Real love -- I'm, like, searchin' for that Queer Love -- LGBTQIA+ Love // A Thread for the Real Ones

omg mine too is a lil snug, I forget which one I sent you but the one I have has her face on it and my belly makes it fold in half so that it makes her look like that one picture of Aphex Twin

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/da/Aphex_Twin_-_Syro_main_press_photo.jpg

you sent me the glow in the dark one (which amazingly still works after probably dozens of laundry cycles)

I just watched unzipped recently and it was so good. also did you know there's a sister documentary called catwalk that basically follows Christy Turlington all over the world?
pretty awful what's going on with Linda Evangelista. she just released the first body pics of her condition due to coolsculpting. unimaginable.

I was sad to miss Kates. Heard my friend Anna blew it outta the park, and saw the wacky inflatable Cathy and Heathcliff blow-up piece on film. Looked like a really fun time, but we had planned a dinner months ago with our gay friends, one of whom is going through a health scare...so it seemed more important to hang out with them.

I finished "Detransition, Baby," yesterday, and while I thought it ended much too quickly, I thought it had some really lovely moments.

hope your friend is hanging in there <3

xp y0ung?? she fuckin KILLED it (as per usual). I hope they post a recording of the livestream.

I've been listening to a lot of RuTH lately 🌄🌄🌄

yes Stevie, that Ann4

o boy what a life we lead really

so I'm not sure when the next time I'll "meet" someone is, let's call it, due to extenuating circumstances

do i care?

will i ever go out to a bar and pick someone up again? i had occasional game. all of a sudden I'd love to meet someone younger than me. i usually don't gravitate to that realm. i wonder what that's about

you will absolutely go out to a bar and pick someone up again, it is so inevitable

Date tonight. At a (rooftop) bar. I shoulda asked if he's jabbed.

first date? how did you meet? brown hair, big heart, bat eyelashes?

you know Stevie it's just at first it was pandemia, and then health stuff that's going to take another 6 months to settle. just didn't realize I'd be singing the same tune for the goddamn 3-year dark ages. but whatever i'm going to get so many beauty treatments when this is all through I plan on looking like Princess Jasmine meets Bella Hadid. mark my words.

also i quit smoking forever and it's truly something else. going on 6 months.

my new issue of BUTT just arrived!!!!!!!!!

omg i already read some of the poems
how is it at large?

is it large?

C'mon Simone, let's talk about your big "but."

I haven't read it yet bcz I got it at work and then *brag alert* went straight to my fuck buddy's house for a cute date and only just got home a few hours ago!!!

butts all around

butts rule everything around me

OK SO
I'm not a butt man and i keep feeling more and more alone
like American men are just obsessed with them
i feel like there's something wrong with me

Stevo you're killin it these days

don't care about the outside, it's what's inside that counts imo

like the way it feels?

yeah! i mean not to get too tmi or too cliche i guess but i just think anuses are this incredible part of us lol and i really like experiencing them.

So! My Saturday night date sold me out. I suspected trouble when I had to text him 15 mins before meeting: he was running late thanks to a "minor emergency" at his parents', whatever that means (what's a "minor" emergency?). Luckily a friend kept me company at the bar.

An hour later, date texts: "On my way, send location address plz?" That's the last I heard of him. For a while I thought he died -- until I saw a an Instagram post Sunday morning.

He's 24, a former student who emailed me four years after class to ask about getting a beer or coffee. On determining he was queer he gushed: he praised my self-assurance, brains, looks, etc. We might've met that night had I not plans already. It's worth noting I barely remember this kid in summer 2018.

I wonder if simply not showing up is a phenomenon of the young?

Anusii are a cliche?

that sucks. definitely hit next. it's been a phenomenon of the young and old as long as i've been dating tbh. xp

Yeah, I wanted to avoid generational generalization, but a few viejos noted The Vanishing has been more prevalent in the last four years.

I've ghosted more than my share, I should note.

I have never done this, to my knowledge?

me eiths it's dumb
I'm too polite though

wassup homieslice

good morning!

Mornin' sunshine!
What's on the platter?

I'm vegetarian tonight.

sexually or culinarily?

Lady Bracknell : Well, both, if necessary, I presume!

