Abolish the Police

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stripping them of all institutional power is the only way forward, they cannot be reformed or controlled through the state

sleeve, Monday, 8 June 2020 20:07 (four years ago) link

this has been abundantly demonstrated over decades

sleeve, Monday, 8 June 2020 20:08 (four years ago) link

Fair enough!

american primitive stylophone (zchyrs), Monday, 8 June 2020 20:10 (four years ago) link

I agree that your concern is valid and will probably have to be addressed on some level, btw

sleeve, Monday, 8 June 2020 20:11 (four years ago) link

give em all jobs like

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9o7Ad5hBWeU/TtOol9h2gaI/AAAAAAAAX5w/SsnYYiiXAAY/s1600/shield-desk.jpg

j., Monday, 8 June 2020 20:27 (four years ago) link

if they're part of the state, then there is at least the chance we can *gain* control over them is what I mean

let's not try leninism again plz

1312 (Left), Monday, 8 June 2020 21:00 (four years ago) link

yall know that "abolish the police" includes the fbi, cia, atf, the judges, the courts, the prisons, ice, the military, liberal peace police, and the state right?

— white anarchist collars šŸ’£šŸ’„šŸŒ³šŸŒ² (@Chlxr1n3) June 8, 2020

1312 (Left), Monday, 8 June 2020 22:05 (four years ago) link

One unanswered question I have about police abolition that leaves me a little uneasy: where do the cops go? Once they're out of a job, those guys are going to take their agenda and their energy somewhere else, and I feel like a lot of them are the types who will join fringe right-wing militias, where there is no means even in theory to hold them accountable. In a weird and awful way, it seems like keeping them where they are is the only way to guarantee the people maintain a modicum of control over them. Can anyone point me to some abolitionist thinkers/activists who have thought that question through?

ā€• american primitive stylophone (zchyrs), Monday, June 8, 2020 3:58 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

admittedly there are certain things I have yet to see totally explained, but this one seems pretty easy:

1. The recruiting into right-wing militias is already happening, both on the job (those stories about Border Patrol Facebook groups, etc.) and off it. I guess theoretically there might be somebody driven to join the local KKK because they're mad they lost their job, but usually the seeds for that were planted ages ago.
2. The question seems to imply that 100% of these guys' violence is committed on the clock, which just isn't true.

like, Iā€™m eating an elephant head (katherine), Monday, 8 June 2020 22:05 (four years ago) link

abolish planet

Dig Dug the police (Neanderthal), Monday, 8 June 2020 22:05 (four years ago) link

xxp eyes on the prize

sleeve, Monday, 8 June 2020 22:06 (four years ago) link

my home state at it again. don't live near Brevard, but just about the entire city lit up their FB thread yesterday when they posted this shit.

their comeback this morning was a GIF meme with doctored crime stats proving there was no systemic racism

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/brevard-county-florida-police-union-misconduct-trnd/index.html

Dig Dug the police (Neanderthal), Monday, 8 June 2020 22:12 (four years ago) link

XPs to Left; I definitely don't want to see anything like Leninism. "Control" maybe not the best word...I just want to see real honest-to-god accountability.

american primitive stylophone (zchyrs), Monday, 8 June 2020 23:52 (four years ago) link

ok but surely trying to achieve that through the police or state is just self defeating

1312 (Left), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 00:57 (four years ago) link

yall know that "abolish the police" includes the fbi, cia, atf, the judges, the courts, the prisons, ice, the military, liberal peace police, and the state right?

no, it doesn't

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 01:06 (four years ago) link

it does actually

1312 (Left), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 01:10 (four years ago) link

weird radical v reformist push pull under the same banner going on atm

1312 (Left), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 01:14 (four years ago) link

I like the state actually and I donā€™t know what ā€œliberal peace policeā€ are but the rest of those things definitely on the abolition table just my imho

all cats are beautiful (silby), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 01:17 (four years ago) link

it's cute how anarchists see demonstrations against racist institutions and assume that everyone has suddenly become an anarchist

i'm pretty sure abolishing "the state" would not get rid of racist violence, quite the opposite in fact

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 01:19 (four years ago) link

abolish all matter

Dig Dug the police (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 01:23 (four years ago) link

who is assuming everyone is an anarchist (whatever that means)?

how is the state currently preventing racist violence? how/why would you abolish police while maintaining the state? how would the state then prevent racist violence in this scenario?

1312 (Left), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 01:29 (four years ago) link

Man, liberals are getting spicy in their negative takes on human nature.

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 01:31 (four years ago) link

I don't understand the conceptual separation of police & state at all tbh

1312 (Left), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 01:35 (four years ago) link

also hobbes can eat a fat one

1312 (Left), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 01:35 (four years ago) link

anarchists really "getting out over their skis" rn, to use a phrase that has suddenly been everywhere

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 01:37 (four years ago) link

"Don't you think that if we did away with the people committing the racist violence being protested that the masses would just erupt in an orgy of racist violence?"

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 01:37 (four years ago) link

liberals are getting spicy in their negative takes on human nature.

We are speaking of that same sunny, reliable human nature that turns out racists and death cultists by the bushel basketful, right?

A is for (Aimless), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 01:40 (four years ago) link

ideology

1312 (Left), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 01:42 (four years ago) link

my memory is not very good, was ā€˜abolish the policeā€™ always a central BLM message or was that just something that got going in the last 2 weeks during snowballing success off the current round of protests? seems to be part of the discourse in a way it wasnā€™t before at least

flopson, Tuesday, 9 June 2020 01:47 (four years ago) link

i read about camden NJ disbanding their police dept. they actually increased funding and increased the number of cops, and crime fell. i expect BLM people to stop using it as an example of what mpls should do once people catch on

flopson, Tuesday, 9 June 2020 01:50 (four years ago) link

it was definitely part of The Discourse preivously

like, Iā€™m eating an elephant head (katherine), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 01:54 (four years ago) link

What is the #abolishthepolice case against the Camden model?

