¡In-de-pen-dén-cia! - The Catalonia Independence Referendum

i spent most of my childhood family holidays in catalonia and i love it there - i've been back a lot as an adult too

kinda thrilled at the prospect of catalonian independence but lbi's comment about francoist spain never going away is otm - those tensions seem to have been repressed but never really resolved

How not a poll

this is affective judgement of course but what's most prominent in my mind are an extreme prejudice against secession and the fact that justin raimondo and julian assange are strongly behind catalan independence...

are there decent reads somewhere digging into the underlying situation?

oh and viktor orban

Good lord... We're talking about Catalan independence and you base your opinion on the contrary of what Assange thinks? Jfc.

He's got nothing to do with this, should stay out of this, and has nothing to add. Assange probably is for it for all the wrong reasons.

i don't follow european news particularly closely, nor assange, even! i don't have an opinion, yet.

I hear you. And it's pretty difficult to point you to one tell-all source about this. Guardian and Politico are covering this pretty "flat", ie mostly objectively, "all sides" etc. Which is totally fair. But still doesn't tell the whole story.

part of the same polity since the late 15th century, so like hwat is really driving this? what classes in catalonia are in favor? etc

It's rooted in the very fragmented history of Spain, which is a made-up, artificial country to begin with. Basques and Catalans are not Spanish, have never felt Spanish, and were never given the chance to feel Spanish, because the Franco regime suppressed them, violently (but also long, long before that by the made-up monarchy). Those regions are part of a country they do not belong to, do not relate with, don't share a language with, and do not want to be a part of. Why now? Because they rallied around and got it together, finally. And support for independence is from all classes.

there is a fairly evenly distributed support for independence among the classes in Catalunya. The middle and lower-middle class would probably be the area of strongest support, probably for partly demographic reasons - a larger proportion of middle-class people living in Catalunya are from Catalan backgrounds than working-class people - where there is a larger proportion of immigrants.

independence is supported by various political parties which range from centre-right to far-left.

i support substate national movements as a rule unless they're trying to create an ethno-state

A strong sense of national identity is probably the biggest driver behind every movement for independence. Economics rarely plays much of a role. The Catalans definitely feel they are 'other' than the rest of Spain, as do the Basques. When you get down to it, it's just a much-delayed continuation of the breakup of the Hapsburg Empire.

Otm.

extreme prejudice against secession

Is this because the most prominent example of ppl who want secession in the US is crazy right-wing racists? 'Cause that's not really the case with lots of independence movements around the world...

despite my instinctive & uninformed dislike of the spanish nationalist right, given the polling this will only be divisive in catalonia, right? anything less than about two thirds won't settle it decisively & then you've got a brexit situation where the far enemy is forgotten as vitriol is expended on nearby traitors/collaborators etc.

Those regions are part of a country they do not belong to, do not relate with, don't share a language with, and do not want to be a part of.

I don't think it's that clear-cut tbh. There's no majority support for Basque independence, for example.

One should also be aware of the corruption within the Catalan government (Pujol, Mas etc.) which has been going on for decades and is often cited as a motivation for independence (to avoid persecution).

(sorry if I'm expressing myself badly but English is not my first language)

One should also be aware of the corruption within the Catalan government (Pujol, Mas etc.) which has been going on for decades and is often cited as a motivation for independence (to avoid persecution).

Cited by who?

Yes, citation needed on who cited it.

I'd also argue there is a majority for Basque independence, depending on how that would be shaped.

Are you from any of these regions, perhaps?

for example:

http://www.abc.es/espana/catalunya/abci-proces-corrupcion-201706060606_noticia.html

http://www.vozpopuli.com/porque_nada_es_casual/independencia-salvoconducto-impunidad_7_998070185.html

there is definitely not a majority for basque independence in euskal herria, with many people in those regions not even considering themselves basque and support for basque independence extremely low in many areas, especially the french basque country

come on groovemaaan abc is a right-wing rag and if we're talking about corruption and escaping prosecution it seems you can do it quite well within the spanish state - especially if you run it. PP constantly involved in criminality with near impunity.

i have catalonian family living in Barcelona and the surrounding areas . I was just there for La Diada and the last three before that . Even within the family the attitude goes from hardcore independents who are definitly the vocal majority to the other who quietly sit there in fear that this will all be a huge mistake.

i support substate national movements as a rule unless they're trying to create an ethno-state

― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, September 18, 2017 5:14 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Is this because the most prominent example of ppl who want secession in the US is crazy right-wing racists? 'Cause that's not really the case with lots of independence movements around the world...

― Daniel_Rf, Tuesday, September 19, 2017 5:54 AM (five hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

uhh what do you mean, "unless" isn't that what they are all trying to do?? scots nationalism, all of it?

yes the US experience is a strong influence. also that the product of nationalist secession would be weaker and more dependent states. i don't think it's a priori bad, i'm just v leery on the concept of "self-determination" being applied at the level of an ethno-linguistic group. look i just don't think the catalans or the scots can claim the same kind of oppression from a central state as say the timorese or south sudanese.

isn't english nationalism, while a different beast, itself pretty sus? lega nord?

there's a minor, half-joke of a movement for californian secession. it's a fake solution to real problems, a fantasy of abdication from doing real political work.