So, I’m in one of the only two gay bars in Marbella (southern coast of Spain) right now, and the thing here is that high heeled shoes are passed around, everyone tries them on, and then they take their turn swishing down what passes for a catwalk. Pleased to report that my boy got the loudest applause of the night. We make our own entertainment.

The bar is filling up because at 4am they close the doors, bring out the ashtrays, and everyone can smoke indoors.

We will be back tomorrow for drag queen bingo.

omgggggg jealous

Oh I forgot to mention the seventy something naked woman who did her catwalk turn clutching a large stuffed teddy bear.

stop

jealz to the max

Just ended a fabulous evening with j0rdan.

yesss. what did y'all do?

we went to a sports bar so i could watch basketball while we talked about madonna

...and Mariah Carey. And my terrible non-date last week.

ok well that sounds ideal (sorry for the delay how the hell do three days go by?!)

you know i saw Madonna's Mme X tour
she could still put on a show, i just wonder if it isn't time for her to maybe think about doing something else

we had dinner with Stevie last night!! and then he came back to our place and we plied him with amaro and we talked about sheryl crow and natalie merchant and celine dion and it was just a total delight <3

Amaro! Sheryl Crow! Sounds like my kind of night.

Listen

xp what i remember from going out in l.a. (the eagle, faultline, the gold coast (rip), the levi/leather bar in the valley) was that it was always pretty mixed. but i think i remember encountering some of what you're talking about. also this was 15 years ago. our dear donna rouge might have some perspective on this.

t your friend group sounds awesome. do you think there are any general reasons why you get along more with straight writers than with gay writers?

Most of my straight male friends, tbh, I think they feel very comfortable around me to talk about topics that might be atypical in hetero-male interactivity. Sexual health, mid-life crises, masturbation habits, mental health, these are common topics between myself and my straight male friends. One of the best things about gayness is the capacity for male-male emotional intimacy, and I like that certain of my straight male friends feel comfortable engaging with me on that level

oh those are big xposts.

i know what you guys are saying, like, just because someone is gay doesn't mean we're gonna jibe - i'm looking for a personality not a sexuality and people who make their sexuality their personality are super annoying.

One of the best things about gayness is the capacity for male-male emotional intimacy, and I like that certain of my straight male friends feel comfortable engaging with me on that level

yeah this is a big part of what constitutes the intimacy with my bros. Too many straight guys back away from that sort of confidence unless it's laced with piles and piles of jokes.

Re writers: I'm part of the rock crit community, for better or worse, and while the women are powerful the straight guys still dominate.

these days when I meet new gay men I'm, to repeat, struck by how segregated they are.

i think i get what you're saying. the buzzword with my friends is "queer community". idk i've only ever seen loud geese at bars. is "queer community" "we dm each other on insta and try to do poly"? i tell ya what, i'm having a "meh" moment with poly right now. my friend is opening up his relationship and it's been a struggle and he's been talking my ear off about it and they're making a lot of progress and i'm happy for him. i'm still dealing with the fact that i lost a major romance. if i ever get involved with another person besides my sweet simple ride-or-die it's not gonna be just anyone i can tell you that. it's honestly very rare that i have real chemistry with someone else. physical type is an extremely unreliable indicator. still i've been acting like i'm "looking for someone" online lately. i think it's just an instinct to try to fill the loss.

i'm training two gay friends at the gym on saturdays and i've realized part of the appeal for them is i'm a muscle daddy. i mean, i'm me, but that's my look. and i'm ok with working that a little bit, i like it or i wouldn't look that way. but like one of them is kinda putting out "i'm interested" vibes and i'm just not. it's weird it feels lonely when you're looking for a deeper connection and guys just want to get in your pants. i realize i probably sound annoying complaining about such devastating problems lol.

meanwhile i'm fb chatting with some guy on a base in antarctica. he sent me half-nudes. and a video of him opening the latch to a pitch-black blizzard outside. he's there until october. plans on going to palm springs in december or january. "nice we make it down there occasionally." only if an extra grand suddenly dropped in my lap. i've been to palm springs quite a bit. i seem to like the types of guys who go to palm springs, who live in palm springs. bearish, boring middle class dad types who like the desert. that is who i basically am. minus the middle class part. am i destined to live in palm springs? last time i checked i didn't even like it that much. lord knows i can't afford it. it'd be a lot better than here. ok that's the end of my blues number, thanks for sticking around.

