Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

As requested. WmC do you want to close the other thread?

Yair Wallach, who is an Israeli academic at SOAS very much not sympathetic to Likud/Bibi, is a good source on twitter atm, but like all the content out there atm, proceed at your own risk.

He retweeted this video of a young woman from one of the kibbutzes (kibbutzim?) that was attacked earlier:

By far the most powerful Israeli response I have seen.

This 19 year old girl survived the horrific massacre in Kibbutz Be’eri.

This is her message to her fellow Israelis and to the world.

Watch the whole thing.pic.twitter.com/qSPKZX4pzg

— Benzi Sanders (@BenzionSanders) October 14, 2023

Thanks, gyac.

Chotiner and Sari Bashi, the program director at Human Rights Watch:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-humanitarian-catastrophe-in-gaza

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W43C8xhh5E

Sam & Emma interviewing Omar Shakir, Israel & Palestine Director at HRW this morning

looks like David Dayen in there too

Yes, but trying to ask a question of the guest when Sam is in interview mode is a tall order

Why is our political class so invested in suppressing criticism of the apartheid regime? The answer is obvious. Western states support Israel in order to maintain their power at a crucial crossroads of world trade. Challenging that power is impermissible, because any attempt to hold Israel accountable for its crimes is – by definition – an attempt to hold our own states accountable for their involvement in them. Not only are our rulers prepared to let Israel level Gaza; they will even provide it with diplomatic cover and military supplies.

https://newleftreview.org/sidecar/posts/impending-genocide

As noted, I know numerous IRL people with Israeli flag avatars saying that they stand with Israel no matter what.

Plus I know IlXorz and others who almost uniformly condemn Israel as a brutal apartheid state that continues to use "but the Holocaust" as a laminated carte blanche for every atrocity the IDF wishes to commit. (There is a bit of a strawman in there but that's another topic for another time.)

I have met exactly zero people in between. I know it is not about me and/or my feelz. And I don't love "both sides"ing US politics either. The discourse is polarized and will remain so.

Absolutely no-one has talked about this situation at work, there's been no conversation about it at all, maybe people don't talk about it at work in the US either I don't know.

No offence Tom but that was a post I was hoping could be left behind in the old thread

xp, thank you for that gyac, incredibly moving. I also recommend the NYTimes Daily from today on the situation on the ground in gaza from the perspective of people caught in it, difficult listening:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/16/podcasts/the-daily/gaza-israel.html

(the ep labeled "Voices from Gaza")

I’m just going to say that I am not in-between on this issue, but that should be obvious by now.

xp I know people are all about bearing witness but I find this stuff incredibly upsetting.

I don’t think it was mentioned but Humza Yousuf who is Scotland’s first minister has family trapped in Gaza. I am linking this video as I find this content extremely upsetting.

Bernard's mother and family went out of their way to tell me that they would be praying for my family in Gaza. We hugged, we cried, and we promised to re-dedicate ourselves to peace and to be unequivocal; no innocent man, woman, or child should pay the price of another's actions. https://t.co/Vv1fz9gXqJ

— Humza Yousaf (@HumzaYousaf) October 13, 2023

Also, for context on the Kibbutz Be'eri post and those less familiar with the situation of the past 15-20 years (and again disclaimer I am hardly an expert myself): from Ariel Sharon onward, Israeli policy has been increasingly tilted toward a phony sort of "disengagement." In my mind, it traces back to the building of the West Bank wall although that could be simplistic take. But Netanyahu has turbo-charged this idea, basically that Israel could just kind of ignore the territories (at least other than soldiers stationed in the West Bank) rather than engage in any more ongoing negotiations, that the West Bank could continue to develop economically even without full agency or freedom, and that Gaza would be the kind of counterexample (i.e. life would be worse than in the West Bank) as long as Hamas was there. That terrorism could simply be prevented or minimized through "security," the settlements in the West Bank could continue quietly, and most Israelis would just live their lives and not worry.

Netanyahu is also notoriously corrupt and venal, and he has maintained power through a coalition with right-wing settler and religious parties, giving both more power (which also angers the more secular wings of Israeli politics as Israel gradually takes on additional trappings of theocracy, though it is hardly a full theocracy).

Netanyahu also favors his voters. The kibbutzes near Gaza tend actually to be center-liberal to left. They are not Netanyahu voters. There is a strong sense that Netanyahu "neglected" these areas as the girl expressed in her video, and that is also reflected in the sense that he neglected security near the Gaza border. I genuinely do not know whether Netanyahu "allowed" the attack but I seriously doubt it for reasons I stated in the prior thread. I think this was more hubris and stupidity and myopia.

