Let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-workers

inveterate self-aggrandizing bullshitters are everywhere in education. and they always fail up

maybe that's also true of college professors and public service jobs in general

actually maybe that's just the human condition, idk

― the late great, Thursday, January 26, 2023 10:57 AM (four days ago)

human condition imo ... one of my nonprofit clients recently hired a finance manager who claimed they had expertise in all the things ... over the past couple months, this person has issued authoritative statements on various topics that are consistently wrong. Like, factually wrong. This person is being paid twice what I am being paid. This person is also not really doing their job? As in, most of the tasks requiring technical expertise have now become tasks assigned to me. The culture of this nonprofit is very much about the person managing the work actually does a lot of the work themselves, so it is feeling like "not a good fit" ... this is the fourth person they have hired in the past 6 months to do this work. The previous three were even more incompetent.

I get the sense that this person is used to working in a more institutional/corporate environment and not for a volunteer run nonprofit that is like Murphy's Law incarnate

the dramatic landscape at my workplace is largely shaped by a long simmering antagonism between my manager (breathtakingly incompetent human silo who repels all collaboration) and coworker (hard-working and passionate but maybe a little too attached). i very much side with the coworker but sometimes find it useful to be a little more neutral because it's easier to sidestep / ignore the long-winded email chains etc. the truth is that no one here (gov agency) has very much actual work they have to do, but everyone wants to feel like they are important so this kind of bullshit just naturally emerges i think. i'm realizing that it really doesn't work for me to get ensnared in all of it - sometimes i don't have much of a choice, but often i do, and the choice sometimes feels like a "bad" one - to check out - but it's actually good. it's weird having a job where no one really has to do much but everyone pretends that they do. there's a lot of making stuff up to do that gets praised. funny how just not doing anything, even if you can get away with it, is stressful in its own way.

i try and "do 1 thing" at least every day lol, otherwise i feel way too disconnected.

that was less about stressful coworkers and more about my bizarre job and possible adhd-related work avoidance.

it's weird having a job where no one really has to do much but everyone pretends that they do.

omg this is hilarious but also .... I can see how it can get super toxic.

some middle schoolers are watching a nutrition video about eating less carbs and more legumes in my classroom (rainy day PE class) ... the narrator keeps saying "when you eat a nut" and this stupid annoying idiot teacher keeps giggling

oh wait, that stupid annoying idiot teacher is me

(i know nuts are not technically legumes)

peanuts are

if you ask me an hour ago if I have 5 minutes to talk, and I say yes, and you don't respond for an hour, my "yes I'm available" is no longer valid.

O. T. MMMMM

So I've spent most of the day trying to herd cats enough to schedule a meeting for next week between two researchers, two outside consultants and my boss. Finally got things nailed down enough between the outside consultants and sent the two researchers a list of seven possible times. At 3:20 I sent out the email with the list of time. 3:25 - Researcher A responds and says they can only do Time Slot B and Time Slot D. 3:36 - Researcher B responds and says they can only do Time Slot D. Great, at least we all overlap on one! 3:40 - sent out the invite to everyone. 3:48 - Researcher B's assistant declines invitation and says, "sorry, Researcher B has now filled up that time slot".

So I am back to square one for the week after next because, of course, Researcher B is the most critical stakeholder to be at this meeting.

I don't think these people deserve to have a meeting

The double/triple/quadruple time slot meeting bookings at my company are completely out of control.However, I particularly hate meetings more than a half long and they all are but I realized if I’m triple/quadruple booked I don’t have to go to any meetings because everyone just assumes I’m in one of the other meetings. Problem solved.

okay, I think I truly get the thing we were talking about earlier on this thread about the "missing stair" ... I understood it in concept before, but now I have first hand experience with this, and good fucking lord, map (I know you have one at work) I truly empathize. In fact, I think map's "missing stair" co-worker is similar to the new person at one of my client sites ...

this person was hired two months ago as "finance co-ordinator" and I know they exaggerated their qualifications (in terms of what they know how to do), the only question is by how much, at this point. This person is, of course, an independent contractor. And this place isn't used to having paid staff. They are volunteer-run, and no one is full-time, and thus there is next to no oversight/accountability when someone doesn't do what they are supposed to be doing. Because this person was a friend of one of the core volunteers and was familiar with one of the projects this place does, I think everyone trusted that they cared about the place, and they would "fit in" and do the work and not waste time and charge for wasting time.