When I've introduced younger friends or tricks to them, they tell me they're surprised or are visibly uncomfortable, which is strange to me (but which I understand).

Alfred, that sucks!! I'm sorry :(

Most of my straight male friends, tbh, I think they feel very comfortable around me to talk about topics that might be atypical in hetero-male interactivity. Sexual health, mid-life crises, masturbation habits, mental health, these are common topics between myself and my straight male friends. One of the best things about gayness is the capacity for male-male emotional intimacy, and I like that certain of my straight male friends feel comfortable engaging with me on that level

I think this has been a baseline requirement for being my friend regardless of orientation ... well, diff topics, but it doesn't matter
tho it's been pointed out that there are lots of people who think of me as their friend but I am oblivious :(

and yeah my ex (ltr) is my best friend and on friendly terms with most exes (str)
I am single if that's what you call not dating or having sex

I talk to my best friends about music, movies, restaurants, clothes, vacations -- the usual banal stuff.

I can't be bothered and admit that I will get angry and resentful if one of my friends spends more than a couple of minutes on banalities ('why am I here? I would feel free rn if I was alone')
I mean it's good if they go deep on these topics and have perceptive things to say, otherwise nah

I live in the city where I grew up and a lot of my friends here are the straight people I grew up with :)
I have noticed that "queer communities" tend to be made up of transplants, or people who came here for college or something idk

I've had friend groups with high queer ratios tho. like when i was working at an occult store, that was like a family and I'd go up there on my days off just to hang out. all of the men connected to that group were gay except one (the owner was a lesbian, otherwise most of the women were straight). of the men, I was closest to the one straight guy by far. because all the gay guys hit on me relentlessly.

it's weird it feels lonely when you're looking for a deeper connection and guys just want to get in your pants.

no no I get it

so like, I think everyone's takes on this are "vmic" or at least somewhat consistent
& Alfred i get the impression from your internet persona that you are very friendly and easy to get along with, that you're generally good at finding common ground with most people and focusing on the positive things about other people and your interactions with them. it would make sense that you have a lot of friendships where you don't necessarily have a ton of stuff in common. I see you as someone who's generally empathetic and good at bridging the gaps.

one of the reasons i like kink is that it requires very explicit negotiation.

ok backing up quite a lot here sorry, but this is fucking brilliant

oh but the point was I think your friends kind of owe it to you to get over their weird hangups

I smoked some weed, and had a good idea, that the police should be defunded and formally replaced with the Big Dick Police:

911, what’s your emergency

I need dick

What’s your location

Male-male emotional Intimacy doesn’t have to be verbal tho, i am down with the kind of friendships where you just roll around on the couch and giggle a lot
Some of my best friends are dogs

xp what i remember from going out in l.a. (the eagle, faultline, the gold coast (rip), the levi/leather bar in the valley) was that it was always pretty mixed. but i think i remember encountering some of what you're talking about. also this was 15 years ago. our dear donna rouge might have some perspective on this.

also rip the faultline. what fgti describes is probably true for parts of LA but not the parts i tend to hang out in. was recently at a house party that was majority gay guys but within that was fairly mixed, at least in terms of ages and ethnic backgrounds. i used to really bristle at social situations where it was only or mostly gay men but i’ve sort of come to appreciate and enjoy it now. idk maybe my thing is most of my closest male friends have been straight guys for so long that i’m now really craving gay male friendship/connection. or something. i was also randomly thinking about straight-gay male intimacy earlier via a vis a friend I don’t really talk to anymore but i’ll return to that when i’m not about to fall asleep

I did enough dating in my 20s to know that I am not socially compatible with a huge chunk of gay men out there.

My friend group is very mixed - mostly women but plenty of straight men and a handful of gays. I know a lot of bisexual women but not many bisexual men. My friends serve different purposes - there are some I would never talk about certain things with but there's different things I would talk about with others, and collectively I am very fulfilled by them in my life. I am very lucky.

One of my best friends is in many ways a caricature of a #lad - pints, football, rock music. He's also the most sweet, thoughtful, sincere and honest person I know. He's more sensitive than any outdated stereotype of a traditional gay man.

