Best CHEERS character

At age 31, Kate Mulgrew had the voice of a 55 yr old east coast patrician. I liked how the writers didn't give her character some major flaw and therefore make Sam's choice between her and Diane an easy one.

Yeah, but he's spinning off the tiny bit of something he almost-remembers, and often getting away with it because the rest of the bar profoundly don't care. By the final seasons he ran out of half-facts a long time ago and p much everyone politely loathes him. It works both as a change in the writing approach and as a genuine character arc, which is really fun.

(I totally fell for it as a kid too! as well as Diane's assessment of herself as an intellectual. Rewatching in my late teens I'd already cottoned on to Cliff from his later, more pathetic version, but Diane's essential delusion was a slow "waaaait a minute" realisation.)

Was it ever explicitly stated or did I just invent it in my head that Diane stays at Cheers as long as she did because it allows her to think of herself as an intellectual. Cause compared to the rest of the ppl there, she is.

I think someone does say that one point, although I'm not sure who

Sam, most likely?

might’ve been sumner?

Ted Danson recently said he felt awkward behind the bar, that it'd be obvious that he didn't really know what he was doing back there, so to mask that he would constantly be polishing shot glasses and doing lil routines with his bar towel. But he's a retired pro athlete who owns a bar...why would he be expected to be a pro bartender?

coulda been Frasier too

feel like the polishing glasses stuff was maybe once 'explained' as a nervous side-effect of being an alcoholic running a bar

Lilith appears 2/3 of the way thru season 4, but in only 1 episode and doesn't reappear until 4th episode of season 5. Is there a backstory to that? I assume she was supposed to only appear in the one episode, but then someone or some ppl thought she was a great foil for Frasier so had her written back in?

that's addressed in the oral history:

Bill Steinkellner: [Cheri and I] wrote the first script that Lilith was in. . She was in a little bit of the first scene, and then she left. The next year came, they said, "Let's get a girlfriend for Frasier."

Bebe Neuwirth (Lilith Sternin): In 1985, I was doing a pre-Broadway run of Sweet Charity [that] started in LA and had four months off before opening on Broadway. So I stayed and tried to rustle up whatever work I could while I was waiting. The first job was on Simon Simon, and the second was Cheers. I don't know that I had seen it. But my parents, who are very smart, very sophisticated, they loved Cheers.

In New York, in musicals, I was playing parts that would never have been described the way Lilith was in the breakdown. [I thought], "What do you mean, 'not so good-looking?'" [laughs] She was kind of drab—hair straight back in a bun, uptight, no sense of humor. The musical stuff I'd go up for was always funny, sexy, tough-as-nails, heart-of-gold characters. So when I first auditioned for Lilith, I really struggled. Then her voice occurred to me in my head, and I started reading it out loud to myself, and it made me laugh. That was her.

feel like the polishing glasses stuff was maybe once 'explained' as a nervous side-effect of being an alcoholic running a bar

genius-level analysis from one of the true scholars of our times iirc

love his constant cutting up of limes when's he's playing the background of a scene too - no-one's ordering G&Ts or V/L/S or whatever, but he's an in-recovery alcoholic in a bar and is keeping his hands busy. same with the completely inappropriate swagger that he brings to swigging from those dinky little water bottles. his swig swag.

― ʘ (sic), Thursday, August 23, 2012 11:32 AM (seven years ago)

Ooh thanks Shakey. I see a link to the oral history posted upthread.

since this image from seven years upthread has linkrotted:

https://i.imgur.com/G4H7wI9.jpg

Does anyone know what the situation is re: rights in the UK? I haven’t seen it since...the early 90s? Maybe earlier? I know it’s on streaming services in the US...

It's was on Channel 4 in the mornings for ages - Diane era - but I think they've reverted to King of Queens and Everybody Loves Raymond now.

... just checked, it's still on but before King of Queens and Everybody Loves Raymond.

... so, get up early!

I will!

currently bingeing this in isolation (on series 3 atm). it’s aged incredibly nicely and is as good as it ever was.

yeah me too, crazy thing to me is how dialed in everything was from the first episode! usually sitcoms are a little awkward at first or take time to figure it out, but right from the start they nailed it

I've always been fascinated by how many sitcoms follow that pattern--how different they are when you go back to the first season or first few episodes. Another (and the most prominent, I'd say) exception to the rule: The Larry Sanders Show.

it definitely evolves (especially as Coach dies, Woody and Frasier join, Diane exits, etc), but the standard is fiendishly high from the off

The pilot might be the best first episode of a sitcom ever.

yeah it's remarkably sharp

"is there an Ernie Pantusso here?"
"That's you."
"(to phone) Speaking."