At this point it's almost comical. I was doing a fairly limited set of financial tasks for them. And now, because either this person doesn't know how to do things, doesn't want to do things because they believe these things are "not their job" or are coming up with excuses to delay doing things ... I am doing the majority of this person's work.

I'm going to stop there ... otherwise I can fill the screen with examples and more venting Neando style <3

yikes - yeah it kind of sucks to have to have some of the 'checks and balances' in businesses regarding accountability because often time people who are doing their shit get caught in the crosshairs and it can alienate them. but on the other hand, if you don't have any, it kind of opens up the door for these 'missing stair' folk to come in and essentially not do the majority of their tasks and there aren't any levers to pull to do anything about it. which tbh I understand why that happened when you're volunteer-run and now have paid staff.

so what's the next step - is there someone you can discreetly report it to?

So a coworker is getting ready for her maternity leave and getting all her ducks in a row, understandably. She's pretty thorough and detail oriented, so of course she'd put a lot of thought into this. What I don't like is learning that, previously unbeknownst to me, she has volunteered me (in meetings that I did not, and would never be expected, to attend!) to take over tasks and attend meetings that are normally her responsibility.

Which isn't to say that I wouldn't help with some of this stuff, but maybe have a conversation with me before you volunteer my time and efforts to people?

that's pretty standard SOP - any time I'm missing a significant length of time I have a meeting with whomever my backups are going to be and talk about tasks they'll be taking on, and I document it in a chart. and that way if there's any disconnect about any of the tasks, like that person doesn't think they should be doing some of them, we can talk it out and come to an agreement.

I'm sure something as life-changing as maternity leave, which is overwhelming, probably had her overlook that step (not that I would know nor could I fairly comprehend). but it is indeed important to talk to people about you expect them to do in their absence before it's communicated broadly. I don't even list people on my OOO messages as backups unless they've given me permission.

lol jon, and ugh, sorry ... and thank you Neando ... the missing stair recently attempted to assign even more of their work to me, and I had to say, "You know, when I said I could do x,y,z that you are now putting my name next to, that was before we determined that I was also going to be doing a,b,c, and unfortunately, I don't have the capacity to do x,y,z anymore."

the other complication with "missing stair" is that previously I had done her job (partly through another org I worked for, as in the client wasn't paying for those hours, the org I work for was subsidizing that labor). I quit last summer. But now I am back in a limited capacity after a bunch of stuff got resolved. ... and she is this client's 4th attempt at replacing me.

or rather (sorry for so many posts) my org decided to take a break from working with this client because there were constant conflicts with some new volunteers, who are now gone.

good for you enforcing that boundary early. this isn't an 80s sitcom where someone can randomly just dump files on your desk and walk away.

it's funny how there is a sizable group of people (which includes me) that actually hates delegating for a variety of reasons, and there are some people who feel so comfortable with it they forget they're supposed to be keeping some of the work for themselves too.

xxpost lol don't you love when you leave a position and then you still wind up doing it anyway? hoping they're not taking advantage of the fact that you know how to do their job.

xxpost lol don't you love when you leave a position and then you still wind up doing it anyway?

this is definitely not the first time this has happened to me, lol!

hoping they're not taking advantage of the fact that you know how to do their job.

how would you categorize being condescending and acting like they know more than me?

It reminds me of this anecdote a friend told me. He's a musician in the free improv scene and used to play with this old German musician, Wolfgang Fuchs. And Fuchs would say, "I'm sorry, you can be an asshole or a bad musician, but you cannot be both."

In other words, if this person was nice and appreciative and modest, I would not be as annoyed about doing her work for her.

that's even worse. gahhhhhhhhhhh, you have wayyyyyyyy more patience than me w/ someone like that. that's the type of person I used to have to take a walk around the block before msging...and after msging.

has anybody else also reported issues w/ her? or are you the only one who would notice due to working closely alongside.

well, at least I'm not the only one, that does kinda make things better? ... Basically, all the volunteers in the Finance WG have started a private slack channel for complaining about this person.

oh damn. that truly is a missing stair.

it only makes things somewhat better but i was thinking more of a 'coalition that could approach leaders and say 'we need to talk'"

However, the hiring decision was made by "the board" -- the majority of whom don't really interact with this person, and one of the board members is the friend that proposed that they hire her. so, the board just wants everyone to get along, do the work, and not bring drama to the board.

i think the stated goal of the private slack channel is to formulate the approach to the board ... as in, "we need to talk about a, and it's NOT okay, and here's why"

that's actually a great idea!