"I don’t think it was mentioned but Humza Yousuf who is Scotland’s first minister has family trapped in Gaza. I am linking this video as I find this content extremely upsetting."

Mentioned this in the last Israel thread.

You can count on one hand the number of European leaders who have talked about Palestinians as human beings

And they’re all backpedaling now given protests and public pushback.

The President of the University of Pennsylvania has released her 3rd or 4th public statement apologizing for letting a Palestinian writers conference take place last month

The President of the University of Pennsylvania has released her 3rd or 4th public statement apologizing for letting a Palestinian writers conference take place last month

people are so fucking gross

Public statements issued by university presidents are generally tailored to a narrow and specific segment of the public, mainly anyone with influence over university revenues or endowments. They are paid to know how to read that room.

Aimless, we know. No offense.

Well, yeah. When you've got Dick Wolf threatening your donations because you let Palestinians into a building named after him...

a name like Dick Wolf must never be besmirched

Always guarantee the BBC will always be fucked.

The BBC admits that it misled the public about pro-Palestinian demonstrations in the UK. pic.twitter.com/oi4nVf5DN7

— Lowkey (@Lowkey0nline) October 16, 2023

i think about this poem by Palestinian poet Najwan Darwish all the time pic.twitter.com/jv5WOOjobb

— هستی hasti (@youarehasti) October 16, 2023

xp - That retraction was also poorly phrased and could be misleading.

This is @GhassanAbuSitt1, a surgeon who is currently saving the lives of Palestinians in a hospital in Gaza. He's just reported that counter terrorism police have showed up at his house in the UK and harrased his family.pic.twitter.com/GOvl5aQLHG https://t.co/bugmmZPAMM

— Saul Staniforth (@SaulStaniforth) October 16, 2023

That retraction was also poorly phrased and could be misleading.

glad i'm not the only one who thought this

OTM

I know this is old news, but it still blows my mind that the range of Acceptable Opinions on Israel is narrower in the West than it is in Israel.

That Darwish poem is great. Notable that Armenians were just cleansed from Artsakh by Azerbaijan and absolutely no-one in the west cared.

Yup. Armenia could be invaded in the next few weeks btw.

xxp two words: Social Media.

Nuanced discussions are often lacking in the echo chambers of social media and the 24 hour news cycle. The only place where I've seen nuanced discussions about the topic are on platforms that favor more nuanced discussion, such as ILX and (yes, believe it or not) Reddit.

I do wonder if the "outrage economy" of clickbait extremism online and the 24 hours news cycle will finally hit a limit of societal acceptability in western democracies, but I'm not holding my breath, they still make $$$

"We called a pro-palestinian march pro-Hamas. We accept that this was a thing that we said". WTF.

Now here's the weather.

True, I understand in theory how misinformation supposedly works. But I'm finding it extremely challenging to trust some of the news sources being cited and finding myself turning to reddit, and other news sources that I don't normally consult trying to see what areas of dispute exist over even just the factual reporting.

xp

Interestingly enough, a private forum I participate in is completely avoiding talking about this, and honestly it might be for the best.

The ukpolitics sub is overall fanatically pro-occupation and pro-genocide, and they are gradually losing their shit as they observe the public becoming turned off by this stance. Also they are usually witheringly critical of the Tories but have suddenly become staunchly supportive of Sunak and Braverman.

Are you taking about Reddit or something

I have met exactly zero people in between.

To the extent I've talked to people about this, almost everybody I know IRL is "in between" the two positions you describe.

Reddit is a paragon of “nuanced discussion” now. We are truly fucked.

Actually was just thinking about this specific issue in non-Reddit terms which still definitely apply to Reddit. How this conflict is a godsend for the extreme right (and whatever apologists they may have claiming to be “leftist”). Because it so thoroughly divides actual leftists from liberals steeped in realpolitik or whatever they’re on.

a name like Dick Wolf must never be besmirched

There's nothing decent to besmirch. The Law & Order "franchise" is a formulaic, sensationalist pile of shit. All 1,316 episodes of it.

Also pretty depressing how my social media feed was blissfully Ben Shapiro-free until various people decided his thick-headed, one-dimensional take on the Middle East was the voice of reason this past week.

xxp two words: Social Media.

Nuanced discussions are often lacking in the echo chambers of social media and the 24 hour news cycle. The only place where I've seen nuanced discussions about the topic are on platforms that favor more nuanced discussion, such as 4chan and (yes, believe it or not) Stormfront.

