I'm not sure if I should be asking this because I'm about halfway through the book and I've watched the new movie and the Lynch one and I can't quite understand or remember the exact reason why the Emperor just randomly decides to hand Arrakis over to the Atreidis family only to then send in the cavalry and try to destroy them. Or am I missing something glaringly obvious?
― Urbandn hope all ye who enter here (dog latin), Wednesday, 27 October 2021 14:57 (two years ago) link
Basically it's a headfake everyone knows is a headfake -- the Emperor is sending a popular local leader who could be a locus point of resistance to his reign to a place that's highly important but where he's been set up to fail. The Atreides go in knowing this and assume that's it but what isn't known is the extent of the Emperor's military involvement -- the cover story is in essence that the Harkonnens were pissed and reconquered the place on their own. The Sardaukar's involvement and therefore the direct hand of the Emperor in destroying a potential rival is meant to be secret. Thus in the film Duncan Idaho's rage towards Kynes when they first meet about whether she will tell the truth or not.
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:03 (two years ago) link
Seems like a lot of trouble, why didn't they just poison dart everyone?
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:06 (two years ago) link
EPA (Emperor's Poison Regulations) issues.
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:06 (two years ago) link
Well that acronym failed but anyway.
Harkonnen, Atreides, Arrakis :: Russia, US, Afghanistan
― Profiles in Liquid Courage (WmC), Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:10 (two years ago) link
who are house Ordos?
― edited to reflect developments which occurred (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:16 (two years ago) link
Where does Tarkus fit into all this?
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:16 (two years ago) link
paul is UBL and harkonnen is usa
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:18 (two years ago) link
is there any backstory suggesting that house atreides are actively gunning for shaddam or is it just that the padishah emperor is grumpy someone else is more popular than him at the landsraad
― mark s, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:19 (two years ago) link
also if the landsraad actually has enough heft that shaddam is worried abt being found out, how is it going to respond if it thinks that the (unpopular) harokonnens just went back in and murdered all the (popular) atreides and shaddam -- having ordered the handover -- just says "eh"
― mark s, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:23 (two years ago) link
everyone's plan is terrible! this known universe needs a jihad imo
― mark s, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:24 (two years ago) link
otm
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:25 (two years ago) link
the more i learn about it the more im starting to appreciate the finger painting style of dune, it makes enough sense to be compelling but not really enough to withstand examination, good stuff
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:28 (two years ago) link
the movie sort of hints that the atreides are justly popular and admired, but the harkonnens aren't just brilliant and cruel but extraordinarily rich (and likely have their own huge base of support) and have been manipulating the spice market instead of handing it all over to the emperor and the guild, i guess?? or something?
― goole, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:29 (two years ago) link
like youre all thats crazy the space witch is just going to kill the heir to a major house what, then you realize its just some cool shit
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:29 (two years ago) link
on the other hand a brief perusal of history will confirm that during the era where there were monarchs and great houses they were constantly doing completely insane bloody schemes
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:30 (two years ago) link
but also maybe the witch was just bluffing, feel like that might be overthinking it tho is what im saying
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:31 (two years ago) link
maybe lynch was the perfect director for this impressionistic intrigue, too bad they didnt give him three movies to do it
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:34 (two years ago) link
what spoils the lynch version is DL's very evident dislike of sand
― mark s, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:38 (two years ago) link
and catamites
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:39 (two years ago) link
Tolkien stated “I dislike DUNE with some intensity,” but he did not give a reason why
^^^found in quora while looking for answers to questions ITT
― mark s, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:41 (two years ago) link
lol drama
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:42 (two years ago) link
sand must play havoc with those old bolexes
― edited to reflect developments which occurred (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:42 (two years ago) link
Now that I think about it, I'm not sure I remember any sand in Lord of the Rings.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:47 (two years ago) link
or catamites
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 27 October 2021 15:50 (two years ago) link
My only major disappointment with this film is the lack of "mood is a thing for cattle and loveplay."
― Spencer Chow, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 16:05 (two years ago) link
"im in the mood (for cattle)"
― mark s, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 16:15 (two years ago) link
this known universe needs a jihad
https://c.tenor.com/O9fwyX_poqkAAAAC/joker-jack.gif
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 16:35 (two years ago) link
i never really got why the most important planet in the universe is handed over to feudatories to run instead of being held by the imperial house directly. lagoon otm
― goole, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 16:39 (two years ago) link
The Emperor dirty his hands with mere COMMERCE? Tsk.
