys, don't let your legitimate dissent become mixed up with Russian hacks, it might backfire in the long run...'

It's just faux concern trying to mask that he is preaching to the choir. Libs are evil and deranged, while leftists are legitimate and driven by honest enthusiasm. Every argument is based on that worldview.

Taibbi referencing Michael Tracey and Zaid Jilani as credible reporters means he's really fucking sad.

The tendency to dismiss the Russian story to the extent from some quarters (given that it's unequivocally damaged the administration at this point and continues to do so) makes their agenda seem pretty blatantly "anti-mainstream dem". Like, listening to them only you wouldn't have any idea that Michael Flynn had to resign over it.

Idk. I was an enthusiastic Hillary voter but I also think the Democrats need to take some responsibility for sucking so much. They lost a presidential election to Donald fucking Trump. And it wasn't just her fault -- it is a failure of the party overall that they couldn't speak effectively to the issues of the day, which contributed to low minority turnout and white working class defections. "Russia" is in some ways a scapegoat -- there is always nonsense floating around; it's the candidate's job to set the record straight.

Is it possible trumps undeniable Russian associations present an actual current danger after his election that exceed and are different to those which were related to him overcoming a mediocre candidate with shitloads of electoral baggage?

I'm sure some people will make the argument when battles for leadership/direction take place but I don't buy the idea that "Russia" will measurably be seen to "vindicate" HRC/Dem campaign failures. The base of the party wants to move further left, that's not going to roll back. I don't think it will happen but if it really becomes Trump's undoing, the argument becomes "hey you lost to these extremely corrupt people". Nevertheless if you think the Trump admin is dangerous there's no argument for not supporting an investigation, especially at this point.

and *who* is arguing there shouldn't be an investigation? Many fewer ppl than are arguing "BernieBros (TM) were Russian dupes."

Creating stupid arguments, however few people actually agree with them, is the very basis of the multi-billion dollar straw man manufacturing industry.

x-post: That might be because some BernieBros were duped by the Russians, while nobody in their right mind could look at the evidence and think there was nothing to investigate.

You have the weirdest way of dealing with facts and figures, Morbs.

You have the weirdest way of dealing with facts and figures, Morbs.

2 + 2 = HILLARY

Everything that pulls political attention and discussion away from government policies and actions, and toward backward-looking blame-casting, is a harmful distraction.

I again refer to a recent LGM post on this topic:

The purpose of the leaks and how Wikileaks framed them was precisely to sucker journalists into covering anodyne behavior as if it was scandalous. . . . It’s very hard to imagine even Clinton haters as obsessive as Fang and Greenwald writing a story about Hillary Clinton engaging in completely unexceptionable media engagement strategies any minimally competent campaign engages in if the story had been obtained from conventional sources, let alone hyping their “findings” as if they had he 21st century Pentagon Papers on their hands.

To the extent that the positioning of "OMG the Clinton campaign engages in public relations!!" as "scandalous" succeeded in turning off/turning away potential Clinton voters or allowing an already hostile media to say, "See, THE CLINTON BODY COUNT IS REAL" then a little finger-pointing is perfectly appropriate.

Everything that pulls political attention and discussion away from government policies and actions, and toward backward-looking blame-casting, is a harmful distraction.

Given that impeachment is impossible based on my understanding of the dynamics, I am inclined to agree. But if past interactions clearly reflect current/future policy obligations by trumpco, it's slightly scarier than the also clear facts they are anti-democratic, almost purely self-interested, inexperienced, uneducated morans, and incidentally closely allied with groups that actually are even worse.

they're a harmful distraction TO TRUMP, eg they are worth it

eg = ergo

XPOST OTM. It's amazing that a lot of people still don't understand (or disingenuously pretend not to understand) how the leaks function as propaganda and that it leads to the spread of misinformation. It's beyond depressing to hear someone say "but the information in the emails was true!"

replace "reflect" with "reveal"
xpost

where's the tax returns?

shakey otm. the russia stuff is pretty stupid but it is definitely paying off, dems should continue to hammer at it

"and *who* is arguing there shouldn't be an investigation"

That's generally the Intercept audience and left twitter's feeling on it. It's actually not uncommon to see it compared to birtherism. Defining the issue as "hysteria" and repeatedly pointing to marginal conspiracists as fully representative of the Dems on it might have something to do with that.

you are aware there is a spectrum of "Let's investigate" positions, yes? One end being Louise Batshit Mensch.