Abolish the Police

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Medicare for All certainly seems to work that way. But it also describes what it is pretty accurately, there's not much explanation needed. Give everyone access to the system we already know and mostly like known as Medicare as a means of delivering universal healthcare. Abolish ICE otoh (which I think also accurately describes what it is) seems like it kind of fizzled out.

OTOH, wonky bullshit like Eight Can't Wait is almost unquestionably dead on arrival.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:13 (four years ago) link

my company once used "mind the gap" to explain budget cuts

I am a free. I am not man. A number. (Neanderthal), Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:21 (four years ago) link

that's because too many people remember Eight is Enough

sarahell, Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:22 (four years ago) link

reminds me of that one scene in Community

"For Green week, we're changing our name to Enviro-dale"
"We're ALREADY CALLED GREENDALE!"

I am a free. I am not man. A number. (Neanderthal), Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:24 (four years ago) link

Like let's devise a slogan that (1) has no inherent content or relationship to its subject matter and (2) requires people to remember eight different policy items, none of which are referred to in any way by the slogan, and also to remember the complex relationship of each of them to each other and to data.

"Campaign Zero" = same thing. Zero what? I keep hearing that and mixing it up with Vision Zero, the NYC program to end traffic deaths.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:27 (four years ago) link

But even "zero" tells you SOMETHING, like we are trying to achieve zero instances of something, you can at least glean that much.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:27 (four years ago) link

Eight Can't Wait reminds me of the "It Can Wait" campaign to reduce traffic deaths due to texting/mobile phone use while driving.

sarahell, Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:30 (four years ago) link

Also, I think 8 is too large a number for lowest common denominator messaging which is where we're at in US society -- I feel like 5 is the absolute maximum.

sarahell, Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:31 (four years ago) link

This is why “abolish the police” and even “defund the police” are winners, that’s just one thing.

all cats are beautiful (silby), Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:32 (four years ago) link

How about the older and more venerable 'fuck the police'?

pomenitul, Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:34 (four years ago) link

yes -- i think abolish is more exciting than defund. Defund sounds kinda blah ... like "lowfat" ... or a 40 degree day

sarahell, Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:35 (four years ago) link

"fuck the police" implies the continued existence of the police ...

sarahell, Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:36 (four years ago) link

Also, I think 8 is too large a number for lowest common denominator messaging which is where we're at in US society -- I feel like 5 is the absolute maximum.

― sarahell, Sunday, June 7, 2020 11:31 AM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Five for Fighting

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:37 (four years ago) link

“Fuck the police” is kind of just a phatic construction, it’s not a policy prescription. “Cuck the police” otoh is a policy I’ve seen gaining in popularity.

all cats are beautiful (silby), Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:37 (four years ago) link

Abolish is more like "fat free" -- the Coke Zero of leftist slogans

sarahell, Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:37 (four years ago) link

Police Zero Sugar

all cats are beautiful (silby), Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:38 (four years ago) link

Crop the Cops

I am a free. I am not man. A number. (Neanderthal), Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:39 (four years ago) link

Vanilla Cops

sarahell, Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:39 (four years ago) link

Eat the Pigs?

pomenitul, Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:40 (four years ago) link

Throw the police into the sea without liferaft or donut

anvil, Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:41 (four years ago) link

Disarm the police

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:44 (four years ago) link

can't shoot if you have no arms

I am a free. I am not man. A number. (Neanderthal), Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:44 (four years ago) link

Again, I think the slogan needs to clearly refer to what the movement wants -- I feel like "fuck the" "cuck the" and "eat the" all presume that police continue to exist. If the goal is an absence of police, as we currently view the concept or symbol of police, then Abolish is quite good. The language should clearly state that the value "police" is going to be reduced to zero. Otherwise it implies a reformist strategy, which the abolitionists seem to be against.

sarahell, Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:44 (four years ago) link

yeah it's not like people in the 1800s rallied behind "defund slavery" or "reform slavery"

sleeve, Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:48 (four years ago) link

8 ways to make slavery less awful for slaves

sarahell, Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:49 (four years ago) link

Is the police slavery?

pomenitul, Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:51 (four years ago) link

there was probably an 8-point plan out there to reform slavery that said you can have a slave you just need to submit the proper reports, and your overseers must make attempts to deescalate each day before beginning work XPPPPP

contorted filbert (harbl), Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:51 (four years ago) link

harbl otm -- i think it covered topics like the appropriateness of beatings and sexual relations

sarahell, Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:52 (four years ago) link

it is not a good comparison but now that i think about it in relation to cory booker's crappy new police reform bill it's like, you guys just don't think this is all that bad

contorted filbert (harbl), Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:54 (four years ago) link

and another thing: i find it humorous that one of the points is body cameras and another is "end private policing." i do not know what they mean by private policing. but many people are not aware that a big part of the infrastructure of body cameras is data collection and storage by axon formerly known as taser international. not good, folks, not good.

contorted filbert (harbl), Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:56 (four years ago) link

I think independent surveillance of police, i.e. ordinary citizens filming police with their cell phone cameras as much as possible, is way more effective and important than body cams.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:58 (four years ago) link

xp thank you for that, also any links that anyone has about the ineffectiveness of said cameras w/r/t stopping police abuse would be most welcome

and yes agreed about citizens using cell phones

sleeve, Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:59 (four years ago) link

fuck the police" implies the continued existence of the police ...

