Posts you had second thought about and decided not to post - put them here

xp that's true as well of course, but I think there's something specific in what motivates this particular kind of sexual assault that is also self-debasing. When the Louis CK stuff came out it reminded me of this thing Marc Maron would always say about how comedians are people afraid of being laughed at who become comedians so they can control when/how people laugh at them, I think the same is true of public masturbators, but to feel like they control when/how people are disgusted by them

i want to control when/how people are disgusted by me too!

The psychology is the same as any other form of sexual assault. They do not respect the autonomy or dignity of their victims. They want to hurt them in some way. So they do.

^^ this, and also some people find other people's obvious discomfort titillating, which is another standard feature of sexual assault

Yeah you know what, there could be less devil’s advocating about the inner thoughts of guys who drop racial slurs on air or expose themselves to women

ya'll ever see that michel gondry film _human nature_?

(spoilers incoming if you haven't seen it)

(but it's over 20 years old, so i don't feel the need to hide the text)

anyway, that part where patricia arquette's character finds puff for the first time in the wild and when she finally gets close enough to him to try to initiate communication, he immediately starts wankin it. ignorantly, almost unwillingly - like that's the sort of uncivilized mentality i imagine goes into it. except, even worse because a world famous music producer and dj does know better. this cretin just doesn't care.

last note, very tmi-
i know i'm not a typical "MAN" but wow, i completely do not understand how other dudes can get it to work in that scenario. i'm thinking logistics: how do you make sure your pants/other clothes aren't in the way? AREN'T YOUR HANDS DIRTY? what happens if it "leaks" onto unwanted things?? do you, like, point it in the assaulted's direction? so many questions. besides the moral issues it raises, this is a true "wtf" for me.

yeah i'm not about rehabbing unconsensual masturbators. the one time it happened to me, I was picking up the co-worker and he began watching porn and doing it right next to me. and began asking me to do it myself and I angrily said no, and then he said "well can I at least see your dick" and I screamed at him.

i really shouldn't have given him a ride at that point but I was 23 and scared of the guy.

Yeah you know what, there could be less devil’s advocating about the inner thoughts of guys who drop racial slurs on air or expose themselves to women

― TY FRANCE HATES TEXAS CONFIRMED (gyac), Monday, 5 June 2023 16:47 (forty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I don't know why you'd read that as 'advocating' on behalf of guys who expose themselves to women? I said that it's ultimately about control and power

When the Louis CK stuff came out it reminded me of this thing Marc Maron would always say about how comedians are people afraid of being laughed at who become comedians so they can control when/how people laugh at them, I think the same is true of public masturbators, but to feel like they control when/how people are disgusted by them

_Yeah you know what, there could be less devil’s advocating about the inner thoughts of guys who drop racial slurs on air or expose themselves to women

― TY FRANCE HATES TEXAS CONFIRMED (gyac), Monday, 5 June 2023 16:47 (forty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink_

I don't know why you'd read that as 'advocating' on behalf of guys who expose themselves to women? I said that it's ultimately about control and power

I think the psychology here is something like

I think the psychology here is something like

I think the psychology here is something like

a couple of people were saying that they don't understand why guys do this, and whenever a story like this comes up it seems several people will say that they don't understand why guys do this, that it's incomprehensible to them, which was why I responded, because it doesn't seem particularly incomprehensible to me?

Guess we can’t have second thoughts anymore

Is there a need?

― TY FRANCE HATES TEXAS CONFIRMED (gyac)

ok i'm gonna challops here, yeah! i think there is! this isn't one-off behavior, this is something a lot of guys do. i don't whip out my tits and start fondling them in front of other people. to me challenging patriarchy means deconstructing patriarchal behaviors - and i'd call masturbating in front of people without their _enthusiastic consent_ a basically patriarchal behavior. NOT TO SAY THAT WOMEN DON'T DO THIS, patriarchy is _system_, women can act (and many women do act) to reinforce patriarchy and men can be victims of patriarchy.

maybe if mods want to add hidden text tags to the explanation if the discussion is triggering -- would that alleviate the concern? But I agree with Kate -- I genuinely think it's worth discussing, and I don't think soref or anyone was actually defending this. This is the seconds thoughts thread. Having this discussion on the #metoo thread is something I felt was inappropriate, which is why I posted my "idgi" on this thread.

just wanted to say- so sorry you had to endure that, neanderthal. i'm being a little flippant in here, however it's no laughing matter and you definitely didn't deserve it.