Alfred i get the impression from your internet persona that you are very friendly and easy to get along with, that you're generally good at finding common ground with most people and focusing on the positive things about other people and your interactions with them. it would make sense that you have a lot of friendships where you don't necessarily have a ton of stuff in common. I see you as someone who's generally empathetic and good at bridging the gaps.

blushed hard when I read this, Deflatermouse, thank you. I think I have a talent for friendship. When I see someone I like I go hard and I usually know if it's gonna work out long-term. Probably why I like reading at bars.

t your friend group sounds awesome. do you think there are any general reasons why you get along more with straight writers than with gay writers?

well, i wrote a long response and then deleted it by accident, but the gist of it was: most of my close friends aren’t writers, and i am rare in the poetry world in that my partner isn’t a writer— in fact, i have never dated another writer.

as far as gay writers, about 30% of my writer friends are trans girls, about 15% are gay dudes, and the rest are cis straight men and women.

the reasons behind it are related to my general way in the world— while interested in pop music and dancing, yes, i am pretty uninterested in the other trappings of “gay life” in the world. just because something in the culture is gay doesn’t mean it holds any interest for me, and i think that for whatever reason, that sets me off from other gay dudes— i tend to fall in love with and fall into friendships with weirdos who don’t fit in.

well, i do like dressing like an absolute slut, and i love pornography and filth, but again, a lot of my gayness is more informed by punk than it is by mainstream culture.

blushed hard when I read this, Deflatermouse,

Omg sorry

Well but the point was it is evident that some of us make steeper demands than I think you do as a condition of friendship, and I’m wondering if we are then less likely to become close to straight people who are weirded out by our sexual preferences, whatever the makeup of our friend groups. or maybe it's just me lol

i am pretty uninterested in the other trappings of “gay life” in the world. just because something in the culture is gay doesn’t mean it holds any interest for me, and i think that for whatever reason, that sets me off from other gay dudes— i tend to fall in love with and fall into friendships with weirdos who don’t fit in.

Yeah. this is reminding me that one downside of making such demands is, the huge majority of people I encounter face to face are basically invisible to me. If I see them at all, I see them as a threat. well shit, I need to work on that. Tbc, I don’t care if someone “looks cool” or if they know who Jim O’Rourke is, but I am very far away from the mainstream ideologically. I’m very anti-work, anti-money, anti-consumption. I find it especially difficult to be tolerant and accepting of others whose participation in capitalism is more enthusiastic than a struggle to get by. Just anecdotally, the straight people in my life who share these values tend not to have kids and I can’t think of anyone with more than one kid. It’s a self-marginalizing stance to take in some ways and those with big families have unavoidably chosen a wider lane.

I def find friendships that are *not* based on shared interests more emotionally rewarding. When they are, I try very hard to steer conversations away from nerding out. One of the best experiences I ever had socially was a group that came together through ‘meetups with strangers’. The one thing all had in common was a willingness or eagerness to have open hearted and open minded conversations with total strangers. Taking extreme vulnerability as our starting point, almost equivalent to that trust exercise where you fall backwards and someone has to catch you. no conversational banalities ever, but surprisingly light and fun hangs for how deeply stimulating and supportive they could be.
And I think some or most people in this group would have been invisible, if not unacceptable to me otherwise - several of them were working on tech startups (ughh)!

Miami is so intimidating to me. One of my high school friends went to college in Miami and played in a kind of indie-disco-funk band down there that was very successful locally, as I understood it. On a visit to NYC he saw one of my bands play at Club Luxx or somewhere like that, and like the third song in our set was a super drone-y 10 minute psychedelic noise piece. Afterwards he said, 'oh man, I'm so jealous that you can get away with doing that kind of shit here, in Miami you have to keep everyone dancing or they won't let you play". that's the thing I always think of. That and like establishing shots of tan, fit people rollerblading in beachwear from season 4 of The Real World

That was always my impression of Miami until I actually went there, had drinks with Alfo and saw the city’s vibrant counterculture and arts scene

It’s not NYC or even Minneapolis but there is a lot of amazing shit going on, would totally live there except for the fear of underwater

Why would you worry about underwater when you have bat shit politicians living above ground here?

every time I go outside I pass by hundreds or thousands of people who are visibly struggling. just moving through their daily grind with their heads down. how much worse could it really be?

I mean, it could be way worse obv
I meant how much worse could Miami be

"hundreds or thousands of people moving trough their daily grind with their heads down, but more than half of them are fascists" would be much worse

i always liked Miami but there aren’t enough rocks to climb

That'll be my motto tonight at the gay karaoke bar

How many of you lead a majority or completely gay existence?