Media tactics: Scaring WHITE citizens to believe that BLACK PEOPLE want less police or no police. STOP IT. How about good police? DON’T BELIEVE THE HYPE.

— Ice Cube (@icecube) June 6, 2020

ShariVari, Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:59 (four years ago) link

BTW, I do want to just momentarily turn back to this though, bc I think it's a dodge:

there is something else wrong with using restorative justice approaches in schools, which is that when it's done the kids go back to the same shit. which is also what happens when you put the kid on probation, so idk. it's like neither available remedy is the problem.

― contorted filbert (harbl), Saturday, June 6, 2020 3:35 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Like that is not the point I was making at all. H (my wife) is not saying "nothing works, let's throw up our hands" she's saying "I'm glad we can call the police as a last resort to break up violence that otherwise threatens and harms bystander students and school employees who try to break it up." So you need an answer to that, because that is the lived experience of a lot of people, that, in fact, there are situations where the police handle violence that others are not capable of handling. It's not *all* just perception and propaganda.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 7 June 2020 17:01 (four years ago) link

What about people who don’t have guns and badges but are nevertheless larger than high school students

all cats are beautiful (silby), Sunday, 7 June 2020 17:02 (four years ago) link

We don’t need every municipality to have a single clearinghouse for on-demand muscle for all purposes. How many people do you really need to staff the department of student-grabbing? Why do they have to be cops?

all cats are beautiful (silby), Sunday, 7 June 2020 17:04 (four years ago) link

a lot of high school students are pretty large, like people tend to be pretty close to full-grown at 17

IDK why they "have to be cops" except that the "school security officers" are apparently ineffective in these situations

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 7 June 2020 17:06 (four years ago) link

moms imo

sarahell, Sunday, 7 June 2020 17:07 (four years ago) link

i wasn't dodging, i didn't think! you seemed to bring those up as two separate points (1) the presence of police to solve the immediate problem and protect the physical safety of teachers (who i am very sympathetic to--they shouldn't be at risk like that!), and (2) "also" restorative justice didn't work.

contorted filbert (harbl), Sunday, 7 June 2020 17:08 (four years ago) link

what if they went back to the practice of corporal punishment in schools? would that make disorderly students more respectful of school staff?

sarahell, Sunday, 7 June 2020 17:10 (four years ago) link

lots of countries don't have any sort of security let alone police presence in school

The Cognitive Peasant (ogmor), Sunday, 7 June 2020 17:10 (four years ago) link

High schools as cauldrons of violence waiting to erupt (and not in a school shooting way) seems uniquely American (and British) - while we're talking about radical social change (ie abolish the police) maybe we're also talking about the changes to society that don't make high school SWAT teams necessary in Germany.

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Sunday, 7 June 2020 17:13 (four years ago) link

and there are plenty of schools in the US that don't really have this either -- a lot of it seems to come down to the schools having to take on managing the results of general social problems and injustices in that they are responsible for taking care of kids

sarahell, Sunday, 7 June 2020 17:15 (four years ago) link

which brings us right back to "there are better things we can do with this money than give it to cops"

sleeve, Sunday, 7 June 2020 17:17 (four years ago) link

we had a deputy officer in middle school but he wasn't a constant, threatening presence, he chilled in his car most of the day.

I am a free. I am not man. A number. (Neanderthal), Sunday, 7 June 2020 17:17 (four years ago) link

It's easy to speak in generalities. I am talking about the school my wife teaches in and what happens there. And btw this is an extremely well-funded public school that is majority well-off kids and tends to be on the cutting edge with progressive policies etc.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 7 June 2020 17:17 (four years ago) link

if I was a high schooler today and constantly saw metal detectors and armed cops walking up and down the hall, I'd probably freak the fuck out

I am a free. I am not man. A number. (Neanderthal), Sunday, 7 June 2020 17:18 (four years ago) link

How do we feel about Norwegian cops? Geir?

pomenitul, Sunday, 7 June 2020 17:18 (four years ago) link

he prefers cops that are off the beat

I am a free. I am not man. A number. (Neanderthal), Sunday, 7 June 2020 17:19 (four years ago) link


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