Matt Taibbi

Taibbi's enemies are three letter agencies and the Democratic Party

good enemies

I really don't get the idea that impeachment is an amoral struggle. It seems an absolutely normal part of any democracy to have a process for getting rid of anyone who is just too odious. And this story, where Trump is literally abusing his power to hurt potential opponents in the next elections, is exactly what it's made for. I just don't get it at all. I mean, Taibbi tries to say that it's because other Americans don't know 'coups' the way he does, but he instead seems like someone who knows nothing in-between the US and Russia. Completely blinkered.

We had the Danish prime minister forced to resign in 93, and the country survived.

Serwer assumes — you knew there was a “but” coming, right? — that the apparent or proximate issue in the Ukraine scandal is the true, underlying issue. I’m not sure that’s a safe assumption. Was it really Trump’s attempt “to use his authority as president to pressure foreign countries to criminalize his opponents” that pushed the whistleblower forward? Or was it rather the fact that Trump was going rogue on foreign policy, in an area (Russia vs. Ukraine) that is of intense interest to the national-security establishment of both parties but is almost never discussed or debated in public?

All these things can be true, in the realm of “through a glass, darkly.” Donald Trump has committed numerous impeachable offenses, and after the Mueller report fizzled out had clearly gotten cocky about it. He said some truly dumbass things on the phone with the Ukrainian president, no doubt egged on by Giuliani and his moonbat friends, and White House flunkeys made a desperate attempt to cover that up. The CIA whistleblower — I agree with Taibbi's suggestion that he is best understood as part of a team — seized on an opportunity to weaponize the objectively disastrous Zelensky phone call, in a way that appealed to different factions of the anti-Trump coalition for different reasons.

the fact that trump is recklessly and randomly making foreign policy decisions that depart from the historical stances of the US is terrifying. i am sympathetic to figures in the national security world who are trying to stop this mayhem. but at the same time, i don't think those people are "good." they're at best more predictable than trump. i don't want them to have unilateral authority to dispense with a future president who might depart from the party line for real reasons.

i think this is what's confusing people about russiagate and ukrainegate.

i'm quoting o'heir here not taibbi btw. o'heir takes a middle line between taibbi and, like, mainstream liberals in the vein of the "mueller she wrote" podcast

I like the O'Hehir piece but I think he misses the main thrust of my distaste for intelligence-community shenanigans, which is that if they're successful they will 1000% repeat this process with an even nominally leftist president (if that ever happens). At this point I'd much prefer to see him voted out, though I'm fine with Senate proceedings keeping him occupied.

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We had the Danish prime minister forced to resign in 93, and the country survived.

We had the prime minister straight up fired by the queen's human representative for being progressive, and replaced by the opposition leader, and we sort of survived. (Apologies to treeship, who has previously argued that this did not happen and my country does not exist.)

The premier of my state had to resign over accepting one single bottle of wine as a thank-you gift and not registering it. (Dude that replaced him promptly enacted a law that closed over 400 nightclubs, bars and music venues in the city in order to drive people to the one (privately-owned) casino, bankrupted every restaurant and shop that stayed open past midnight, and quit to take a lobbying job with an investment bank before he ever had to contest an election, so jury's out on how much of a victory over corruption that was.)

sic, you're misremembering. i said i didn't know about that event and i think i even thanked you for informing me?

but whatever. sorry for the fb tags.

@Simon: The thing is, that is honestly thinking of them as way too benign. If they could, they would have done so with every president to the left of Eisenhower before. Heck, it's what Comey did to Hilary. The reason they can take down Trump is because he has given them the ammo to do so. Because he is a criminal idiot who keeps doing impeachable things.

I feel like I should know sic's story. Is it Australia?

Another one: Thatcher forced out by anti-EU forces in her own party. That one is similar to what would happen in the US, since Pence would take over. In Denmark, the conservative prime minister literally just gave up and gave power to the social democrats. No election or anything. In hindsight, it really is quite remarkable.

Another one: The Italian Trump was just removed from government by a center-left coalition, instead of having elections and let the people decide, and it's good.

To return to the original question: Is Trump being impeached because he’s a threat to democracy, or because he’s an overly obvious threat to democracy, too stupid or too stubborn to play the game by the rules? It's not difficult, of course it's because he is overly obvious, no? If he was better at it, there wouldn't be enough evidence for even Nancy Pelosi to act.

good enemies

― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius)

You support the Trump administration too?

also my enemies

fuck em all

lol Taibbi 'supports Trump' now eh

the Democratic Party's *darling* surrender on single-payer has me on the cancer expressway to the fuckin' poorhouse

I was just in need of clarification after you decided to carve out part of my sentence so you could prop up Taibbi's ludicrous position

reminder that Taibbi wrote a book titled Insane Clown President

but that was two years ago; clearly he's now the Bannon of Rolling Stone

lol Taibbi 'supports Trump' now eh

Taibbi is rich enough now that it doesn't matter to him who's president.

reminder that Taibbi wrote a book titled Insane Clown President

The key word being "Clown" - it's all so amusing, don't you know.

I feel like I should know sic's story. Is it Australia?

If you have time and can cope with 4:3 cropped into widescreen, George Miller produced, co-wrote, and co-directed a 3 x feature-length miniseries about the events in 1983

(shot by Dean Semler, co-directed by Philip Noyce)

cute non sequitur xxp

you might want to take issue with ilx then, and its apprec of gallows humor

x-post: Does it have a talking pig in it? Otherwise I'm not a fan of Miller.

yes, its name is John Kerr

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this is really good

― treeship., Monday, October 14, 2019

It's not.

yeah, it's pretty bad.

