Abolish the Police

ok just spitballing here but what if we abolished the police

hm interesting expand on that

the first time i got burgled the first 15 minutes of interaction with the cops was persuading them we hadn't done it ourselves cos we lived on a "bad" estate

love to burgle myself

in the US last year, the $ seized by cops in (largely illegal imo) forfeitures was greater than the amount lost in actual burglaries

I’m seeing people ask things like “But if there are no police who will go after RAPISTS???” and well I have some very bad news for those folks

— andi zeisler (@andizeisler) June 5, 2020

the only problem w not having any cops is who will we arrest the cops with

Thank you, sleeve.

I prefer the defund/shrink approach to abolish.

man alive i know you're p well read so i'm surprised to see you attack police abolitionism with...the way most police abolitionist orgs describe the path to abolishing the police

I’m definitely not well read and um, yeah, exactly.

yes, whether you see it as a reform/end in itself or as a step on the path to abolishment it's an excellent set of demands people should be able to get behind

I don't know a single person who has ever had a positive experience with the police

Part of public support for the police is misplaced liking of actors in endless cop shows, the most insidious form of propaganda out there. Abolish TV studios

endless cop shows, the most insidious form of propaganda out there

otm. going all the way back to The Andy Griffith Show and Dragnet.

and Deputy Dawg

anybody want to comment on the abolishment and replacement of the Royal Ulster Constabulary?

fine idea. I endorse it.

mostly "lol, fuck the RUC"

It was weird to open this thread and not see a gang of yank libs calling abolitionists immature dumb idiots who are probably 11 years old or something but I take that more as a sign of the moment than any kind of indication that this isn’t Chinatown

anybody want to comment on the abolishment and replacement of the Royal Ulster Constabulary?

This was a Good Thing and ultimately necessary; the RUC as a ‘brand’ was toxic for too many normal people by the GFA

Even American police forces have nothing on those guys.

came up with more ideas for police reform that will be as ineffective as anything proposed by 8 Can't Wait pic.twitter.com/eK9Aj6KpMA

— ben wasserman (@benwassertweet) June 4, 2020

thoughts and prayers is a weak ending, "make guns too big to hold" and "no ice cream before bed" have I Think You Should Leave vibes tho

yeah, i would like to remove thoughts and prayers from the platform

no fuck it abolish the police

anyone wanna give me talking point to use on a friend who thinks that defunding the police and dismantling the unions "sets an anti-labor precedent"

(note: he is a 50-something hippie lifelong bus drive diehard union member who puts labor first)

I have to admit I have a tough time on that point bc it feels like teachers' unions will be next in line

If we abolish the police wouldn’t they just be replaced by private security forces who would not even be *nominally* required to protect the safety of the public (vs private property)?

ask your diehard union friend whether it is more important that unarmed black men die or that effectively addressing their murders "sets an anti-labor precedent", because he has to recognize that these are the choices. it might resonate to ask "which side are you on?"

I think we need to transform how policing works and many of the social problems we see as police issues should be handled by social workers. Military training of cops needs to be banned outright; de-escalation must be required.

I think we should create a model of criminal justice that emphasizes rehabilitation and reintegration into society. Everyone who is released from jail should have a job lined up with a living wage.

I think a lot of things. One thing I don’t think is that we should have a weaker public sector.

btw, I helped to organize my fellow school bus drivers from an non-union shop into a unionized bargaining unit.

Maybe existing police unions should be dismantled because they support a horrific status quo, who knows. Police abolition seems like a meaningless phrase to me because there are rapes and murders in america and we need to have someone address these issues.

the tru pro labor version is that cops are class traitors who suppress other workers.