We get it. You don't like Reddit.

I don’t like social media illiterates upholding a literal right wing extremist-captured disinformation service as their go-to for balanced discussion.

lol what

Lol hey i wasnt even posting here viborg

Yes, the famously extremist platform, reddit

Extremely milquetoast maybe

If this holds there would be elections in Israel next year?

No Peace Prize for Donnie, that's something at least.

I presume the winner is some ghoulish Western backed stooge who has melt-lib hero status for repeatedly failing to coup Venezuela

LOL Trump you're fine, we like you, but we don't want Tony Blair.

https://news.sky.com/story/hamas-official-thanks-donald-trump-for-peace-deal-but-warns-tony-blair-not-welcome-13448166

The scene in the Knesset with Trump is like watching the inverse of a war crimes tribunal. The leaders and facilitators of the Gaza genocide are congratulating each other and applauding their crimes.

— jeremy scahill (@jeremyscahill) October 13, 2025

There was an Egyptian plan for Gaza that did not include Tony Blair, but alas it did not get Trump and Netanyahu support

Trump talking about Netanyahu asking him for weapons and Trump giving him them to him and bragging about how he gave them to him . Ugh

https://www.tiktok.com/@cnn/video/7560709437334310157

Jared Kushner praising Israel with nonsensical speech

https://www.tiktok.com/@codepinkalert/video/7560407037306260750

While some killings still happening-

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/10/12/palestinian-journalist-saleh-aljafarawi-shot-dead-in-gaza-city-clashes

Palestinian sources said clashes were taking place between Hamas security forces and fighters from the Doghmush clan in Sabra on Sunday, although this has not been confirmed by local authorities.

A senior source in Gaza’s Ministry of Interior told Al Jazeera Arabic that the clashes in Gaza City involved “an armed militia affiliated with the [Israeli] occupation”.

The source said security forces imposed a siege on the militia, adding that “militia members” killed displaced people as they were returning from southern Gaza to Gaza City.

Trump talking about Netanyahu asking him for weapons and Trump giving him them to him and bragging about how he gave them to him . Ugh

https://www.tiktok.com/@cnn/video/7560709437334310157🕸

Can’t understand why he won’t get the Peace Prize

I'm very glad hostages on both sides are freed, and honestly surprised there were that many still alive. I'm not even cautiously optimistic that the future will be ok for Palestinians though.

An Israeli official told Haaretz that Hamas would release the bodies of more hostages on Tuesday night, after the group failed to fulfil its obligation to return all deceased hostages within 72 hours, according to the cease-fire agreement. Israel announced it would close the Rafah border crossing and reduce humanitarian aid in response to Hamas returning only four deceased hostages. Israeli officials said the IDF had not identified any significant efforts by Hamas to locate the remaining bodies. The Hostages and Missing Families Forum wrote to U.S. Special Envoy Steve Witkoff, saying, "What we feared is now happening before our eyes." Gaza's Health Ministry reported that six Palestinians were killed by Israeli fire, with Hamas saying Israel violated the cease-fire. Violent clashes occurred in Gaza City between Hamas members and local militias.

Oh nice, Israel is starving and killing more Palestinian civilians because Hamas hasn't pulled dead bodies out of the rubble quick enough.

During Gaza negotiations, Israel understood it would take time to recover all bodies of deceased captives. A specific mechanism for recovering the bodies was agreed. Now Israel is pretending that didn’t happen so it can violate the deal and cut the agreed aid shipments in half.

— jeremy scahill (@jeremyscahill) October 14, 2025

they bomb the place with more munitions than was used on Germany in ww2 and then expect corpses to be removed in a very fast timely fashion from the crumbling lunar surface that remains of Gaza. Their only mode is bad faith deception/lies, the whole world knows this now - as too late as it is for the hundreds of thousands murdered by them.

A specific mechanism for recovering the bodies was agreed.

Surely this stuff is, you know, written down somewhere?

It doesn't matter, they will violate any "agreement" they come to, partly because they know there will be no consequences, and partly because any agreement brokered will have been made with only the Israeli side's interests taken into consideration.

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/un-human-rights-occupied-palestinian-territory-1001-palestinians-killed-west-bank-7-october-2023-one-five-are-children-enar

The UN Human Rights Office in the Occupied Palestinian Territory is appalled by the killing of 9-year-old Mohammad Bahjat Al-Hallaq who was shot by Israeli security forces (ISF) while playing football in Ar-Rihiya, Hebron, on Thursday, 16 October.