Will never tire of adults whining about not being “allowed to…” or “guess we can’t” when criticised. I eyerolled at the discussions, that’s it.

so your eyerolls can actually dictate text to be posted on ILX? That's some amazing tech you got there!

Here to say that it does help when potentially triggering content is behind a spoiler/buffer/hidden text. This includes a lot of things for a lot of people so obvs hard to apply universally — in a convo about SA I think it’s a good measure.

I just hate when I check out a band like this on t.v. or Youtube and I get that horrible feeling of embarrassment. I wish I could unsee it. They are just so tedious and not good at what they are doing. That attempt to be epic and theatrical and "meaningful" a la the cringe-y Coldplay or Arcade Fire. And their singer really does take fan identification to new heights. Literally anyone pulled from the audience would and could do a similar workmanlike job of badly expressing awkward emotions. Maybe it would be better if I listened with my eyes closed? So that I don't have to see all that strain and heavy lifting? Strain and heavy lifting to play a song that doesn't even begin to move for what seems like forever! I doubt it though. Yuck. Makes me want to wash my mouth out with a Mekons CD or something.

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Shit sorry not sure how to turn that off. Anyway, holy shit it's scott! Hope you're doing well.

scott! super good to see you!

I was just about to say "Is scott back?"

on the triggering content note, if anybody would feel better if my personal story upthread was behind a hidden text field, I'm ok with that. i didn't consider that when I posted.

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Who fuckin' cares why they do it?

people who fuckin' want to know why people do horrible things

I mean, sure, but how much brainpower do you want to spend trying to figure out why men do terrible things? A lot of the time, it boils down to, They can get away with it. Maybe that's a better place to spend brainpower.

Bill_Tench.gif

Exactly, look at the massive amount of literature on serial killers or the roots of the third reich. There's a strong desire among many people to learn about stuff like that, in a lot of cases because it is so far outside of how their own brains operate, so they are grappling with how such messed up mindsets come about. But yes, I do think "I did it because I could get away with it" is an underrated motivation.

It can be naive to boil down every enemy / bad person motivation as "because: evil". Whether you get anywhere productive by being more curious about it than that is entirely situational.

Exactly, look at the massive amount of literature on serial killers or the roots of the third reich. There's a strong desire among many people to learn about stuff like that, in a lot of cases because it is so far outside of how their own brains operate, so they are grappling with how such messed up mindsets come about. But yes, I do think "I did it because I could get away with it" is an underrated motivation.

― Muad'Doob (Moodles)

i think a lot of people would like to _think_ the third reich is far outside of how their brains operate but i'm not sure the evidence available now necessarily backs that up :(

I think Hannah Arendt buried that idea.

[after catching a sniper who has killed four innocent people]

Sniper : Don't you want to know why?

Horatio Caine : You just killed four innocent people, you're evil, you enjoy death, I hope you enjoy your own.

Lmao.

As the person who triggered this round of soul searching, let me clarify: it’s not that deep. I just meant I personally don’t enjoy reading dipshit analysis of sensitive topics which ilx is at best crass and at worst openly contemptuous towards. You can relax now. Just dismiss my post if it upsets you. It’s fine.

I don't often agree with gyac (or she with me), but I agree with her 100% on this. There really is no need to "get inside the head" of someone who wants to jack off in front of unsuspecting/unwilling strangers (or worse yet, subordinates), and the desire to "understand" such people is the mark of an asshole, not an empath.

i think a lot of people would like to _think_ the third reich is far outside of how their brains operate but i'm not sure the evidence available now necessarily backs that up :(

Well yes, that's true too.

the mark of an empath will not come out in normal wash

I really can't believe purported smart men give a shit about the subtleties of racists and fascists.

ok i'm gonna challops here, yeah! i think there is! this isn't one-off behavior, this is something a lot of guys do. i don't whip out my tits and start fondling them in front of other people. to me challenging patriarchy means deconstructing patriarchal behaviors - and i'd call masturbating in front of people without their _enthusiastic consent_ a basically patriarchal behavior. NOT TO SAY THAT WOMEN DON'T DO THIS, patriarchy is _system_, women can act (and many women do act) to reinforce patriarchy and men can be victims of patriarchy.

post booms imo

Who fuckin' cares why they do it?

― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Monday, June 5, 2023 3:55 PM (forty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I do -- when I was a young man this happened to me several times: on Greyhound buses, in public restrooms, on un-busy streets. Dudes would yell "hey! hey, you!" and I'd look and they'd either unzip or it'd turn out they were already jackin it. Men do this to people -- some men do. It was vaguely traumatic for me but kinda small change compared to the other shit in my life at the time. I'm super interested in parsing the meaning of this behavior, in what ways we can talk about it that might prevent other people from doing it, in constructive conversations. I don't think "just say those people are fuckin animals and move on" is really useful or helpful. It's absolutely a patriarchal/kyriarchial thing and subjecting the behavior to revolutionary analysis is not only useful but vital, I also get how people might not wanna read it.

(I should say, I use "young man" because that's how I think of myself then but this is when I'm 11, 12, 13 years old.)

I agree that "why do abusers engage in abuse?" is an important question worth addressing. I also think it HAS been addressed, extensively, in our discourse for years and years now and while that doesn't mean it's been somehow "solved" it does imo mean that a constructive conversation about the topic should start from somewhere stronger than "well here's my theory". It also shouldn't be the immediate sole focus when news of abuse comes out, which is why I'm glad soref didn't post this on the original thread it was meant for.

Re: exposure, I am myself interested in this topic, but exclusively in the context of "talking about traumatic childhood experiences with my therapist" and "reading research papers/well-researched articles". It is interesting but this here is the wrong forum for it, imho.

i guess for me the downside of what i'll call the "rawhide" approach to abusers is that it sort of presupposes the _existence_ of a just society. like, you know, masturbating non-consensually in front of someone else is a clear violation of moral norms, if someone does that just...

just what, exactly? i mean what do you _do_ with someone like louis c.k.? or whoever the latest guy is, or paul rubens (or maybe paul rubens doesn't count to you!), or...

because the truth is that _not_ everyone has the same moral norms, some people _are_ of the opinion that just because someone non-consensually masturbates in front of their employees doesn't mean you shouldn't see them in concert, some people will be like "come on! they're _funny!_". and if i have to deal with _that_ sort of moral reasoning, you know, why should i draw the line at the moral reasoning of someone who non-consensually masturbates in front of someone else??

and i can choose not to, i can choose to say "well anybody who does that is wrong and anyone who makes excuses for someone who does that is wrong and..."

and what? it's me against the world? i don't _have_ to make compromises, i don't _have_ to spend a lot of time slowly explaining to well-meaning cis people why they shouldn't buy the harry potter game, but to some extent i _can_, and i feel like it's of benefit to me to do so. and if i'm going to do that, i have a hard time doing that without getting into the motivations and mindset of the person who is doing The Bad Thing.

of course it's going to be different for other people, and there is a question of appropriate venue. the original thread itself, i agree, probably not the place for that discussion. here? to me this is a good place, this is a thread that's kind of implicitly _for_ metadiscussion.

to be fair, paul rubens was jacking it in a porn theater, which seems like an appropriate venue for that sort of behavior

Let me just say, I posted that above in a moment of exasperation because I for one am tired of giving that much head space to the motivations of predators. I've spent more than half my life in it, it hasn't brought me any closer to understanding.

My thoughts exactly. I thought your post was fine and otm.

Likewise, you said it much more elegantly than I did.

I kind of resent the implication that a lack of interest in going over this again means you must subscribe to a worldview where some people are driven by pure evil and it's totally incomprehensible that feels like a huge strawman

I don't see anyone implying that here.

It can be naive to boil down every enemy / bad person motivation as "because: evil"

can we start a separate "this is the thread where we strawman" thread for this latest detour