In 51 years I have been into a casino maybe four times, and left each one without making a transaction of any kind. Just held zero appeal to me. I don't know whether it's because I'm smart or dumb or simply immune to their appeal.
NB, I do not wish to sound boastful; I do lots of stupid things. That just doesn't happen to be one of them.
― ooh I wanna take ya to Topeka (Ye Mad Puffin), Monday, 21 November 2022 19:46 (one year ago) link
Casinos are fun but they have to be a special occasion once-every-five-years thing or it’s just depressing. Like going to a strip club for a bachelor party vs. knowing which one has the best dinner buffet.
― papal hotwife (milo z), Monday, 21 November 2022 20:05 (one year ago) link
Never been to a casino; never been to a strip club. Hoping to go my whole life with those streaks unbroken.
― but also fuck you (unperson), Monday, 21 November 2022 20:06 (one year ago) link
My limited strip club experiences — 2 for bachelor parties and 2 for journalistic purposes — also broke down into the fascinating/entertaining/depressing mixed reactions. I found them simultaneously more normal and weirder than I expected, in the sense that the banality of them itself seemed strange. But that's probably a whole different thread.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Monday, 21 November 2022 20:11 (one year ago) link
Strip clubs probably less dystopian than the U.S. in general.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Monday, 21 November 2022 20:12 (one year ago) link
Well here’s where I become everyone’s least favorite moralist again, but I think all gambling is reprehensible and it should be banned.
― poppin' debussy (the table is the table), Monday, 21 November 2022 21:13 (one year ago) link
that totally worked with alcohol iirc
― sleeve, Monday, 21 November 2022 21:18 (one year ago) link
I don’t really give a shit about arguments for it, tbh.
― poppin' debussy (the table is the table), Monday, 21 November 2022 21:22 (one year ago) link
i don't think sleeve was advocating for it, but was just pointing out that banning it would likely channel it into the creation of an even more corrupt state than we currently enjoy. that's hard to imagine, I know, but historically speaking it has happened many, many times.
― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Monday, 21 November 2022 22:11 (one year ago) link
Hitting a strip club as a gay man sucks! I got the "Ohhh, you're gay, how cuuuute!" and suddenly I was out $20 because they massaged my shoulders and arms.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 21 November 2022 22:25 (one year ago) link
I found them simultaneously more normal and weirder than I expected, in the sense that the banality of them itself seemed strange. But that's probably a whole different thread.― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Monday, 21 November 2022 20:11 (two hours ago) link
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Monday, 21 November 2022 20:11 (two hours ago) link
Not strange. It’s someone’s place of work. And honestly the craving for human contact is quite banal. This is what strippers understand.
― treeship., Monday, 21 November 2022 22:31 (one year ago) link
The industry as a whole is dystopian because strippers encounter men who are disgusting and enjoy degrading them. But this is a problem with men not stripping.
― treeship., Monday, 21 November 2022 22:32 (one year ago) link
I don’t understand the appeal of gambling though.
― treeship., Monday, 21 November 2022 22:34 (one year ago) link
lots of problems with men not stripping tbh
― ꙮ (map), Monday, 21 November 2022 22:34 (one year ago) link
Yeah, it's like me and speeding. To see these dudes race down highways going 90 in trucks the size of AT-ATs is to wish for spontaneous combustion.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 21 November 2022 22:35 (one year ago) link
Not strange. It’s someone’s place of work.
Oh yeah, it's just when it's not something you experience a lot it's odd at first to be somewhere where people are taking off their clothes in public.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Monday, 21 November 2022 22:50 (one year ago) link
As I said, I've never been to a strip club, but I was the editor of a porn magazine for five years in the early 2000s and sometimes porn actresses would come to the office, and the alacrity with which they would drop all their clothes and just walk around like that was astonishing to me.
― but also fuck you (unperson), Monday, 21 November 2022 23:04 (one year ago) link
taking yr clothes off is fun
― G. D’Arcy Cheesewright (silby), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 00:17 (one year ago) link
especially while holding a Negroni
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 00:18 (one year ago) link
I wonder if naked people ever run around furry conventions claiming to be Sphynx cats
― papal hotwife (milo z), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 00:19 (one year ago) link
Oakland has a ban on strip clubs (of any kind), which is something I've never fully understood. There's a depressing card room on San Pablo Avenue, which I visit due to the hoffbrau. But I think that's technically Emeryville.