*remove superfluous 'actually', didn't mean to sound condescending...posted too fast

yeah, there are some things this org is good at ... they often have very good ideas. They regularly do not follow through on them.

so our SSO link to our training website stopped working for us two weeks ago. I started a ticket and all the person working on it has done for two weeks is the following song and dance:

"Are you still having this issue?" (you mean the one I've emailed you about multiple times this week? yeah it didn't resolve overnight on its own)

"Weird, i can't replicate the issue!" (that's it? you're not willing to help figure this out?)

"Can you share what logins/accounts you're using?" (I've done this five times now, including step by step screenshots - the same ones each time)

This is normally the point where I ask for a meeting but this person works overnight hours, so they're usually leaving when I'm arriving - typically we have to work meetings out in advance so I can log on early or they can stay late.

finally today, we did that after days of begging, and this person finally has promised to take it to the appropriate team to investigate. after two weeks!

I really don't want to be that guy, but this coworker crying at her desk three to four times a week is really grating on my nerves.

I kind of wish I didn't know her at all because I would normally assume some very serious personal issues leading to this much public and demonstrative crying, but she also very loudly lets us know that it's "email A" or "email B" (of which I am often also copied on and spend probably more time than is healthy trying to parse out the upsetting part, but never can) that is the trigger. I just... can't. I think she just hates her job and allows it to hit her in a very raw and personal way... I just wish she'd quit for her own mental health, let alone mine and others in our open office who have expressed similar concerns.

is this the same one who constantly complains about how awful things are or is this a different miserable coworker?

Same one.

Cried twice today already.

If her manager isn't terrible, is it worth cluing them in? Something's really messed up

Her direct supervisor is actually kind of terrible, though he seems to be aware of some of the extent as he's made passing remarks about how she's always upset.

it's a tough situation because I've seen multiple instances of people in my own workplace who are upset and share it loudly with those around them, and the motivations were worlds apart. One was an actual 'missing stair' themselves, a very manipulative person who attempted to improve their standing by imagining transgressions (when they were themselves toxic)...and a friend who was often bullied by the toxic alpha-male Executives in a department full of headhunting jackasses who would go crying to her manager if she did one thing they didn't like. one day, she just broke down and couldn't stop.

your situation doesn't immediately sound like either of these, really, though it's hard to tell without knowing more, though I wonder if the direct supervisor being terrible plays into it at all. there are always co-workers who will make things not about them about themselves and loudly grouse, but...there are also those who are experiencing legit, intense distress on the job, sometimes from toxic people, and if the person they report to doesn't take it seriously, they don't feel empowered to do anything other than try and loudly react to it, to get it out of their system, or hope that someone will rescue them.

but it is still disruptive to a workplace environment, for reasons beyond just distraction - my natural reaction to someone crying is to want to comfort them, and not pretend it isn't happening, but if it's happening all of the time, one can't do that without hampering their own ability to get work done, and there's always the fear that the person will then come to you directly with these things and possibly test boundaries, which isn't good for either of you in a work environment.

is there an HR that could be approached? idk how I would feel about doing that without her knowledge, but if there's any hint that the direct supervisor might weaponize what they are told about this employee, I could understand not wanting to go that route.

btw by not pretend it isn't happening that was not a jab or dig at you jon, more my expression of how I feel uncomfortable doing nothing when someone is crying next to me. that doesn't mean I think doing something is always the appropriate course of action in all contexts, its just my natural instincts to 'feel' as if I'm doing wrong if I do nothing.

Yeah, I wouldn’t get involved. Maybe she has some bad problems in her real life where she can’t show emotions like that (not wanting to alarm kids or whatever) and something small at work just tips her over. Get a good pair of noise canceling headphones, maybe?

