Abolish the Police

fine idea. I endorse it.

mostly "lol, fuck the RUC"

It was weird to open this thread and not see a gang of yank libs calling abolitionists immature dumb idiots who are probably 11 years old or something but I take that more as a sign of the moment than any kind of indication that this isn’t Chinatown

anybody want to comment on the abolishment and replacement of the Royal Ulster Constabulary?

This was a Good Thing and ultimately necessary; the RUC as a ‘brand’ was toxic for too many normal people by the GFA

Even American police forces have nothing on those guys.

came up with more ideas for police reform that will be as ineffective as anything proposed by 8 Can't Wait pic.twitter.com/eK9Aj6KpMA

— ben wasserman (@benwassertweet) June 4, 2020

thoughts and prayers is a weak ending, "make guns too big to hold" and "no ice cream before bed" have I Think You Should Leave vibes tho

yeah, i would like to remove thoughts and prayers from the platform

no fuck it abolish the police

anyone wanna give me talking point to use on a friend who thinks that defunding the police and dismantling the unions "sets an anti-labor precedent"

(note: he is a 50-something hippie lifelong bus drive diehard union member who puts labor first)

I have to admit I have a tough time on that point bc it feels like teachers' unions will be next in line

If we abolish the police wouldn’t they just be replaced by private security forces who would not even be *nominally* required to protect the safety of the public (vs private property)?

ask your diehard union friend whether it is more important that unarmed black men die or that effectively addressing their murders "sets an anti-labor precedent", because he has to recognize that these are the choices. it might resonate to ask "which side are you on?"

I think we need to transform how policing works and many of the social problems we see as police issues should be handled by social workers. Military training of cops needs to be banned outright; de-escalation must be required.

I think we should create a model of criminal justice that emphasizes rehabilitation and reintegration into society. Everyone who is released from jail should have a job lined up with a living wage.

I think a lot of things. One thing I don’t think is that we should have a weaker public sector.

btw, I helped to organize my fellow school bus drivers from an non-union shop into a unionized bargaining unit.

Maybe existing police unions should be dismantled because they support a horrific status quo, who knows. Police abolition seems like a meaningless phrase to me because there are rapes and murders in america and we need to have someone address these issues.

the tru pro labor version is that cops are class traitors who suppress other workers.

^ yes

it would probably violate various laws to eliminate police unions but they could be expelled by their affiliates and lose resources. i can't see how that would harm teachers or other public sector unions in any way.

do other unions actually kill people? i mean, not through negligence. like in their day-to-day

yeah and it's not just the fact of killing people it's that the union is used to defend this behavior through paying for lawyers for criminal and trial board cases, bargaining for agreements that help police avoid any other accountability, resisting any positive change in department rules, and making contributions to anti-worker candidates for office. all of the benefits of being labor with none of the solidarity.

benefits to the individual cops, i mean, of being organized

thank u harbl, I quoted you but now the dude is moving goalposts and hairsplitting, good times

I don't know a single person who has ever had a positive experience with the police

― anvil, Friday, June 5, 2020 7:34 PM (yesterday)

same. it is really remarkable how completely shitty and useless and terrible they are in every way.

i'm used to being the boring person in the room who argues for the value of gradualism, blah blah blah, but after the last two weeks, there's no reason to see anything positive in the police as an institution. there's no redeeming what they are. i can't look at them as anything but an instrument of anti-democratic state repression (and i recognize that, for many people, that is all they have ever been). we should get rid of them and assign their essential duties to new institutions, and hold those institutions accountable.

Police abolition seems like a meaningless phrase to me because there are rapes and murders in america and we need to have someone address these issues.

― treeship., Friday, June 5, 2020 7:36 PM (two hours ago)

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWQ7nir9p5I

Not sure where to put this, but this thread is as good as any - Interview with Portland beat cop on rapid response team

Police abolition seems like a meaningless phrase to me because there are rapes and murders in america and we need to have someone address these issues.

― treeship., Friday, June 5, 2020 9:36 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

treezy i know you can do your own googling on this

1) what percentage of murders are solved/prosecuted?
2) what percentage of rapes?
3) does research show that policing reduces the incidence of crime?
4) does research suggest that anything else does?

jfc treeship, like these assholes give a shit about solving rapes

https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis-police-discover-1-700-untested-rape-kits-spanning-30-years/564989082/

you even posted that stupid shit AFTER my other link

lol xpost with j.