There's a massive difference between imperialism and self-determination.

Also, maybe someone who admits they don't know much about European politics shouldn't actually be making proclamations about who has been historically oppressed, nor to what degree?

scottish nationalism is not ethnocentric. the scottish government and scottish pro-independence voters - who are predominantly politically left-wing - want to be part of the eu and have a less restrictive vision for immigration than is the norm in the rest of the United Kingdom. Support for Scottish independence is stronger among people born and raised in scotland than people born outside - especially those born in the rest of the UK - regardless of ethnic background

death to the ethno-state, bring back the ottoman empire

Most of the out and out bigots in Scotland are waving Union Jacks btw. We supplied quite a lot of those to the USA back in the day.

... bigots that is.

there is definitely not a majority for basque independence in euskal herria, with many people in those regions not even considering themselves basque and support for basque independence extremely low in many areas, especially the french basque country

― -_- (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, September 19, 2017 4:30 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is true and I failed to address this. Gipúzcoa surely is in favor, but is alone in this. Viscaya and certainly Navarre do not desire this. French Basques also don't want to.

yeah this is what i would have said if my brain worked a bit better and i could remember anything i ever read :)

If we'd try really hard, together we could bring the competence of one man to the table here :)

look i just don't think the catalans or the scots can claim the same kind of oppression from a central state as say the timorese or south sudanese.

I don't really think they need to, is the thing - being culturally and politically distinct enough that the majority of the population wants it seems reason enough for me, what with nation states being products of contingency in the first place.

And yeah it doesn't really map onto ethnic categories in most modern European examples, society's far too globalized.

Police have raided Catalan ministries this morning and the postal service last night in an attempt to get hold of all the voting cards.

They were also checking the books and administration, as they feel every cent of public money spent on the referendum is illegal funding.

This is going to get so, so nasty. Heard a commentator on Catalan tv say he expects the referendum will take place - as in, people will cast a vote, somehow - but Spain will actively, and physically, try to disrupt it.

you know what really reduces support for independence movements?

Heh otm.

This seems pretty fucked, in a way that won't end well (is my trenchant analysis)

Most of the out and out bigots in Scotland are waving Union Jacks btw. We supplied quite a lot of those to the USA back in the day.

I think a few got lost, do ye have a return postal address?

https://www.nationalia.info/new/11003/thousands-in-streets-after-spanish-military-police-arrests-top-officials-over-independence

I think a few got lost, do ye have a return postal address?

It'll have an Ayrshire postcode but, no thanks, they cause enough problems when they come over here on the 12th of July or to watch Rangers games.

The stupidity of the Spanish government's response to all this beggars belief, though, according to my Catalan workmate, Rajoy is famously an ignoramus of almost Trumpian dimensions.

Rajoy is ridiculed a lot - rightfully so - because he comes with one-liners that are supposed to/according to him, profound, when in fact their utter dumb and illogical. "A plate is a plate and a glass is a glass" being one of the most referenced. No-one knows what he meant.

(ok that last one isn't technically "illogical", but you get my drift)

Catalans find this especially annoying as they're the ones propping up the rest of Spain, economically, or so I've been led to believe.

this bit is what makes it seem kind of odd to me that so many UK leftists are gung-ho behind Catalan independence - wouldn't the result be more wealth being concentrated in this relatively prosperous region/less wealth being redistributed to poorer regions?

It's what matters most to people, I reckon. Catalonia culturally is very different from Spain, and in recent times always wanted independence. It was bombed by Mussolini with support from Franco during the civil war. It was oppressed culturally, linguistically and politically under Franco. Their own president was executed by the regime at Montjuic.

If you take all that, I think most left people would argue that enough is enough and they should no longer be oppressed, and allowed to have a say on their future. I think that's how most people look at it.

Besides, independence in the short term will probably be very costly anyway. They'll have to neg their way into the EU.

I just cannot see Rajoy allowing it. He'd literally go to war over this, I fear.

As tensions increase ahead of the vote, economist and CUP activist Pau Llonch and Izquierda Unida MP Alberto Garzón discuss how the Left should approach the question of Catalan self-determination.

Interesting piece up on Jacobin

cool i'll check that out. jacobin's non-US affairs pieces have often been bad but i've done enough grousing herein!!

The two writers engaging in conversation are both Catalan though :)

Madrid announced it is seizing all power and de facto nationalizing the Catalan police Mossos, replacing it with their own Guardia Civil. Catalan PM just said they won't allow it and Mossos will continue to work.

Jesus

bump for greater visibility. this is tense shit.

Truly a king of all the people. Can't say I'm surprised, but this was fierce yo. Ludo otm.

I don't think people care a lot about the king. They've had their share of scandals like every other monarchy etc. It's probably the shock of seeing him choose sides, not even trying to balance things a bit. It's for the best to know where he stands tho.