The Hustler Club in San Francisco has a buffet lunch that's supposed to be not half-bad
― Andy the Grasshopper, Tuesday, 22 November 2022 00:24 (one year ago) link
Eating at a strip club seems kinda weird to me, but I guess it's for businessmen here for conventions? I dunno
― Andy the Grasshopper, Tuesday, 22 November 2022 00:25 (one year ago) link
Legs & Eggs baby
― papal hotwife (milo z), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 00:26 (one year ago) link
Strips clubs with all-you-can-eat buffet shrimp guarantee that the U.S. is emphatically NOT a dystopia
― Andy the Grasshopper, Tuesday, 22 November 2022 00:29 (one year ago) link
Are strip clubs in sex positive countries like sweden and finland still depressing? And if they’re not depressing, are they still erotic? And how is the shrimp?
― treeship., Tuesday, 22 November 2022 00:51 (one year ago) link
― poppin' debussy (the table is the table), Monday, November 21, 2022 9:13 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
― sleeve, Monday, November 21, 2022 9:18 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
It would be great if we didn't live in a dystopia where despair and anhedonia and isolation didn't drive people toward self-destructive behaviors so we didn't have to legislate against them bc they just weren't very popular, maybe let's have that as the vision we structure things around?
― Ima Gardener (in orbit), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 01:13 (one year ago) link
Agreed
― treeship., Tuesday, 22 November 2022 01:14 (one year ago) link
It would be great if we didn't live in a dystopia where despair and anhedonia and isolation didn't drive people toward self-destructive behaviors so we didn't have to legislate against them bc they just weren't very popular, maybe let's have that as the vision we structure things around?― Ima Gardener (in orbit), Tuesday, November 22, 2022 1:13 AM (twenty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
― Ima Gardener (in orbit), Tuesday, November 22, 2022 1:13 AM (twenty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
did this article ever get linked itt? i think about it a lot. i think there's something to it, that there's a general "baked in" reason for why we seem to love self-destructive behavior so much. ultimately i think we could really stand to balance things out in the direction that you're gesturing towards. i know that i could use a lot more love. but i also think that letting the death drive speak / having a place for it is wise and maybe even good for us. very vague i have to admit.
https://late-light.com/issues/issue-1/death-drive-nation
― ꙮ (map), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 01:45 (one year ago) link
just have to say though that you speak the truth, and i always appreciate it when you contribute to these kinds of discussions here, which are usually male dominated.
― ꙮ (map), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 01:49 (one year ago) link
otm
― sleeve, Tuesday, 22 November 2022 01:53 (one year ago) link
(in orbit, and map)
― sleeve, Tuesday, 22 November 2022 01:54 (one year ago) link
otmx2
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 03:26 (one year ago) link
i don't think despair and anhedonia and are always at the wheel, but it's pretty to think so.
― i'm right back on my shit (Hunt3r), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 03:33 (one year ago) link
also i am strongly in favor of a mission to eliminate those as controlling/dominating factors
― i'm right back on my shit (Hunt3r), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 03:34 (one year ago) link
I mean of course I’m for eliminating the conditions, and suggesting that I’m not is ludicrous.But as someone who was not raised a gambler, doesn’t gamble, and has never understood the appeal of it— this despite many other problems with addiction— I think it’s easy for me to say “ban it,” because it literally has nothing to do with any part of anything in my life. My position isn’t nuanced or studied, I’ve just always found the idea of gambling distasteful or an obvious scam.
― poppin' debussy (the table is the table), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 12:08 (one year ago) link
in orbit speaks wisdom
but sometimes (just a slight counterpoint) self-destructive behaviors can also be kinda exhilarating, like "look what I can do and still survive"
― ooh I wanna take ya to Topeka (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 13:23 (one year ago) link
Well and also the things that can become self-destructive behaviors tend to start out as simple pleasure seeking. Gambling (if you enjoy it) is a little exciting, you get a buzz from it. Same with drugs, getting high is fun. And in both cases lots of people can indulge in a little thrill-seeking without doing much damage to themselves or their lives. It's when you overlay those short-term thrills on top of existing despair/anhedonia/trauma/etc that the thrill-seeking becomes destructive, a way to escape pain rather than sprinkle some dopamine on a more solid psychological foundation. I wouldn't call any of those impulses inherently self-destructive, they're situationally self-destructive. Which makes regulating them tricky, because it's so easy to say "Well, most people can handle it," without sufficiently accounting for the damage they can do.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 13:32 (one year ago) link
Desmond Morris has a book adding a whole ev-bio cast to this discussion, which is probably discredited now and probably not helpful. Roughly, Tom Sawyer does stupid shit to get Becky Thatcher's attention.
― ooh I wanna take ya to Topeka (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 13:42 (one year ago) link
Especially when you're drunk on free (bad) booze.