^ yes

it would probably violate various laws to eliminate police unions but they could be expelled by their affiliates and lose resources. i can't see how that would harm teachers or other public sector unions in any way.

do other unions actually kill people? i mean, not through negligence. like in their day-to-day

yeah and it's not just the fact of killing people it's that the union is used to defend this behavior through paying for lawyers for criminal and trial board cases, bargaining for agreements that help police avoid any other accountability, resisting any positive change in department rules, and making contributions to anti-worker candidates for office. all of the benefits of being labor with none of the solidarity.

benefits to the individual cops, i mean, of being organized

thank u harbl, I quoted you but now the dude is moving goalposts and hairsplitting, good times

I don't know a single person who has ever had a positive experience with the police

― anvil, Friday, June 5, 2020 7:34 PM (yesterday)

same. it is really remarkable how completely shitty and useless and terrible they are in every way.

i'm used to being the boring person in the room who argues for the value of gradualism, blah blah blah, but after the last two weeks, there's no reason to see anything positive in the police as an institution. there's no redeeming what they are. i can't look at them as anything but an instrument of anti-democratic state repression (and i recognize that, for many people, that is all they have ever been). we should get rid of them and assign their essential duties to new institutions, and hold those institutions accountable.

Police abolition seems like a meaningless phrase to me because there are rapes and murders in america and we need to have someone address these issues.

― treeship., Friday, June 5, 2020 7:36 PM (two hours ago)

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWQ7nir9p5I

Not sure where to put this, but this thread is as good as any - Interview with Portland beat cop on rapid response team

Police abolition seems like a meaningless phrase to me because there are rapes and murders in america and we need to have someone address these issues.

― treeship., Friday, June 5, 2020 9:36 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

treezy i know you can do your own googling on this

1) what percentage of murders are solved/prosecuted?
2) what percentage of rapes?
3) does research show that policing reduces the incidence of crime?
4) does research suggest that anything else does?

jfc treeship, like these assholes give a shit about solving rapes

https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis-police-discover-1-700-untested-rape-kits-spanning-30-years/564989082/

you even posted that stupid shit AFTER my other link

lol xpost with j.

I’m not super keen on the inevitable rise in vigilante justice we might see in a cop-less world. Neighbourhood Facebook groups and the like would uh... evolve, I think. Is there some way around that problem that I’m not considering?

I think if you're voicing speculative worries about private security forces and vigilantes, you need to first explain how those things would be worse than the current situation--for everyone, not just white people. Yes, those scenarios sound bad (otoh, they are fictional), but worse than +1000 Americans killed by police every year? Worse than the fact that black teens are 21 times more likely to be killed by police than white teens? I don't foresee money being spent on private security to patrol poor and/or predominantly black neighborhoods. I don't really see vigilantes doing the same, and the existence of the police didn't stop Trayvon Martin's and Ahmaud Arbery's killers.

In case these haven't been posted yet. Here's a study that analyzed data before, during, and after the NYPD's 2015 work slowdown to show that reduced policing results in reduced crime (meaner fewer reports of crimes from civilians): https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0211-5

I've only just started this myself, but Verso is giving away the e-book of Alex Vitale's "The End of Policing" if you'd like to read a more detailed argument: https://www.versobooks.com/books/2817-the-end-of-policing

"do other unions actually kill people? i mean, not through negligence. like in their day-to-day"

well less lately, but maybe check out that last Scorsese film, or On the Waterfront

treeship why are you like this

“Why dont they just report it to the police?” pic.twitter.com/vrXfgqrBlV

— Sid (@sidsidtoosid) June 6, 2020

dude treeship some ilxers have been posting some really good links in the past few days, it would be really good if you could stop doing whatever you’re doing or just go to Reddit or something

I mean links on police abolition. whatever, go nuts, it’s your world.

Found treeship’s twitter

what is a complete abolition of the police force ? i’m a visual learner btw

— m (@okaishawty) June 6, 2020

i am on team "ACAB". it's a radical (though popular) political position - radical politics does get seen as very ideological and uncompromising, and i'm just not that ideologically motivated. i'm politically because it's the position that's most likely to benefit me and the people i care about. i haven't read like the conquest of bread or shit like that, i haven't read marx. i don't see why i'd need to read them, like, i'm living this shit, what the fuck do i care about what karl marx has to say about my material conditions? i pick up some of the jargon from memes and discord chats. i think the memes are funny. i guess some people could see that as superficial but honestly, so many of my most radical positions are just me saying things that seem completely fucking obvious. if someone needs someone to explain to them why capitalism is bad, that's not me. i will explain the most basic shit about my gender identity at length over and over again, but that's mostly because it's my autistic special interest.