Spain are playing on Friday too, could be interesting.

whom better to give lessons on democracy than uh...the king https://t.co/qiWU5TUu3Y

— KRANG TEEN NELSON (@KrangTNelson) October 3, 2017

Independence declared in the Catalan parliament.

beat me to it.

a couple of weeks too late I'd say, at least, for the momentum of the movement.

Anway, we'll see how much jail time Puigdemont will do. Ecuador might lend a helping hand again, I guess.

Up to 30 years of jail time possible iirc. No way Madrid will hold back.

this is going to be very messy i feel

senate in Madrid votes for direct rule of Catalunya

The independent Catalan State in 1934 lasted about 10 hours, and lead to 74 people being killed. Let's hope it doesn't come to anything like that, but I wouldn't bet on anything tbh

we were very close to moving there last year. feeling pretty good about our final decision to say here at this point .

here's to good feelings

the in-laws seem to be having fun atm
https://streamable.com/155yi

Puigdemont and people from parliament will probably be arrested. But for scope: there are 300,000 civil servants alone. Good luck to Madrid trying to get them to do what you want.

i really am worried about bloodshed.

Obviously NATO and/or the EU will step in NB sarcasm

Sadly otm. It's the same meaningless 'pls to be civil kay amigos? bye lol'.

is open warfare a possibility/likelihood? I mean I can see the Madrid gov't sending in troops/police and doing some martial law shit, but do the Catalonians actually have arms they could take up? would we be looking at some kind guerilla insurgency?

the mossos d'esquadra - catalan police force - are divided on issue of independence and estranged from the spanish guardia civil

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia-mossos-analy/demoralized-and-divided-inside-catalonias-police-force-idUSKBN1CT2MT

there are no paramilitary orgs

yet

getting a paramilitary org together takes some doing mind, and usually requires both foreign sponsorship and a concentrated urban, working-class base in specific geographical areas which become strongholds (catalunya doesn't really have this)

Demonstrations in Barcelona today for unity with Spain... 300,000 people according to the Guardia Urbana, 1.3 million according to organisers/supporters. Sounds a large turnout whatever the true figure.

I've been really struggling to clarify my thoughts on the situation lately, after discussions with my Spanish teachers and my Spanish partner have questioned some of my previous conceptions.

Everyone's seems to have forgotten about this but the regional election count is on.

i haven't forgotten.

seems there will probably be a spanish nationalist majority.

My Catalan colleague was extremely disappointed that I'd forgotten :(

(xp) I would expect so.

didnt forget (je me souviens?)

but there is not much that catalonians can do i fear

well apparently I'm wrong. there will likely be a pro-independence majority.

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171221/433800930490/elecciones-catalanas-encuesta-cierre-urna.html

though Ciudadanos (new "centrist" spanish nationalist party that has emerged in the last few years and became the main spanish nationalist party in catalunya) will be the party with most votes/seats

Let's wait and see.

Def not forgotten, just didn't have any time left to post abt here. Been in touch with a lot of Catalan friends about it, too.

It seems to close to call yet. Exit poll had pro-indep losing a couple of seats. Wait and see otm.

looks like it happened. independence parties will still have a majority, though with 2 less seats. Cs the biggest party. With the surprise on the nationalist side being that Junts per Catalunya got more seats than ERC.

if the spanish government had anything about them they would allow a binding referendum, free the nationalist prisoners, and watch as independence narrowly failed at the ballot box. this thing could be more or less done and dusted in a year.

watch while they do the opposite

"With more than 99% of votes counted, the pro-independence parties Together for Catalonia, Republican Left of Catalonia and Popular Unity were together on course to win a total of 70 seats, giving them a majority."

sorry didn't read last posts before posting

Some of the footage being posted online is truly horrifying.

warning: this video is upsetting.

Barcelone: la police espagnole sur la sellette pour ses violences contre les manifestants https://t.co/q9H2tbZkg1 @denterd pic.twitter.com/4YeSW6VDyI

— L'important (@Limportant_fr) October 19, 2019

holy shit at that dude managing to maintain his composure while being followed down the street by a gang of cops battering the fuck out of his legs

Ten armed Spanish policemen beating simultaneously an unarmed Catalan. Tonight it has been a carnage. #HelpCatalonia pic.twitter.com/07autW19iB

— Help Catalonia 🎗 (@CataloniaHelp2) October 18, 2019

fucking fascists

The Spanish PM @sanchezcastejon expelled by the Health Staff from the Barcelona’s hospital where he tried to do a performance with a policeman injured. Outside too hundreds call him a criminal pic.twitter.com/W5kfZmdchw

— Help Catalonia 🎗 (@CataloniaHelp2) October 21, 2019

Shocking scenes in Barcelona tonight.

Police clashing with demonstrators, and being completely overwhelmed.

pic.twitter.com/fesQIFwwAH

— Joshua Potash 🆘 (@JoshuaPotash) October 27, 2019

hey, people are having a drink, let's attack them

Una altra actuació entranyable de @mossos
Res a dir? pic.twitter.com/gBNAOP7BFw

— Roger Vidal 🎗️ (@RogerVidalColl) October 27, 2019

Fascists off the leash.