The fatality brings the total number of Palestinian killed by ISF and settlers since 7 October 2023 in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, to 1001. One in five of the victims is a child including 206 boys and 7 girls. The number also includes 20 women and at least 7 persons with disabilities. This does not include Palestinians who died in Israeli detention during the same period.

The figure represents 43 per cent of all Palestinians killed in the occupied West Bank in the past 20 years.

Breaking🚨: The Israeli army committed a horrific massacre in Gaza after an Israeli tank shelled a vehicle carrying a Palestinian family as they were returning to their home in the Al-Zaytoun neighbourhood, killing 11 people, including 7 children, three women, and the father.

— Abubaker Abed (@AbubakerAbedW) October 17, 2025

I've been trying to express this in a way that doesn't sound hopelessly naive, but I've been wondering what we can hope for, push for, in the short term. I've seen plenty on long term solutions, and understand everyone has to keep on pushing for that, but in the meantime what's the first step? Even on the left the answer to that until now was "ceasefire now", but it's clear Israel has no intentions of respecting that.

Would hope that momentum might be high enough that a further massacre like this might be seen as an international incident and prompt a lot more grassroots action at least. It probably would elsewhere. Actually get foreign governments to respond in a more than nominal way. Consciously wake up to the Israeli narrative being a fiction.

If Italian labour has already had the country at a temporary standstill in response to the Sumud flotilla has that card been played ? Is it one that can only been played once? Is there any likelihood of similar action happening elsewhere. Is that going to provide enough leverage for the situation to permanently change. Or is this just going to linger indefinitely?
Hoping that BDS is going to have some effect but until something like that can get through to US and UK govts etc one can only hope.

I see.

JUST IN - Israel says Hamas committed a serious violation of the ceasefire and, in response, the IDF is currently conducting strikes in Gaza.

— Disclose.tv (@disclosetv) October 19, 2025

I'm not sure there is an answer to Daniel's question. Israel is a fascist country where the governing consensus is that genocide should continue or, at least, they should be maintaining and amplifying an apartheid regime while killing, starving, and imprisoning as many Palestinians as they can. I'm not sure there are any tenable short-term goals for non-local activists to strive for in this context.

Just had a friend of mine who was in the Sumud Flotilla speaking at a rally. She said that the ports of Israel are still full of foreign trading vessels, maybe container vessels.
So would be good if that could be heavily reduced. If anybody could leverage widespread boycott it would be great.
I did hear about unions in various places trying to prompt goods for Israel not being handled through departure ports. Or at least armaments so far.
If that could be brought to a halt there might be some hope. But Zionists proliferate

Can only hope people continue to wake up to the Israeli narrative being a fiction. Did seem to be happening more and more

Murdered this week.

We have same upsetting news. Our wonderful vet Mu’ath Abj Rakba tried to go back to his house in Jabalia on Friday and nobody has heard from him since. We are in touch with his wife and parents and siblings. His brother tried to go there, but unfortunately everybody who reaches pic.twitter.com/OGojETpoJF

— Sulala Animal Rescue (@SulalaSociety) October 12, 2025

Update on Israel's forever war on Lebanon: https://apnews.com/article/lebanon-israel-gaza-ceasefire-new-normal-hezbollah-190eb8c2ec2d9fedc94c3fadfc1f41e2

Israel ordered the deportation of 32 foreign activists on Wednesday for their support to olive-harvesting Palestinians against settler violence in the occupied West Bank.

A statement by Interior Minister Yariv Levin and National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir said the… pic.twitter.com/ovpnDpHGpy

— Middle East Monitor (@MiddleEastMnt) October 22, 2025

Israel kicks out permanently supporters of West Bank olive farmers who have been getting attacked by settlers

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20251022-israel-deports-32-foreign-activists-for-supporting-palestinian-farmers-against-settler-violence-in-west-bank/

they’re building a reservation/concentration camps for Palestinians and a walled off colony on the rest of it to steal real estate. That’s the plan and we gotta be clear about it https://t.co/1AAYAmXBbC

— Ali A Olomi (@aaolomi) October 24, 2025

Watch this. This is what anti-Palestinian racism looks like. pic.twitter.com/Tr6e3nByft

— Linda Mamoun (@mamoun_linda) October 26, 2025

Israel doing air strikes on Gaza City...purportedly because of something that happened in Rafah

yeah, the historic ceasefire is already history

that's what they meant by historic... it will only ever exist in the past

that’s “historical” (pushes glasses up nose)

