Best CHEERS character

(i think you have to put something on the line for it to register after like the second -- a dot or something)
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Also it works because Sam and Diane is a relationship/rivalry of equals but neither side recognises it as such. Mostly because Diane is considerably less smart than she thinks she is and Sam is sharper than both of them think he is.

this is definitely true.

the whole Rebecca-burns-the-bar-down thing is great, and hits the point where the show was pretty much saying "every character in this show is a complete dysfunctional loser except for maybe Woody". The bleakest moment in the series for me is in the episode where Lilith (be still my beating heart) cheats on Fraiser and at the end he professes his love for her and begs her to stay, and she leaves him anyway, and he makes some tragic speech about having embarrassed himself in the bar for a third time that day and Cliffy gives it this breezy "Aw don't worry about it Doc you'll get used to it", and it feels so dark and claustrophobic.

The best thing about the Rebecca-burns-down-the-bar plot is when Carla takes a job at Mr Pubs, and almost doesn't return.

God, I love Cheers.

p yes Mark I think yr right, what a clod I am

the whole arc at the end of s04 with Kate Mulgrew as the politician Sam dates and Diane realising she's in love with him is pretty much the apex of romantic comedy for me.

We're onto Season Four now and a young Audrey Horne just turned up.

Also LILIAN is an amazing character.

The first few seasons are the best but some of the broader stuff later in the show is genius (still <3 Sam as a terrible rapping sports presenter)

feels so dark and claustrophobic.

the ramping up of portraying a grim semi-realistic nature of Cliff's character in the latter years really stands out on rewatch. presumably at the time the writers just thought they were playing his annoyingness for more laughs, but it comes off as a deliberate exposure of a heart of darkness now, in a world where we're used to wider tones in sitcoms.

Does anyone know if there is a good oral history or behind the scenes-type book about this show? I bet that would be worth reading.

https://www.gq.com/story/cheers-oral-history-extended

The headline is justified imo.

Cliffy's a massively bleak character, but the genius of the scriptwriters is that, as dark as he got, he never ceased being funny. Some of the late-period plots - esp Cliffy as stand-up comedian (what's up with that?), Woody and Cliff competing for Ma Clavin's love and his arranged marriage to Maggie - are among the show's best.

Matt do you mean Lillian or Lilith?

This is a great read too https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/cheers-at-25-untold-stories-inside-writers-room-1113428

Stevie - I mean Lillian the middle aged English barmaid who is hot for Sam. One episode character I believe but the actress who played her was a classic British character actor.

Also Nancy Cartwright, who went on to be the voice of Bart Simpson just turned up in an episode.

Wow, never realized that was Sherilyn Fenn. I think Lisa Kudrow's appearance is pretty widely known.

Does anyone know if there is a good oral history or behind the scenes-type book about this show?

A book someone should write. The ones I've read on The Mary Tyler Moore Show and Seinfeld were both excellent.

Stevie - I mean Lillian the middle aged English barmaid who is hot for Sam. One episode character I believe but the actress who played her was a classic British character actor.

ah right gotcha!

still... Lilith, tho.

my fave "cameo" is def Nancy Marchand

Still no Lilith, we're only just getting our first taste of angry passive aggressive Frasier.

so much otm in this thread, especially with regard to cliff. for someone who’s irritating and lacks self-awareness, it really feels like his lot is undeservedly terrible. he’s not a bad person yet karma whacks him pretty hard.

one thing this show pulls off is to build its style of humour on jokes with largely predictable punchlines, using the bar characters as flat stereotypes to make the jokes work. but, despite their function in the show’s humour, the characters are not flat stereotypes at all. they’re as deep and well-hewn as anything in peak tv. even as early as series 3, it’s gobsmacking just how stable, unique and believable norm is as a character. he’s lazy and does basically nothing, he loves his wife but doesn’t want to see her, everyone in the bar respects and loves him even though he doesn’t seem to (outwardly) care about anyone else’s problems or fortunes. he’s charismatic for all the wrong reasons. yet the show strikes that perfect balance with his character, and sustains it right to the end. and wendt does an incredible job making norm work so consistently for so long.

another point: this show is perfect viewing during a pandemic lockdown, especially if you’re craving a local place where everybody knows your name. we are very much living vicariously through this bar atm.

