Abolish the Police

but hey, i was totally wrong about ICE a couple years ago

a "ring" of depressive maniacs

Huh. I didn't know ilx existed that far back!

heh, sorry, that was an inside-joke with a post i typed and deleted from about 5 minutes ago that was also about about why it's not good to shut down questions on how it would work, and acknowledging that views can change. and in the middle of that deleted post i brought up how embarrassing it is that a couple years ago when people here were talking about abolishing ICE, i was one of the people going "buuuut how would it work? can we just do that? what about actual border problems? what about breaking bad?" etc. but people can change, as long as they keep open minds!

okeydokey. i'm going to water my plants now.

I hope you change your mind again

now i'm feeling bad about things. maybe lots of people have been fucked up by school-appointed psychologists or counselors. sorry if anyone out there reading this went through something like that too, it sucks. maybe it is me who has the *tim rogers voice* sub-hannity opinion

gotcha left

xp - ICE is a bit different because we had border and customs police before ICE existed, so abolishing ICE wouldn't actually mean no border control.

wait it wouldn’t? dammit

if there's a troll here it's me because that's how I'm perceived, if at all. I am actually trying to be genuine here but I know nothing I say will be taken seriously, even if I was good at expressing my positions articulately the positions automatically exclude me from seriousness. I'm not claiming any specialised knowledge, my position is subjective and emotional and based the personal experience of me and people I've known. it's frustrating not being able to get through but it doesn't only go one way and I'm pretty used to it by now

xp
yeah ICE is egregious in its recent superfluity, much like DHS

Left, my problem with your posts is you seem to have a great deal of contempt for the posters here and I generally get tired of frequent posters who go on and on about how much ilx sucks. In this thread in particular I can't really tell what you're advocating...something about workers shooting people? I guess you're in favor of completely dismantling the state, which is fine but what do you expect people to say back to that really?

xp -- abolishing ICE is also different because ICE was "abolished" for the entirety of US history until 2003

Right, like I actually remember when there was no ICE/Dept of Homeland Security. I thought it was a bad idea even at the time.

I mean, I agree with all of this, just show me what the "something better" actually looks like beyond vagaries. Does each school have full-time bouncer-sized guys who are also trained in deescalation on site? Is there some kind of "physical security and deescalation agency but definitely not cops" that you can call that will be there in 5 minutes the way the cops are?

Serious answer here: I agree it's not a hypothetical or unimportant question. Students can be violent under the best of circumstances; some are dealing with violence or abuse at home, some have severe emotional or mental disorders, some are coping with puberty or overtired or hyped up on sugar or adderall. These aren't rarities! It doesn't take a 180 pound kid; any six year old with leverage can put a pencil in you before you understand what's going on.

That said, I think if you have a hammer all problems look like nails. Having a "bouncer" or a cop on site leads to treating your students like prisoners, which is to say that public education as it stands almost necessarily involves the dehumanization of children.

What's almost certainly needed is an unarmed, well-vetted, well-paid, certified, unionized, regularly reviewed paraprofessional therapist in every public classroom who has been trained to cope with the immediate needs of the school they're working in and who is disallowed from physically interacting with kids unless they are armed or immediately harming another student or teacher.

This all comes down to funding education; adding that level of quality support bumps the budget by probably 80k per classroom annually. The issue is that people have been politically conned into preferring arresting eight year olds and allowing weekly school shootings over defunding the PD... but it could change fast if the money is there for schools! Right now, with COVID compounding the issue, I can't believe it will be and that is something we should all be deeply ashamed of.

fwiw: my engagement with education is a few years working adjacent to arts ed, a sister who has worked as a librarian in public education in underfunded Memphis TN schools and megafunded private Bay Area schools, a partner who has worked in arts ed all over NYC for over a decade

and now i see that KM said more or less the same thing before i got around to typing up this post.

who is advocating getting rid of social and mental health workers? i honestly have never seen that, but is it a hannity thing? if so, fuck that, and conviction doesn't equal coherence or deserve equal footing in a debate

― Karl Malone, Sunday, June 14, 2020 5:51 PM (forty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

From what I've seen on the twitter, we are being asked to understand/remember that social workers have been a part of the state that penalizes poverty and criminalizes trauma. Something about the history of sw making room for white women to be adjacent to men in medical & political power, which I can't remember enough to be more specific about.

