¡In-de-pen-dén-cia! - The Catalonia Independence Referendum

Rajoy is ridiculed a lot - rightfully so - because he comes with one-liners that are supposed to/according to him, profound, when in fact their utter dumb and illogical. "A plate is a plate and a glass is a glass" being one of the most referenced. No-one knows what he meant.

(ok that last one isn't technically "illogical", but you get my drift)

Catalans find this especially annoying as they're the ones propping up the rest of Spain, economically, or so I've been led to believe.

this bit is what makes it seem kind of odd to me that so many UK leftists are gung-ho behind Catalan independence - wouldn't the result be more wealth being concentrated in this relatively prosperous region/less wealth being redistributed to poorer regions?

It's what matters most to people, I reckon. Catalonia culturally is very different from Spain, and in recent times always wanted independence. It was bombed by Mussolini with support from Franco during the civil war. It was oppressed culturally, linguistically and politically under Franco. Their own president was executed by the regime at Montjuic.

If you take all that, I think most left people would argue that enough is enough and they should no longer be oppressed, and allowed to have a say on their future. I think that's how most people look at it.

Besides, independence in the short term will probably be very costly anyway. They'll have to neg their way into the EU.

I just cannot see Rajoy allowing it. He'd literally go to war over this, I fear.

As tensions increase ahead of the vote, economist and CUP activist Pau Llonch and Izquierda Unida MP Alberto Garzón discuss how the Left should approach the question of Catalan self-determination.

Interesting piece up on Jacobin

cool i'll check that out. jacobin's non-US affairs pieces have often been bad but i've done enough grousing herein!!

The two writers engaging in conversation are both Catalan though :)

Madrid announced it is seizing all power and de facto nationalizing the Catalan police Mossos, replacing it with their own Guardia Civil. Catalan PM just said they won't allow it and Mossos will continue to work.

Jesus

bump for greater visibility. this is tense shit.

It's terrifying. I'm following everything about this, obv heavily invested in this bcz of my Basque adventure, many friends from there going to Barcelona for this in solidarity. And then there's the Kurdish ref, with my Kurdish gf being a big supporter, voice abt it in national media.

And then this weekend I'm trying to finish an essay about the end of autonomy after 513 years, coming January 1st, of my own minority. My head is spinning.

Are there any English language news outlets reporting this fully? If so please link. Preferably unbiased straightforward reporting but maybe that's too much to ask in this day and age?

The ft has been pretty good but paywalled.

The Guardian's been decent as well on the day to day stuff, but ofcourse for all the minor details following a live blog from a Spanish/Catalan newspaper is best.

Good (albeit brief) rundown of how things came to be, from 2003 on, here

saw video recently of masked spanish nationalist goons invading and assaulting a catalan press conference. untranslated, so unsure of the details. ugly shit.

Good (albeit brief) rundown of how things came to be, from 2003 on, here

― Le Bateau Ivre, Tuesday, September 26, 2017 3:26 AM (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that is good

what would happen to the Balearics if Catalonia ever got independence?

they are part of els països catalans and many catalan nationalists would like them to be part of an independent catalunya. the proposed independence movement atm though would be creating an independent state out of the current autonomous community of catalunya

but catalan nationalism is actually a fringe ideology on the balearics

📊 OCTOBER 1 #REFERENDUM POLLING DATA
ELECTORAL ROLL: 5,343,358 voters
2,315 POLLING STATIONS

— Catalan Government (@catalangov) September 29, 2017

Madrid wants to close the airspace of Catalonia on Sunday. Might not like pics of thousands in the streets idk.

Police firing rubber bullets, 38 injured.

thank god the EU is trying to do something about this

I'm so tired of hearing other European leaders talking about this crisis.

Shambles. Seeing the Starship Troopers from the Guardia Civil bash eldery, raid ballot boxes, shooting rubber bullets. Disgraceful.

It's almost as if Rajoy want to ignite the flame for idenpendence even more.

El Pais reporting that some people have been able to vote multiple times. Apparently you can also print out the ballots at home. Has any international publication confirmed this?

Los ciudadanos que quieran votar en el referéndum podrán hacerlo en cualquier colegio electoral [...] Una misma persona ha podido votar dos o más veces, según el ministerio de Interior [...] No es necesario usar sobres y se aceptarán las papeletas impresas en casa.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/01/hechos/1506847430_088864.html

Typical scrupulously impartial coverage from El Pais I assume?

El País backs the government (on this as well).

Reports of 337 people injured. Corbyn and Nicola Sturgeon have condemned the violence of the Spanish police. Not a word from our Prime Minister yet - she's probably never been asked about by the British media though.

Same here. And it doesn't even matter, it'll be "please be cautious everyone let democracy prevail szzzz etc" from all EU leaders probably.

"we appeal to the Catalonian people to stop hitting themselves"

Seems like the Barca-Las Palmas match is off. Las Palmas had asked the Spanish FA to wear a Spanish flag on their shirts, and the FA allowed it. Oil on flames.