I've only had two casino experiences, one in Atlantic City and one in Reno. I thought both were equal parts fascinating, entertaining, and depressing.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Monday, November 21, 2022 1:33 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
This pretty nicely describes my one casino experience, in Ocean Pines, Maryland in 2014.
It was almost comical how manipulative the whole thing was. It’s easy to see how people get played.
I went in with $10, which was to be the extent of my money to wager on slot machines. Stuck to that, and ultimately left with the same about of money.
― The Triumphant Return of Bernard & Stubbs (Raymond Cummings), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 13:51 (one year ago) link
“About the same amount of money” - maybe it was low $9.57 or so.
My grammar is awful this week.
― The Triumphant Return of Bernard & Stubbs (Raymond Cummings), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 13:52 (one year ago) link
The best account I've read of professional gambling was an interview with a guy who was a longtime casino grinder. He had a simple system, he started out every day with $1,500. He knew the games he was best at or had the best odds, and he would play those until he either lost all his money or doubled it. Sometimes took all day, sometimes he'd be done in a half-hour, but either way he would walk away. At the time — I think this was like 20 years ago I read this — he said he grossed about $75k a year. Which seemed OK if you just really liked hanging around casino but struck me as not a lot of fun.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 14:26 (one year ago) link
Anyway, to connect all this back to the thread title, I think one definition or at least symptom of a dystopian society is that it uses these short-term thrills — gambling, drugs, bread, circuses — in the way addicts do, to distract from or paper over abysses of need and hurt, rather than dealing with the underlying damages.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 14:28 (one year ago) link
Absolutely and in orbit was otm earlier about motivations towards these behaviors on the individual level.
But the story milo first posted was about how even (some) public universities have become like private equity firms, treating the people they are supposed to be educating and caring for as a constantly replenishing population of marks, as a resource to be mined. And yeah student loans and other terrible things mean that isn't nec new—universities are on a long and steady neoliberal decline—but the gangster mentality of pushing gambling on students because the already disgustingly over-funded athletic program gets a cut is still a little shocking to me.
― rob, Tuesday, 22 November 2022 14:59 (one year ago) link
Y'all I literally smoke cigarettes, I understand death drives and exhilaration and have quite a lot of contempt for myself as evidenced by my poor life choices over the years. I'm just saying, on the whole, if we took care of people more they would kill themselves less, including by gambling away their futures for a thrill or possibly as the only prospect of escaping financial ruin by winning a fantasy amount of money. tipsy otm above.
― Ima Gardener (in orbit), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 15:04 (one year ago) link
Gambling indeed comes with a major endorphin rush when you win, and yet it's hard to walk away when you lose. That stupid cliche on TV/movies where someone just makes another bet to try to make back their first is pretty real - your confidence in winning the next bet shoots up after a loss, the need to "not lose" supercedes preservation. And it's how I lost thousands once.
I struggle with it - I broke down crying once after losing money I shouldn't have been betting , and angrily destroyed a laptop another time after another loss.
When you have a lot of disposable income, if you're not full-on addicted, you may be able to self-regulate enough to win a little money and not dent your savings. But the moment your situation changes financially (as mine did due to my changing life situation two years ago), all these habits are still ingrained in you, and your brain isn't necessarily going to let you pull back. Hence why I did some stupid shit last year that I'm still upset about.
I've dealt with it by now only allowing myself longshot bets (i.e. parlays, guessing scores) where you bet $20 and win $1000. Haven't hit yet but also have stopped big wagers.
― Fash Gordon (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 15:58 (one year ago) link
The other thing = winning a small bet is an easy gateway to thinking "why don't I add another zero into the next one? I could solve my debt with one bet" type fantasy leaps
― Fash Gordon (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 15:59 (one year ago) link
feeling you on all that. I have successfully quit video poker gambling for over 3 years now, but I still buy the occasional lottery ticket
― sleeve, Tuesday, 22 November 2022 16:04 (one year ago) link
Yeah, I also want to make clear that I have a lot of empathy for addicts of all sorts— I mean, I smoked a quarter pack of cigs on Saturday night, and I nearly died in 2019 of cancer. I don't usually smoke, but sometimes I just desire that deathly pleasure.
My main qualm is with the industry and culture of gambling, particularly as it is tied to sport, and when my kneejerk reaction is "ban it," I am mostly reacting against those elements, not against those who gamble (with problems or without).
― poppin' debussy (the table is the table), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 16:12 (one year ago) link
going to the horsetrack is the only form of gambling i like, but i find that so different than the casino, very relaxing, horses are chill, you can really get through an afternoon just placing little bullshit $1-$5 bets and not lose much, plus with horses you'll probably get lucky once. i typically lose about $20 over the course of 10 races
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 22 November 2022 16:27 (one year ago) link