At a minimum, I think it's important to remember that a "mental health worker" isn't a panacea if we still hold the same beliefs and values as a society; they will just be called to enforce the values of the society that credentials & hires & evaluates them. (Not all social workers obv but the system is stronger than individuals and anyway we need a radically better system, that's why we're even discussing it.)

Yeah, I wasn’t initially going to open that can of worms but “mental health” has taken on a bit of a magic phrase quality in this discussion. A lot of mental health services are actively harmful and even when they aren’t there often isn’t an easy treatment solution.

xp this is the thing, better than I could put it

xxxxxxp "cool" would be my preferred response but wcyd
the workers thing was a semi-flippant response although I would't be opposed

I have a lot of contempt for a few specific posters who have a pattern of horrible posts, I think I'm allowed that however beloved they are in these circles. none of them are regularly posting on this thread afaict

as with any online space I dislike some things about the culture of these boards but I wouldn't be here if there weren't tendencies I could relate to, even if/when they've been counter to the dominant voices at times. might not last much longer as a poster much to everyone's relief

Re some of the underpinnings of this circular conversation: Yes, it is true that we shouldn't be expecting teachers to put themselves in "danger," that's not what they're trained or hired for (leaving aside for the moment what "danger" actually consists of). It is concurrently true that criminalizing children, which MASSIVELY disproportionately affects Black and brown children for the rest of their lives, is a hollow, craven solution to "teachers shouldn't be in danger," but societally we have ALWAYS preferred to put the outrage on the teacher's risk or the child's behavior. We need to entertain the same level of affront for the conditions of those children's lives (and their communities'), and yet we keep centering the person with the most privilege in this situation.

Man alive, you've never said WHAT it was that made the police more able to respond to students' physical outbursts than the school staff--what quality or ability did they have that you believe made the difference?

stout hearts

WHAT it was that made the police more able to respond to students' physical outbursts than the school staff

In the crudest terms, teachers are not authorized to use force or to impose active restraint against students and are subject to discipline if they do, whereas police have such authorization. That about sums up the one critical 'ability' police have teachers do not.

I will not express an opinion about the advisability of using force or active restraint against students, because I have insufficient breadth of experience there.

Other posters suggested that schools could employ people who were allowed and trained to safely physically restrain students but man alive rejected that idea and said no, it had to be police, but iirc he never said WHY it had to be police?

Left what was your username before you made this account two months ago

b/c afaicr you appeared sometime in the recent past to immediately be antagonistic towards everyone which is a weird way of getting your rocks off!

xxxxxxp "cool" would be my preferred response but wcyd

same for my posts too of course!

Terrific posts, in orbit.

silby I can't remember what it was c2007-9 I mostly just lurked. maybe I can blame the state of ILM back then, I'm bitter I was too intimidated by certain elements to post much. I know a healthy person wouldn't care about that now. twitter phase in between didn't help matters either

I've only been intentionally antagonistic here to people defending abusers, I'm not sorry about that. I'm sorry I come across like that in general. how do people not be angry all the time

we're all angry all the time. imo this forum is here to give us a place to talk and not yell at each other, it's a good exercise.

Ty, Alfred! It's been an outlet for my generalized rage.

it's important to remember that a "mental health worker" isn't a panacea if we still hold the same beliefs and values as a society; they will just be called to enforce the values of the society that credentials & hires & evaluates them.

In a way it's almost like having an "Abolish Private Insurance" campaign instead of "Medicare For All." Private insurance is shit and everyone knows a million reasons why it's shit and has personal bad experiences with it, but if you just suggest taking it away as the goal in itself instead of making the replacement the focus, that won't be very popular.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, June 14, 2020 1:49 PM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

same with capitalism *ducks*

one of the alternatives that is consistent with “abolish the police” is the libertarian dystopia where everyone buys their own private security force. approximately zero people want that, but it’s not even obvious whether, for example, a moderate amount of defunding will just be compensated for with higher private alternatives

Terrific posts, in orbit.