El País backs the government (on this as well).

Backing the government is one thing, completely fabricating information is another. I don't think El Pais has sunken to the lows of e.g. Libertad Digital (yet).

I have to say that I'm a bit irritated by the relative one-sidedness of this thread. But maybe I've been brainwashed by the relentless media coverage here. Obviously the PP has handled this whole affair very badly, but I still think one can legitimately critize the holding of this referendum.

Of course one can. And feel free to do so, to make it relatively more both-sidedness of the thread. It's not happening on its own y'know...

Yeah I mean, the handling of this is awful but I don't really know what to make of a referendum being called in this way. The mechanics or legality of one region leaving a country are pretty complex but it seems If you are part of a country you need to be given the right to hold a referendum. Perhaps this kind of reaction was what they were hoping for - it'll certainly help the independence cause.

The whole thing is p weird - like if I'm living in the region and didn't want a referendum then what does this mean for me, what would it mean if it was carried? Equally the idea of being "granted" a referendum by the ruling power is strange.

Dunno. The reaction is to be condemned for sure but the situation is pretty morally complicated.

Watching Barca-Las Palmas on telly with an empty Nou Camp is... interesting.

Yet, somehow, there still was a pitch invader.

odd article in the observer today interviewing a bunch of old catalan lefties who say this referendum is a distraction from the real issues but it was v v light on any explanation or analysis of why they thought this was so other than "lol younguns"

Pitch invader was almost as weird as Suarez tearing up his own shirt out of frustration and just... not getting back on the pitch for the last minute?

LG, you are otm. If I came across biased it is because I do think the Catalans deserve to speak out. The Catalan government sneakily pushed the needed regional legislative final vote through to make it happen, which was also nagl. Then, Spain has frustrated every attempt at dialogue about Catalan future, is making exceptions for the Basques but not them, and is just not home when Catalunya wants to talk to them.

A status quo between Spain saying "this is unconstitutional" and the Catalans saying "we have the right and need to vote" can just not stand; the two can't live together for all eternity. I think it is Madrdid's fault for not coming up with solutions, not even trying to engage with the Catalans. They've stuck their head in the sand.

I have no idea how it should have been decided, but can't fault Catalunya to finally just say: ok, we'll just go for it. Smashing it down violently certainly is the worst reaction Rajoy could have thought of.

Calling it morally complicated is an understatement.

Holding a referendum that may not be illegal or sending out a bunch of black clad stormtroopers to stop the holding of a referendum that may not be illegal - I know what looks worse to the outside world.

The Foreign Office has spoken:

"The referendum is a matter for the Spanish government and people. We want to see Spanish law and the Spanish constitution respected and the rule of law upheld. Spain is a close ally and a good friend, whose strength and unity matters to us."

(xp) may not be legal, I mean.

Makes u think xp

Feel free to crack some Catalan heads say the chaps at the FO.

this might be an interesting read. Esp. towards the end it makes some interesting points

http://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_three_myths_about_catalonias_independence_movement

maybe the future of the EU will be a lot of 'pseudo' independent regions (like Catalonia) under a powerful EU state.

anyway, Catalunyan nationalists were surely hoping for this reaction, they might even like to see one true martyr. All in all, no smart moves by Rajoy. The referendum in it's original form wouldn't have reached a big majority (if it reached a majority at all).

I wonder which European region will be next, there's some rich cats in Italy, who'd like to see an independent Padania.

and just like Spain, the Italian government is rotten and corrupt.

Yep, Lega Nord already pushing for it.

yay... as I see it, and I am sure it's not an original idea, nationalism is usually a Big State mechanism to control the 'little people' with a couple of naive dreams.
So.. no real sympathy from me for this Catalonian 'independence', especially considering the fact that they are a rich region in a poor country, and also considering the fact that Catalonia is already tremendously autonomous. So really, why bother.

The Basque and Catalan regions face intimidation to this day. When Spain then, still, refuses to engage in any meaningful discussion about things, for decades, enough becomes enough. The level of autonomy then doesn't matter, to most. I can see why they desire it. You could turn it around: despite their prosperity they are striving for independence. Knowing fully well that prosperity isn't a given in the foreseeable future if they were to secede.

I agree, as I said up here, that it wasn't a given they sí vote would have won, if it all. But that was three weeks ago...

Shocking scenes in Barcelona tonight.

Police clashing with demonstrators, and being completely overwhelmed.

pic.twitter.com/fesQIFwwAH

— Joshua Potash 🆘 (@JoshuaPotash) October 27, 2019

hey, people are having a drink, let's attack them

Una altra actuació entranyable de @mossos
Res a dir? pic.twitter.com/gBNAOP7BFw

— Roger Vidal 🎗️ (@RogerVidalColl) October 27, 2019

Fascists off the leash.