I ask because most of my local friends are women and straight guys. I dwell among often. When I've introduced younger friends or tricks to them, they tell me they're surprised or are visibly uncomfortable, which is strange to me (but which I understand).

― hungover beet poo (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn)

i _like_ straight people, but being around them is pretty exhausting and stressful. it's not anybody's _fault_ but i am under tremendous amounts of pressure to be a "model minority". i feel like a lot of cis allies aren't in a place to accept the reality of what a lot of people in america are going through right now. and even those of us who do... i mean what's happening to trans people is a drop in the bucket of what's going on, i do think it's important to talk to and be around people who aren't like me, and i just get preoccupied with my own shit, with my own community, so it's tough for me to reach out and support immigrants, for instance, or other people who are being oppressed by the administration.

i do feel like i'm living a "dual-role" life, even though it was the last thing i wanted. people in my community, a lot of us are very traumatized and behave in ways that... i mean i have to put up with a lot of bullshit from people in my community. i have to be a pretty supportive person to other people, because everybody around me needs a lot of support. i don't need as much support myself, but i do need support. and i don't get as much support from the people in my community, because i'm doing _better_ than most of them, because i'm not in crisis. the people who are most important in my life are, like me, carers, and those of us who are carers, we don't value ourselves. the friends i'm closest to, the friends i care most about and trust the most, are frequently people i don't see too often. because i say "how are you doing, do you want to hang out", and because they can be open with me they tell me how they're doing, that they're spending all their time supporting their friends who are in crisis, that they'd love to see me and... and i stop them there, i say look, take time for yourself, it's no good to spend all your time caring for other people. if that means we don't see each other for a while, that's ok.

i guess theoretically i could talk to people outside my community, but if i look to them to support, if i try to talk to them about what's happening, they're horrified, they fall into despair. that's not helpful to me, if i talk to people and they feel miserable and awful and feel all this guilt and shame about what america is doing to queer people. that's not really the support i'm looking for. i mean it's better than the denial, i guess, the people who can't accept that what's happening is actually happening and want to tell me that i'm being too negative, that things aren't that bad. or who want to give me pep talks and cheer me up. i don't need that because i am actually a pretty positive, upbeat person. i try to keep a fundamentally healthy attitude on these things. i just don't think that denial is a fundamentally healthy attitude.

i talked to a trans friend of mine yesterday... she's having to leave her white collar job. this is, again, something i don't really know how to talk about to cis people. working conditions are terrible for everybody, and because of the "allostatic load" of, you know, being a targeted minority, trans people get hit harder and earlier than most people. it's not like anything that's happening is fundamentally different from what anybody else is going through. this stuff is going to hit a lot of other people as hard as it's hitting us, if it's not already.

i had to quit my job a couple months ago because of the working conditions... and three months later, i'm almost to the point where i can respect myself as a human being. a job, though? i try applying to places, but you have to apply to a _lot_ of different jobs to get a single callback, and most of the jobs out there aren't that great. the friends i know who have jobs are all in government jobs, because that's the only way they can get tolerable working conditions. government jobs, disability, medicaid, this is how my community gets by. we do what we can.

i mean if you want to know where i run into "straight" people the most often it's ilx, lol. it's not the same as meeting people in person, but it is good. it helps me center myself, get myself out of the shit that's going on in our community. i wish i could spend more time around people who aren't like me... the marginalizations, the systemic lack of resources, it just means that there's so much pressure to fight over what little there is.

not saying this to be a downer. i'm actually doing really well the last couple of weeks! i have a lot to celebrate. it's just balancing that out with the more difficult things that's a challenge.

Also, correct me, please, but am I the only regular gay ILXer still single? That matters too.

― hungover beet poo (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn)

well, define 'gay' i guess. i do think of myself as "gay" (along with a whole bunch of other labels haha) and i'm single.

I def find friendships that are *not* based on shared interests more emotionally rewarding. When they are, I try very hard to steer conversations away from nerding out.