what was i saying? right, so when i talk about cops, there is actually a great deal of compromise or i guess what the kids call "nuance" in there. i think some moderates look at "ACAB" people and think we want to guillotine all the cops and let maniacs with chainsaws run riot in the streets. that would make a pretty cool anime but it's not totally the life i want. like the ideas i have about justice and community aren't really compatible with "policing". no, i don't have a better alternative.

people who, in general, benefit from policing - them i can see why they wouldn't want the abolition of police. i mean to them i do have to appeal to some abstract ideal of justice, argue that the current system of "justice" is not equal and not equitable, and that it cannot be _made_ equal and equitable through piecemeal reforms. basically it's a _values-based_ argument.

Agree but the way the oppressive institution exerts its power is through individuals so in real life it's pretty impossible to keep those separate.

― Daniel_Rf

sure, if you look at it in an all-or-nothing sense. in practice, it's more complicated than that. i was talking to someone recently... i can't remember who or where. almost certainly a queer person. they were talking about a respected queer community member who did a lot of really good work and who, a long time ago, used to be a cop. they cover that up. in the queer community i'm in, being a cop is possibly worse than being an actual murderer. it's seen as something only Bad People do. and to me, like...

my cousin is a cop and I'm very embarrassed about it. shit happens I guess

― Colonel Poo

i mean i've seen memes that say "all cops are bastards, even your cousin" or whatever, and maybe? but i also don't care, it doesn't like, reflect on you as a person that your cousin is doing a Bad Thing. it's like to me it's the principle of _non-identification_. the question is if someone in your life does do something like that, what's the best way to behave in that situation? a queer person i know who i think well of says "i'm thinking of becoming a cop", i don't think it's practical to say "oh well you're a horrible person, why did i ever talk to you?" and some people would do that. i mean it's a decision i'm personally strongly opposed to, but it's their decision. thinking about doing something, talking about doing something, _wanting_ to do something, i mean, to me there's a pretty bright line between that and actually doing it.

this lesbian cop i know. i mean i'm not gonna go out and denounce her to the community as being terrible because she's a cop. i'm going to listen to her, listen to her talk about the hatred she gets, and i'm not gonna tell her that you know what, maybe she deserves that, because what good does it do for me to say that? like yeah i got my beliefs but it's her fucking life. what i am gonna do is i'm gonna not get too close to her. i'm not gonna date a fucking cop! i kinda love, there's actually a whole song in the musical "fiorello!" where one of the characters is agonizing about how terrible it is that she's fallen for a cop. i mean, that's fucking relatable to me.

like the other thing is there's this whole question of what _is_ a cop. professionally, my career involves investigating health insurance fraud.

am i personally violating any of my moral principles by doing my job? nah. what i'm doing personally is good. systemically, is what i'm doing "good"? fuck no. i'm working for a private health insurance company affiliated with a transphobic religious organization. yeah i fucking hate that. professionally, i go to meetings where the FBI are there. i go to conferences and half of the sessions are presented by ex-cops and man i fucking _hate_ that. i've stopped going to those conferences, because i don't fucking want to get my CEUs by listening to some fucking cop. i could quit, i guess. i haven't quit. i'm not fully living my values, my principles, by continuing to work for that company.

i make compromises. i make compromises and i live with the consequences. how do i sleep at night? terribly. awful nightmares. would i sleep better if i quit my job? i doubt it.

A Seattle police officer was fired on Wednesday for his “cruel comments” and “callous laughter” about a pedestrian who was struck and killed by a police vehicle last year, the city’s interim police chief said.

The officer, Daniel Auderer, who is also a vice president of the city’s police union, unintentionally recorded himself laughing as he discussed the 2023 death of the woman, Jaahnavi Kandula, 23, soon after a speeding police S.U.V. driven by another Seattle officer hit her. She later died.

Mr. Auderer’s comments, which included saying that Ms. Kandula’s life had “limited value,” were recorded by his body camera.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/19/us/seattle-police-jaahnavi-kandula-death.html?unlocked_article_code=1.8U0.CADV.2UxY_YoeYfZn&smid=url-share

Scum

ACAB includes bot-cops too: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/08/chatbots-offer-cops-the-ultimate-out-to-spin-police-reports-expert-says/