I'm anxiously awaiting tomorrow because a project in which I'm ONLY responsible for the training portion of goes live, and it's equal parts training agents and "training the trainer", the actual team managers who will be responsible for handling any issues post-live. this group has mostly ignored three weeks of exerted pleas from me to spend the time after training re-reviewing materials, asking questions, reviewing job aids, so they can be ready to support.

so I'm spending today being Helicopter Neanderthal, making sure they did all these things that are usually routine, which is frankly something I don't like being on the receiving end of, so I really hate doing.

its just my natural instincts to 'feel' as if I'm doing wrong if I do nothing.

same here. though I was in a position a while back where I did intercede and it ended up coming back on me in this totally weird/dysfunctional way.

though, sadly, it is good to know that jon just has one very demonstratively unhappy coworker and not two ... when I thought he might be talking about two different people, I was wondering, "Wtf is wrong with jon's workplace?!!!"

in my world of annoying coworkers ... the missing stair from last week? ... well, two of the volunteers that are on the team that the missing stair "coordinates" publicly complained about her. My first response was diplomatic ... I too am a paid contractor and I don't want to get involved, but if you want professional evaluation of this person's work (or lack thereof), I can give it. ... but then I went very much in character and made a list of the things that if I were in her role I would be doing, and noted that she was doing hardly anything on these tasks, and in one case, was actively blocking it getting done.

My actual coworker (my colleague that works for the org that I work for that is helping this other org that hired the missing stair) ... did his classic thing where he wrote a lengthy message which addressed most of the same concerns/points I had already made, but didn't acknowledge that I had already said the same thing ... but at least this time he did initially say he hadn't read everyone else's responses before adding his own ... and compared to this org's missing stair, my coworker is incredibly great.

And I know this isn't the "compliment your actually pretty okay coworkers" thread but ... in the past week, he did actually follow through on the next step for this project that we had gotten a grant for that we hadn't really been doing much work on, and I was lowkey getting anxious about having to report on our progress to the funder ... so things are kinda looking up?

So it sounds like missing stair may be discovered soon, sounds like the rumblings are increasing.

Hoping that some of it will drift to the board so that when you make your coordinated approach, they already have a whiff.

Lol at replying prior to reading responses, I read emails in reverse order to prevent that.

yeah, the volunteers basically expressed their concerns to the board and at least one of the board members has engaged in that conversation and they were discussing the flaws in the hiring process and oversight.

One thing this org is great about is ... finding fault with each other and complaining about it.

things are less tense than they were last summer when every day there would be a minor difference of opinion that would be called out as a racist microaggression, gaslighting, or white supremacy culture.

Been a crazy busy day for me, not ignoring the posts, particularly appreciated your thoughtful post Neando. This particularly stuck out for me:

but it is still disruptive to a workplace environment, for reasons beyond just distraction - my natural reaction to someone crying is to want to comfort them, and not pretend it isn't happening, but if it's happening all of the time, one can't do that without hampering their own ability to get work done, and there's always the fear that the person will then come to you directly with these things and possibly test boundaries, which isn't good for either of you in a work environment.

This is the thing, when it first started happening, I would awkwardly try to offer a little sympathy and empathy, but I think that was a mistake, because now she feels comfortable with the latter - if I (and others in our office, tbf) don't acknowledge and ask her what's wrong, she'll wait until the senior leaders are out for a meeting or whatever, then come dump it all on me anyway. It puts me in an awkward position for sure and, considering how often it happens, I really run out of pat things to say. I know I'm not imagining this, another co-worker has explicitly told me that she purposely schedules as many meetings and tasks outside of the office as possible every day, so she can avoid her.

I guess I'm more venting than anything, because I really don't know what to do. sunny's point about headphones is a good one, I typically have my earbuds in when I'm able, but she will straight up just come stand and look at me until I take them out an acknowledge her. I'm kinda cursing my past self for being empathetic enough to open the door like this in the first place. HR probably isn't a good idea because their first response is always to reach out to direct supervisor to follow-up so, effectively, it would be like going to him directly anyway and I really fear how he would punish her for this. Right now I'm just mostly silently hoping she hits a point where she quits.

Like a fairly specific example of how tough it is - I just walked back into the office from a meeting and said "hi" as I walked by her desk (she's the only other one in this afternoon) and her word for word response was, "don't worry, you didn't miss anything, I've just been sitting here crying X's latest email". And I hate myself a little for it, but my initial thought is, "oh christ, here we go again, I can't do this".

You could try telling her to quit