^^

man alive needs to explain to me how the immediate improvement to the lives of millions of POC (including students) by abolishing the police is outweighed by the few thousand annual school encounters that necessitate calling the police. I don't get it.

Especially given that policing in schools is part of the problem. It's not like the way police operate in the public school system is some kind of exception to the way they operate in the rest of society.

Looking forward to (and I say this with affection) to Left's "abolish money" post.

did I forget to post that one

side note: man alive, I don't agree with your take here but I appreciate that you're posing a legitimate question.

That said: Lots of institutions have their own security that do not have the sweeping power of the police state, school-to-prison pipeline, upholding centuries of racial oppression and so on. I have more faith in a potential alternative than what we have right now, since the reforms that have been tried for.. years? decades? haven't made any meaningful change, due to police unions and the gang mentality discussed above that destroys anyone on the inside with a conscience.

But the protests did get 50-A repealed in NY, which potentially could be a step forward. (Only one step, and maybe they'll find a way around it; like shutting off body cams before arrest, police could start destroying their own records in anticipation of lawsuits).

The protests, and the long-term organizing of coalitions like Communities United for Police Reform!!!! There's like 60 orgs signed onto this and they've BEEN winning major victories in police accountability and community safety for years. Their work is what made this moment possible!

@Left might save everyone some time if we got a list of stuff u would not care 2 abolish

xp true true

Incredible #BlackTransLivesMatter rally in Brooklyn, America today

This is what solidarity looks like! We need some of this in the UK ✊#BlackLivesMatter #TransRightsAreHumanRights 💕 https://t.co/2KTcJNkOF4

— Helen🧜🏻‍♀️ (@mimmymum) June 14, 2020

Several thousand New Yorkers dressed in white have taken over several blocks of Eastern Parkway in solidarity with Black trans lives pic.twitter.com/PgmTzwuwVC

— Jake Offenhartz (@jangelooff) June 14, 2020

It’s funny how the word “defund” sets people off. It’s almost like it gets to the heart of the matter.

— Doug Henwood (@DougHenwood) June 15, 2020

Their work is what made this moment possible!

Organizing stepped up considerably after Ferguson, MO. Without the organizing groundwork laid in advance, the reaction to George Floyd's death would have looked a lot more like that of Michael Brown's. My hat off to the many hundreds of people who put in the thousands of hours preparing, so this mass movement could coalesce as quickly and strongly as it has in the past weeks.

And another tip of the hat to Occupy Wall Street for training a new generation in activism.

pic.twitter.com/T2srKF2uih

— Harley Jarvis (@hamtarohoe) June 14, 2020

apropos of nothing

After Columbine over 10,000 school police officers were hired just in case a school shooting happened. Two decades later, they haven't stopped a *single* school shooting. Instead they've arrested over 1 million kids, mostly students of color, for routine behavior violations. https://t.co/DKoJE9LL3e

— Samuel Sinyangwe (@samswey) February 23, 2018

Today in Charlotte cops arrested people who were providing support to protesters who were released from jail. Adding this to the list of reasons to #DefundThePolice. pic.twitter.com/xXyBgLHUPR

— nyc law grrrl (@nyclawgrrrl) June 19, 2020

Heard yesterdfay that there are police in a lot of schools in Scotland thanks to the way that a fund that was supposed to be helping with poverty etc was handled.

Also that at least one school in Richmond California managed to get rid of SROs in their school or at least the process is underway.

Thanks for posting that xyz. I got lost in the story and looking up more about it, and by the time posted about it on the police brutality thread I forgot that I saw it on ILX first.

So fucked up, attacking the people who are there to do the work that the state refuses to do

ACAB

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/25/two-met-police-officers-arrested-over-photo-of-murdered-sisters