I’m not super keen on the inevitable rise in vigilante justice we might see in a cop-less world. Neighbourhood Facebook groups and the like would uh... evolve, I think. Is there some way around that problem that I’m not considering?

I think if you're voicing speculative worries about private security forces and vigilantes, you need to first explain how those things would be worse than the current situation--for everyone, not just white people. Yes, those scenarios sound bad (otoh, they are fictional), but worse than +1000 Americans killed by police every year? Worse than the fact that black teens are 21 times more likely to be killed by police than white teens? I don't foresee money being spent on private security to patrol poor and/or predominantly black neighborhoods. I don't really see vigilantes doing the same, and the existence of the police didn't stop Trayvon Martin's and Ahmaud Arbery's killers.

In case these haven't been posted yet. Here's a study that analyzed data before, during, and after the NYPD's 2015 work slowdown to show that reduced policing results in reduced crime (meaner fewer reports of crimes from civilians): https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0211-5

I've only just started this myself, but Verso is giving away the e-book of Alex Vitale's "The End of Policing" if you'd like to read a more detailed argument: https://www.versobooks.com/books/2817-the-end-of-policing

"do other unions actually kill people? i mean, not through negligence. like in their day-to-day"

well less lately, but maybe check out that last Scorsese film, or On the Waterfront

treeship why are you like this

“Why dont they just report it to the police?” pic.twitter.com/vrXfgqrBlV

— Sid (@sidsidtoosid) June 6, 2020

dude treeship some ilxers have been posting some really good links in the past few days, it would be really good if you could stop doing whatever you’re doing or just go to Reddit or something

I mean links on police abolition. whatever, go nuts, it’s your world.

Found treeship’s twitter

what is a complete abolition of the police force ? i’m a visual learner btw

— m (@okaishawty) June 6, 2020

Can we not with the pile-ons for once.

^^

people arguing "what could be worse?" than the current state of policing in the U.S. are being a bit disingenuous. ... there are plenty of names on the BLM list that were not killed by cops, but by racist civilians. If you look at the history of the KKK as well ... there is a long, gross history of black people being murdered by cops and by non-cops alike. I am not saying this to defend cops, but just to point out that by abolishing the police you are going to remove racist violence.

*not* going to remove etc., yes?

* you are not going to remove racist violence ... whoever brought up "nextdoor" upthread is otm -- we still have the problem of racism and other bigotry that exists in this country. The one "positive" aspect of professional policing is that there are rules and best practices about how to deal with certain situations that the average freaked out citizen might not know or follow. But, that doesn't have to be done by cops --- but there should be a means to keep people from doing bad things.

there are rules and best practices about how to deal with certain situations

...that aren't followed by the cops either

i guess what i am saying is that we need some equitable form of law enforcement -- but that doesn't have to be cops, but it should be better than just "groups of concerned citizens" because that could be even worse.

there are rules and best practices about how to deal with certain situations

...that aren't followed by the cops either

― sleeve, Saturday, June 6, 2020 12:55 PM (five seconds ago)

yeah, that's the joke ...

oops sorry

don't apologize! i was hoping someone would point that out!

like one of the most cogent arguments in favor of a professional police force is they are specially trained, that they have rules governing their behavior, and there is accountability if they don't follow those rules -- but, as you and others have pointed out -- in practice, this argument is ridiculous because it is far from the truth.

In case these haven't been posted yet. Here's a study that analyzed data before, during, and after the NYPD's 2015 work slowdown to show that reduced policing results in reduced crime (meaner fewer reports of crimes from civilians): https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0211-5

Couldn't that be because the lack of police presence made people less likely to report a crime, rather than made it less likely to happen?

imo the problem with ‘abolish all cops’ as a rhetorical tool is that a bunch of the interim steps you’d likely want to take (cutting police budgets, investing in harm reduction, better mental health resources, decriminalisation of drugs, ADR, a focus on mediation and restitution over incarceration, etc) stand alone as excellent policies without asking anyone to buy into the extremely contentious end goal of removing the whole judicial system. Sticking them under an absolutist banner the majority of people, at present, don’t take seriously, obscures them. You can build a framework that makes ‘abolishing the police’ more tangible without it.

Abolishing the police isn’t necessarily the same as abolishing the judicial system.