"War is gross."

robin colcord will still be terrible and bad and annoying when you reach him

We got the full 11-season box set as a Christmas present and it's been a godsend the last few weeks. We're also midway through season three and, in the early seasons at least then Diane is far and away the best character.

I'd never really seen the Diane-Coach era before (every Coach gag is just perfectly constructed) but the real revelation has been Danson and Long as a double act.l Their movement and presence and chemistry together is off the scale.

robin colcord will still be terrible and bad and annoying when you reach him

hard disagree. he's a great villain.

as cosmic slop notes way up-thread the first feature i ever wrote for NME (not a cover story tho) was abt the chemistry between danson and long

MATT DC THERE MAY BE SPOILERS AHEAD

I still get choked up thinking about the end of season 5, with Sammy dreaming of what life might have been like if he'd grown old with Diane

Ditto spoilers.

My favourite moment during the whole run was the episode where Rebecca accidentally burned down the bar. I forget exactly how it unfolded, but it looked like she was leaving the bar and Sam forever, and then Sam asked if she wanted her job back. Her response was so funny and emotional.

Also it works because Sam and Diane is a relationship/rivalry of equals but neither side recognises it as such. Mostly because Diane is considerably less smart than she thinks she is and Sam is sharper than both of them think he is.

Roger Rees is amazing as Robin Colcord.

lol right

Shit sorry I put loads of hard returns in there betwixt spoiler and warning but none materialised

(i think you have to put something on the line for it to register after like the second -- a dot or something)
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Also it works because Sam and Diane is a relationship/rivalry of equals but neither side recognises it as such. Mostly because Diane is considerably less smart than she thinks she is and Sam is sharper than both of them think he is.

this is definitely true.

the whole Rebecca-burns-the-bar-down thing is great, and hits the point where the show was pretty much saying "every character in this show is a complete dysfunctional loser except for maybe Woody". The bleakest moment in the series for me is in the episode where Lilith (be still my beating heart) cheats on Fraiser and at the end he professes his love for her and begs her to stay, and she leaves him anyway, and he makes some tragic speech about having embarrassed himself in the bar for a third time that day and Cliffy gives it this breezy "Aw don't worry about it Doc you'll get used to it", and it feels so dark and claustrophobic.

The best thing about the Rebecca-burns-down-the-bar plot is when Carla takes a job at Mr Pubs, and almost doesn't return.

God, I love Cheers.

p yes Mark I think yr right, what a clod I am

the whole arc at the end of s04 with Kate Mulgrew as the politician Sam dates and Diane realising she's in love with him is pretty much the apex of romantic comedy for me.

We're onto Season Four now and a young Audrey Horne just turned up.

Also LILIAN is an amazing character.

The first few seasons are the best but some of the broader stuff later in the show is genius (still <3 Sam as a terrible rapping sports presenter)

feels so dark and claustrophobic.

the ramping up of portraying a grim semi-realistic nature of Cliff's character in the latter years really stands out on rewatch. presumably at the time the writers just thought they were playing his annoyingness for more laughs, but it comes off as a deliberate exposure of a heart of darkness now, in a world where we're used to wider tones in sitcoms.

Does anyone know if there is a good oral history or behind the scenes-type book about this show? I bet that would be worth reading.

https://www.gq.com/story/cheers-oral-history-extended

The headline is justified imo.

Cliffy's a massively bleak character, but the genius of the scriptwriters is that, as dark as he got, he never ceased being funny. Some of the late-period plots - esp Cliffy as stand-up comedian (what's up with that?), Woody and Cliff competing for Ma Clavin's love and his arranged marriage to Maggie - are among the show's best.

Matt do you mean Lillian or Lilith?

This is a great read too https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/cheers-at-25-untold-stories-inside-writers-room-1113428

Stevie - I mean Lillian the middle aged English barmaid who is hot for Sam. One episode character I believe but the actress who played her was a classic British character actor.

Also Nancy Cartwright, who went on to be the voice of Bart Simpson just turned up in an episode.

Wow, never realized that was Sherilyn Fenn. I think Lisa Kudrow's appearance is pretty widely known.

Does anyone know if there is a good oral history or behind the scenes-type book about this show?

A book someone should write. The ones I've read on The Mary Tyler Moore Show and Seinfeld were both excellent.