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 16:48 (two years ago) link
guild wouldn't allow it
― mark s, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 16:50 (two years ago) link
bc the emperor controls like 56% of CHOAD or whatever and the landsraad holds the rest and control of the fiefdom of arrakis is a power-sharing compromise
― poster of sparks (rogermexico.), Wednesday, 27 October 2021 16:51 (two years ago) link
guild is definitely who keeps arrakis obscure and unknown, this is explicitly noted
why doesn't the guild seize the monopoly themselves? bcz they peeked the future and saw it held catastrophe
their best bet is putting pressure on emperor and landsraad to enact "insane bloody schemes"™️ at one another
― mark s, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 17:05 (two years ago) link
Wait so the general galactic public doesn't know spice comes from there?
― chap, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 17:10 (two years ago) link
lol i just read a thread on a wikifan site where various contributors were screaming at one another abt how much or how little is generally known abt spice
it sometimes gets called "geriatric spice", which i guess does suggest that routine public knowledge abt its uses is limited
― mark s, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 17:14 (two years ago) link
man you're supposed to skip over writing political economy entirely, not half-ass it!
― goole, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 17:25 (two years ago) link
maybe JRR just hated his language. "kwisatz haderach" is some clunky shit.
― goole, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 17:26 (two years ago) link
kwisatz durbatulûk, kwisatz gimbatul
― mark s, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 17:29 (two years ago) link
i always assumed that chakobsa was some native american tribe or tongue but no:
Chakobsa is a Northwest Caucasian (NWC) language (possibly in the Circassian subgroup), also called "shikwoshir" or the "hunting language". It was originally a secret language used only by the princes and nobles, and is still used by their descendants. Jacob Reineggs (1796, p. 248) was the first to record any Chakobsa: a list of 19 words. Though the overall appearance of these words seems to be NWC, they have no cognates in any language of that family or any other. In the Bzhedug dialect of Adyghe the language is called /šʿˊakʾ°abza/, literally "hunting language" (/šʿˊakʾ°a/ "hunting" + /bza/ "language"); the modern name "Chakobsa" is based on an earlier form of the word, */čʿˊakʾ°abza/. An informant has asserted that Chakobsa is based on Circassian, encrypted by reordering words and changing phonemes, rather like Pig Latin but more complex. Although not yet confirmed, this seems a reasonable hypothesis.[1]
― mark s, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 17:32 (two years ago) link
"rather like Pig Latin but more complex"
top work there frank, no wonder tolkien was disdainful
― mark s, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 17:33 (two years ago) link
more: https://languagehat.com/chakobsa/
― mark s, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 17:36 (two years ago) link
cmon i think we all know why tolkien didnt like dune, lets just say the man is not a fan of jihad
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 17:39 (two years ago) link
FH shd have called them sandwyrms
― mark s, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 17:42 (two years ago) link
They know, but the unknown/obscure part is due to a massive bribe the Fremen pay the Guild to basically say "Yeah we've checked around Arrakis and there are some tribesmen but it's mostly just sand and worms, plus weird storms." In the meantime the Fremen are all 'Okay our generations-long ecological conversion project can continue unhindered.'
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 17:54 (two years ago) link
and the guild keeps the planet satellite free as part of that, the bribe is paid in blackmarket spice iirc
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 17:58 (two years ago) link
since the top layer of known space is is feuding space feudalism plus the super-secretive navigators guild plus the bene gesserit plus no computers (so no google or wikipedia) i'm guessing the ordinary galactic citizen is actually p poorly informed abt spice or indeed anything else
― mark s, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 18:12 (two years ago) link
the jihad will have been a shock to them
paul keeps saying "arrakis! dune! desert planet!" to himself, "desert power" is actually an improvement on this device imoI watched the lynch one last night & I swear they say “desert power” in that as well so is that not from the book?The other question I have about the new one after watching the old one is: at this point in the story should we not have seen GUILD NAVIGATOR by now?
― siffleur’s mom (wins), Wednesday, 27 October 2021 18:15 (two years ago) link
there is some suggestion (viz by max read) that the gathered fellows in golden helmets with occluded visors were extremely guild-adjacent
we don't see one in the books until dune messiah (he's called edric)
― mark s, Wednesday, 27 October 2021 18:25 (two years ago) link