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 01:56 (four years ago) link

i donā€™t support abolishing or fully defunding. im not sure what would even entail, and it obviously wonā€™t happen, so it seems like a distraction to argue about it. saw a thread on twitter with someone responding to the good question ā€œwhat about rapists?ā€ and they said that when the cops put a rapist father in jail the kids grow up without a father. that doesnā€™t seem like a satisfying rebuttal, and the rest of the thread was similar whataboutery.

i feel like ā€œabolishā€œ is the overton window shifting signal for ā€œradically circumscribe police as currently designedā€, which i do support, and thatā€™s what ive spent most of my energy arguing for. the one ā€œrealā€ encounter i had with the cops was when we called 911 after my roommate got roofied and ODā€™d; they came in and beat the shit out of him (he was spastic and totally unaware of what was happening) then they beat the shit out of his girlfriend for freaking out at them while they beat her partner, and then arrested her and now she has a criminal record. it was a confusing and terrible situation but i feel like as a society someone else should have been the first responder to that kind of call. reading social media the last 2 weeks, it seems that everyone has stories like this.

the number and function of cops seems like itā€™s chosen by an unholy alliance between real estate developers, business groups and police unions, all of whom have selfish reasons for wanting police depts to be inefficiently large and powerful. and of course police unions want cops to be unaccountable, which the other 2 are happy to oblige. i hope this moment creates a countervailing popular movement that can permanently change the political economy and create some democratic accountability and smaller police depts

flopson, Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:10 (four years ago) link

What is the #abolishthepolice case against the Camden model?

ā€• longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, June 8, 2020 9:56 PM (thirteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

just that they didnā€™t abolish the police. they disbanded, immediately reinstated, and then hired many more cops

flopson, Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:11 (four years ago) link

flopson, I know, I mean what is the critique of the tear down/rebuild differently approach in Camden - obviously you can find plenty of people claiming it "worked." Are there good critiques of it out there?

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:13 (four years ago) link

o Left, ye idiot still speaketh

brooklyn suicide cult (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:13 (four years ago) link

saw a thread on twitter with someone responding to the good question ā€œwhat about rapists?ā€ and they said that when the cops put a rapist father in jail the kids grow up without a father.

You probably should have looked for the responses to that from women talking about how police ignored, harassed or blamed them for their sexual assault instead of that dipshit.

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:14 (four years ago) link

the people i know who are most interested in restorative justice are also victims' advocates who have had to deal most with the shortcomings of the criminal justice system when it handles sex crimes and domestic abuse

j., Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:14 (four years ago) link

xp actually "what about rapists" is not a good question see lost rape kit links upthread

mostly agree with yr last 2 paras tho, yes it is an Overton Window slogan but also legit orgs have been working for this for years

sleeve, Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:15 (four years ago) link

morbs still reactionary creep

1312 (Left), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:28 (four years ago) link

i'm a weirdo

brooklyn suicide cult (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:32 (four years ago) link

xp - You should meet him sometime before you assign him a label and dismiss him.

A is for (Aimless), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:32 (four years ago) link

You probably should have looked for the responses to that from women talking about how police ignored, harassed or blamed them for their sexual assault instead of that dipshit.

ā€• Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Monday, June 8, 2020 10:14 PM (forty-two seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

this was the thread:

For people who ask "what about the rapists?" during abolition conversations:

— Wagatwe Wanjuki šŸ‡°šŸ‡Ŗ šŸ‡§šŸ‡ø (@wagatwe) June 8, 2020

i donā€™t think the person who wrote it is a dipshit. itā€™s a decent attempt to answer a hard question, it just didnā€™t convince me. cops ignore and blame women for sexual assault, but they also do put some rapists in jail. imo they put too few in jail; i donā€™t know the source but the stat you often see is 0.5%. depressingly low but higher than 0 which is what it would be under abolition. a good friend of mine is very happy that her rapist is in jail. itā€™s hard to say whether or how an alternative system without a state monopoly on violence would be able to deliver her that peace of mind

changing how sexual assault is dealt with should be part of ā€œradically circumscribing policeā€ but iā€™m not yet convinced that switching to largely untested restorative justice and community based methods is the way to go

imo these debates are kind of troll-ey word games and largely besides the point

flopson, Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:34 (four years ago) link

Was it Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten who said, "If you label me, you negate me?"

Dig Dug the police (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:35 (four years ago) link

Either/Or is Enough

Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:38 (four years ago) link

i donā€™t think the person who wrote it is a dipshit.

The person whose response to a rapist's punishment is "kids grow up without a father" is a dipshit.

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:39 (four years ago) link

Even under the most radical non-incarceral abolish prisons and police worldview, "rapists need to be able to raise their kids" isn't in the top 1000 reasons for that worldview

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:40 (four years ago) link

depressingly low but higher than 0 which is what it would be under abolition

this is just simply not true, c'mon dude

abolishing the police still leaves social workers, medical system, legal system, all kinds of accountability

sleeve, Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:42 (four years ago) link

ya itā€™s a bad point. her broader argument is basically that the ā€œmultiplierā€ from jailing a rapist is bigger than 1. jailing a rapist begets more rape through perpetuating a cycle of trauma and violence.

flopson, Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:42 (four years ago) link

that was xp to milo

flopson, Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:43 (four years ago) link

# of better slogans proposed so far: 0

k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:43 (four years ago) link


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