The whistleblower whose complaint against Trump has led to an official impeachment inquiry is a CIA agent. Let's just sit a moment with that, shall we?

this line of argument is so fucking dumb. dan ellsberg worked for the pentagon and the rand corporation, ed snowden worked for the CIA (as a subcontractor), and mark felt held the second-highest position at the FBI. does andrew o'hehir know what a "whistleblower" is?

shall we?

The only reason to cite the connection of the whistleblower to the CIA would be to bring their credibility into doubt. But the WH released a transcript of the phone conversation, so we now have ample and reliable evidence of the crime, coming not from the CIA, but direct from the WH. Consequently, at this point in the proceedings the whistleblower's credibility is kind of not a question any more. As for their motive for exposing Trump as a criminal, who the fuck cares?

i think it's fair to 1.) want trump gone, he's a lunatic and 2.) be wary of people using his lunacy as an opportunity to consolidate power for themselves.

But treesh, where do you see anyone consolidating power? Power would be moved to Mike Pence if Trump was impeached, and... That's basically it, everything else is speculation?

I think it’s kind of odd that liberals love james comey and people like this now honestly. And the line that trump is bad bc he is a putin asset—which i STILL see, especially as an explanation for the abandonment of kurdish allies—is gratingn, because it seems like a way to fundamentally misunderstand the problem with trump. He is not a foreigner sent to undermine our democracy. I wish he was bc then the problem he represents would be easier to solve, but he is a very realand homegrown far right nativist who managed to capture the presidency. Needs to be faced

That’s not what Taibbi is doing. His position is full on #2 because he thinks the country deserves and wants Trump.

I read plenty of liberal-ass shit and they all hate Comey.

Treesh, that's not wrong, but I don't see what it has to do with impeachment. Trump was abusing his office to help his reelection chances, that needs to be impeached. Unless you are arguing that the rules should be suspended, so that he can be defeated in another way you would find more effective. And I'm not sure that's a good argument, for a multitude of reasons.

Trump won because of American problems and not foreign intervention. Sure (it's not actually that certain, but let's say it is). He was still trying to get foreign involvement to help him next time. If that's allowed to pass, then it could very well be that the fight against American problems won't succeed, because that can't beat foreign involvement. And what's the worst case scenario in removing Trump without defeating the underlying problem? It's that the problem just pops back up, but if you think it can be defeated, well, then defeat it then. There's no argument here for not fighting against what is clearly an abuse of power.

I think it’s kind of odd that liberals love james comey and people like this now honestly.

xxp This is confused thinking, similar to the idea that if someone does something stupid, they must be a stupid person. James Comey is a great example of someone whose limited and oversimplified understanding of the world around him can show up in his actions as both bad and good, depending on whether the complexity of the situation exceeds his grasp of it.

In the case of Trump, the situation was not complicated, and his system of ethics responded adequately, for which he deserves credit. This does not make him any more reliable or loveable. He's as likely to clumsily screw things up as he ever was. However, the fact that he no longer holds a position of power makes his potential to screw things up less threatening.

I think it’s kind of odd that liberals love james comey and people like this now honestly.

wait what? Which liberals? Name'em.

That definitely *was* true, I think it's mostly worn off, thankfully. Then again he is getting a miniseries.

I'm with Fred on this one. If someone is trying to use their office to circumvent elections, they cannot be removed by... an election.

Trump won because of American problems and not foreign intervention. Sure (it's not actually that certain, but let's say it is)

hmmmmmmmmmmmm

idk i still think there's a big block of #resistance dorks that love when he posts pictures of himself gazing wistfully at the ocean with a semi-cryptic allusion to trump or some dorky quote about Honor

now he's getting the Jeff Newsroom treatment

It's impossible to measure the impact of Russian hacks on an election that was this close, but it's completely besides the point.

Pretty sure the electoral college was a bigger factor by several orders in any case and that is An American Problem

True, but so what? That doesn't prove he would have won without Russia. Because that is impossible to prove or disprove. And besides the point.

Pretty sure the electoral college was a bigger factor by several orders in any case and that is An American Problem

― Simon H., Monday, October 14, 2019

and voter suppression in North Carolina and especially Wisconsin.

yes, another American Problem that predates Trump by at least a few cycles.

this country is kind of fucked up in very many ways

this country is kind of fucked up in very many ways

It produced Matt Taibbi, after all.

Trump won because of American problems and not foreign intervention. Sure (it's not actually that certain, but let's say it is). He was still trying to get foreign involvement to help him next time.

His extremely urgent and clumsy attempt to get foreign intervention again strongly suggests that he, for one, does not believe he could have won without foreign intervention last time.

Pretty sure the electoral college was a bigger factor by several orders

Both campaigns knew about the electoral college and both strategized around its effect on the election. US voters have to hear endlessly about "swing states" during campaigns. It's hard to believe the Internet Research Bureau wasn't informed enough to know about the electoral college, too.

It is reasonable to think such basic knowledge of US elections would have guided some of their activities, especially since we know the Trump campaign was trying to get their own recent internal polling data in their hands. Saying that the EC was a big factor is not saying much. It's always a big factor and always has been. Russian troll farms have not always been added to that mix before. It was a new wrinkle in a very close election.