― doe on a hill (Deflatormouse)

hmmm. it's hard to say, really. most of my friendships aren't built on _specific_ shared interests, simply because, well, most of my interests are incredibly niche. i have this autistic thing where a lot of my most rewarding friendships involve taking turns infodumping over our shared interests. i genuinely enjoy listening to people talk about their special interests, _particularly_ if it's not something i know anything about. people talking about what they love and telling me _why_ they love those things, i'm here for that. gardening or cooking, as long as there's not an expectation that i'm as interested in the topic as they are, i'm happy to listen.

i will say that i'm kind of different from you in that i do try to make time for superficial conversation. i have this tendency to go super emotionally hard on anything i talk about. emotional connection can be so powerful and profound, and i'm at the point where not every human connection i have needs to be deep or profound. i'm the kind of person where... i listen to people and don't judge and so what i have happen is that people come up to me and tell me their deepest darkest secret the first time they meet me, cuz they get the sense, correctly, that i won't judge them for it. at the same time, girl, we just met, i don't want to hear about how you shot a man in reno just to watch him die, tell me about how you're preparing your garden for the coming heat wave, not because i want to hear about your garden, but because it's not a topic i feel like i need to get emotionally invested in!

i'm training two gay friends at the gym on saturdays and i've realized part of the appeal for them is i'm a muscle daddy. i mean, i'm me, but that's my look. and i'm ok with working that a little bit, i like it or i wouldn't look that way. but like one of them is kinda putting out "i'm interested" vibes and i'm just not. it's weird it feels lonely when you're looking for a deeper connection and guys just want to get in your pants. i realize i probably sound annoying complaining about such devastating problems lol.

― five six seven, eight nine ten, begin (map)

it's a legit queer problem! in multiple senses. sometimes there are people i like as friends and they make a play for me and i'm not down for it. sometimes there are people i like as friends and i make a play for them and they're not down for it. and everybody i know is very rejection sensitive, including me. then on top of that i have a _whole bunch_ of friends who i would definitely get with if we had compatible kinks or were in compatible life situations or compatible _schedules_ (i'm not a nite owl or party person). a lot of times the easiest way for me to get along with people is to say "ok look we are not going to get with each other", that way there isn't the sword of damocles thing going on. because if i get with someone and we break up then we continue to see each other regularly, like, forever. there just aren't that many of us, even in PDX.

I’m tired of infodumping, i just find it exhausting now. If someone asks me a question about a niche special interest they do not share, i just try to give a non-answer. At least irl. if they ask a follow up question i might elaborate slightly but inside i am shouting ‘oh god, why must you persist??!’ I find it hard to prioritize information. Everything seems important and i don’t know how to cut what other people probably consider extraneous detail. It’s just exhausting to think about in real time in the presence of a friend or friends. I don’t want to get caught up in it and miss opportunities to be present and offer support.

I am again down with nonverbal hangs tho. 3 or 4 years ago i hosted a silent supper, that was such a relief. I got the idea from my stuffed animals. Just enjoying their silent acknowledgement. And playing with my niece before she could talk. Such a relief, truly.

i'm the kind of person where... i listen to people and don't judge and so what i have happen is that people come up to me and tell me their deepest darkest secret the first time they meet me, cuz they get the sense, correctly, that i won't judge them for it. at the same time, girl, we just met, i don't want to hear about how you shot a man in reno just to watch him die

That’s an excellent point, and would admit the reason why it worked so well with “strangers” was that we were all, as you put it, in “compatible life situations” and that bursts the bubble in a way. Though i really do think that if someone showed up who was desperate we would have rallied around them.
The kind of interactions you’re talking about, which i also have attracted at different times in my life, I would consider that to be “crisis management” rather than friendship. 90% of the customer-facing work i did at the occult store was crisis management. Oracle readings and etc. and i think that’s my preferred venue for doing this work. Because i can never offer the kind of remediation they’re looking for when it’s just me. When it’s just little Yugi, without the cards.

sometimes there are people i like as friends and they make a play for me and i'm not down for it. sometimes there are people i like as friends and i make a play for them and they're not down for it. and everybody i know is very rejection sensitive, including me

Yeah, i think it’s good if the plays are not too obvious. so the players can save face, and the recipient can feign cluelessness to soften the blow. And there’s always the possibility they just didn’t hear you, though you know better. That’s probably controversial and maybe i only think this because it wasn’t at all the case where i used to work.

Yeah, i think it’s good if the plays are not too obvious. so the players can save face, and the recipient can feign cluelessness to soften the blow. And there’s always the possibility they just didn’t hear you, though you know better. That’s probably controversial and maybe i only think this because it wasn’t at all the case where i used to work.