I've re-watched Cheers, Frasier, and Seinfeld in recent years, and while I consider them the 3 best US sitcomes, I found the first two much more enjoyable precisely because of all the hugging and learning (whereas famously Larry David wanted none of that). I don't know, maybe I'm just getting soft in my middle age.

Never been a big fan of Frasier tbh. I don't like the character much and Daphne is unbearable.

Still funny though. Well, up to a point.

Reading that oral history now and it's interesting about what they say about Shelley Long really getting her character before the others, b/c as good as Danson and the others are in Season 1, when you watch it you sense that Diane is the absolute centre of the show and holding the thing together. That changes from S2 onwards as the others become more developed and prominent.

I’ve started watching this again from S1E1 thanks to you guys and I’m so happy I am. The warmth and tenderness in the looks between Sam and Diane are just tremendous. And the camera finds them all.

Something I didn't pick up when it originally aired, probably because I was too young to even be looking for it, is that Kirstie Alley frequently brings some real Lucille Ball energy to Rebecca Howe. It's uncanny at times.

this Roger Rees line from the oral history is killing me rn

They said, "Do you like Cheers?" I'd never really seen it. All I knew was that it was a dark brown program on late at night. But I said, "It is indisputably my most favorite program I've ever seen."

Is "dark brown program" a Britishism?

no

'dark brown programme' is

(it's not)

I mean the show is pretty dark brown, there's hardly any outdoor scenes.

apt description imo

exquisite description tbh, hats off

stop praising roger rees he sucks

a stopped clock, etc

i will never stop praising roger rees

19th of his name

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/952972391823588719/D3474D11BDE6567025DB3236D4090F4B6140FA6E/

9pm was late for me but i was 10 tbf

just remembering the episode where Frasier was reading the bar adulterated versions of Dickens stories and LOLing

I was just reading Willli9am Goldman talking about A Bridge Too far so thinking about John Ratzenberger as a macho action supporting cast actor before he got cast in this. Not sure tow hat extent that was his standard role just do remember seeing him as a marine in that, I think he's one of the guys in the boat or inflatable raid that Redford is commanding. Think I saw him in some other stuff too.
Was he intentionally cast against type for this?

First appearance of Lilith last night, absolutely hilarious performance from someone who was presumably only originally meant to be in it for one scene?

he's in one of the joan collins vehicles as a sleazy stud but i don't think he got enough work to have established a "type" really

the reason frazier is bad not good is that lilith isn't in it (and daphne is)

" Candi Pearson : I'm Candi.

Dr. Frasier Crane : Yes, so I see from your necklace, Candi with an 'I'.

Candi Pearson : Well, I used to spell it with a 'Y', but nobody ever took me seriously, so then I switched it to an 'I', you know, like Gandhi."

they must have had superb audition screening for one-ep roles, bcz so man of them are genuinely funny

(by contrast the unspeaking background ppl at the bar seem to have been screened for anonymous undistracting uselessness: the legendary "Al" can't act to save his life, as a comic or anything else -- which is kind of funny and briefly becomes an implied running meta-joke)

(obviously he's still better than roger rees)

Lilith does make a few appearances in Frasier. I don't mind Daphne, but all her many unconvincing Britishes relatives and boyfriends are one of the series major drags.

Daphne is p good as someone who stops Frasier and his Dad from tearing into one another. She could kill the show -- and her relationship with Niles eventually does -- but there are a lot of strong characters and scripts in the early seasons.

Never seen Cheers beyond the odd clip. One day I'll give it a go!

I think Cheers is still on C4 in the early mornings, but sadly they don't have it on All4 or whatever it is now.

Cheers>>>>>Frasier for me, primarily because Cheers so rarely devolved into "whoops those are my trousers"-style farce; Frasier's reference points might have been highbrow, but the comedy was often much broader.

Like, Cheers is one of the sharpest US comedies about class, for me.

cheers is all-time