― doe on a hill (Deflatormouse)

that's the approach i would prefer. honestly, though, it doesn't really work for me, speaking as both an autistic person and a lesbian. i feel like i've learned a reasonably good grasp of social cues, and a lot of the people around me, uh, really don't. example:

person: "i'm really unattractive, it makes sense that nobody's interested in me."
me: "i'm interested in you. i think you're really attractive."
them: "oh that's so sweet of you."

same person, five minutes later: "i'm really unattractive, it makes sense that nobody's interested in me."

i don't think these people are feigning cluelessness. it's just such an internalized thing among lesbians in particular, this idea that we're undesirable, to the point where a lot of people aren't even consciously doing that kind of thing. pre-emptive rejection does also "soften the blow" - in the short term. honestly, i do think i probably engage in that behavior myself, i reject people and push them away without really knowing it consciously or meaning to do it. i myself have definitely internalized the idea that other people aren't going to be attracted to me, that they're "out of my league". as far as i can tell this is a common thing, this belief lesbians have that every other lesbian in the world is "out of their league". the lack of self-confidence is astonishing. honestly, other lesbians do tell me that i have a better sense of self-confidence than most of the people they know, and sadly enough, they're probably not wrong. for instance, my response to the scenario above... yeah it feels shitty, but my overall emotional takeaway is "damn, i dodged a bullet there, it would not be good for me to be with a person who treated me like that" - which i can say because, uh, all of my relationships thus far have been with people who treated me like that! it feels shitty to be in a relationship with someone and flirt with them and get "oh, you don't really want me" as a response. both of my last two exes were convinced of their own unattractiveness to such an extent that it made intimacy difficult.

I am again down with nonverbal hangs tho. 3 or 4 years ago i hosted a silent supper, that was such a relief. I got the idea from my stuffed animals. Just enjoying their silent acknowledgement. And playing with my niece before she could talk. Such a relief, truly.

oh absolutely, this is really important to me. spending quality time in person with someone, not even doing the same thing. again, very much a neurodivergent thing - parallel work/parallel play. it really relieves a lot of the stress i feel around socializing with other people.

I’m tired of infodumping, i just find it exhausting now. If someone asks me a question about a niche special interest they do not share, i just try to give a non-answer. At least irl. if they ask a follow up question i might elaborate slightly but inside i am shouting ‘oh god, why must you persist??!’ I find it hard to prioritize information. Everything seems important and i don’t know how to cut what other people probably consider extraneous detail. It’s just exhausting to think about in real time in the presence of a friend or friends. I don’t want to get caught up in it and miss opportunities to be present and offer support.

see, i just look at a situation like that as a chance to practice my conversation skills. like you, i don't always know what's important and what's extraneous detail. i also don't know what's "common knowledge" that will come off as condescension or "mansplaining" if i try to explain it, and what's esoteric knowledge that will come off as elitist if i don't explain it. i'm not perfect at it, but i feel like i'm getting better at talking about my special interests in a way that will allow me to talk about the things that are important to me while keeping the other person engaged in the conversation. this is the kind of thing that seems to come naturally to neurotypical people, and i'm not as good at it, but i think it's kind of cool to treat conversations as a sort of lab where i can try and figure this stuff out. i'm self-critical, sure, but less in the sense of "well this is clearly the Worst Thing Ever" and more in the sense of being able to apply the framing of "these are the things about this album that work, these are the things about this album that don't work" to myself.

if i miss opportunities to be present and offer support, well... i'm not the only person in the world who can support them, and sometimes i just get burned out on spending time being there to support other people. sometimes i want to just talk to other people without it being such hard work.

jeez, I open the thread and -- wow.

"i'm really unattractive, it makes sense that nobody's interested in me."

running interior monologue when i'm pmsing

but tbh [gestures at history of romantic failures] rarely is anyone making a play for me. at least i and my ex-girlfriend think i'm hot

you are hot

person: "i'm really unattractive, it makes sense that nobody's interested in me."
me: "i'm interested in you. i think you're really attractive."
them: "oh that's so sweet of you."

same person, five minutes later: "i'm really unattractive, it makes sense that nobody's interested in me."

Look, i'm telling you, if society was run by horses we wouldn't have these kinds of problems #indefenseofhorsegirls