BREAKING: Netanyahu's corruption hearing truncated today due to 'security developments': Report

🔴 LIVE updates: https://t.co/QbR0b44VuW pic.twitter.com/HtHn84rPwY

— Al Jazeera Breaking News (@AJENews) October 28, 2025

You know, it's very weird and sickening to live through a mass gaslighting like this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/oct/29/israeli-strikes-in-gaza-overnight-as-ceasefire-looks-increasingly-fragile

Israeli airstrikes on Gaza overnight killed at least 104 Palestinians, including children, in what appeared to be the gravest challenge yet to the increasingly fragile US-brokered ceasefire and the deadliest day since the truce began.

The strikes, one of the bloodiest attacks in the two-year war, killed at least 35 children and injured 200 people, according to Gaza’s civil defence agency. They took place hours after Donald Trump said nothing would jeopardise the ceasefire agreement he had helped broker.

Dr Mohammed al-Mughir, the director of humanitarian support and international cooperation at the civil defence in Gaza, told the Guardian: “Among these attacks was the targeting of a cancer patient camp, the Insan camp.”

The toll was confirmed by an Agence France-Presse (AFP) tally of reports from medical officials at five Gaza hospitals that received the dead and wounded.

So it's a ceasefire when Israel says it is, and it's a war when this regime of frothing at the mouth racist child and cancer patient murdering zealot genocidaires says it is. I see.

Also, it is maddening that no one (in leadership, in the media) makes the point that there seems to be some kind of silent consensus that the remains of a small number of dead hostages are more valuable than all living Palestinians. Nothing really shocks me about this conflict anymore, but this comes close.

it is disgusting and indefensible

you need a hierarchical view of human value based on ethnicity or religion, with your enemy so far down that they’re off the scale and yeah i think the IDF and Netanyahu have been there for a long time

hard agree on the hallucinatory quality of seeing more israeli bombs and more killings of palestinians and this being characterised as “ceasefire increasingly fragile”

It would almost be laughable if it wasn't so abhorrent: "one of the bloodiest attacks in the two-year war" cannot by definition occur during a truce or ceasefire.

I'm grimly grateful to have already read Rashid Khalidi's The Hundred Years' on War on Palestine before this month. I'd recommend it if you haven't read it already and want to situate what's happening now into the longer historical context.

> a small number of dead hostages are more valuable than all living Palestinians

I couldn't believe what I was hearing. "It looks like they dug up the incorrect set of moldering bones, and that leaves us with no choice but to kill another hundred-plus civilians."

What more to a expect of a country of psychotic racist liars

United Nations: 87% of Gaza’s agricultural land has been destroyed during the war, and the FAO warns of the collapse of the food system. pic.twitter.com/PF0I8g8Frk

— Sameh Ahmed 𓂆 🇵🇸 (@PalPress24) November 1, 2025

this story about the military prosecutor who resigned after leaking video footage of a Palestinian prisoner at SDE being sexually assaulted is really messed up: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyk1dk7d9do

and: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/ex-israeli-military-top-lawyer-missing-after-admitting-leaking-soldiers-rape-video

just came here to post that. insane story, but most telling is this quote from Netanyahu:

The scandal has received widespread coverage in Israel, with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday calling for an independent investigation into the leak, which he says caused "enormous damage to Israel's public image".

"This is perhaps the most severe propaganda attack that the state of Israel has experienced since its establishment," Netanyahu said.

And then there’s also this:
At least nine Israeli soldiers were questioned over the assault in late July 2024, sparking widespread anger across Israel, with polls showing that a majority believe the accused officers should not face criminal charges.

yeah that Netanyahu line is telling, as is Ben-Gvir saying "Anyone who spreads blood libels against IDF troops is unfit to wear the army's uniform."

"Anyone who spreads blood libels against IDF troops is unfit to wear the army's uniform," he said.

“Blood libel”= actual evidence of torture.
Fucking revolting.

Not even a token statement that rape and torture is bad

Simply noticing when IDF soldiers rape someone is now antisemitic, good to know

I thought libel was supposed to be a claim that was false. oh well.

I simply can’t understand how ingrained it seems to be in this discourse that “lying is an acceptable way to form an argument”; from the moment I heard/read the phrase “the most moral military in the world” it was definitely evident that the opposite was true (even just by dint of the fact that such an assertion needed to be made).

But as I’ve said before, the realization that to this population that there is no difference between a Palestinian life and a rodent infestation has seriously reduced any expectation of reasonable behaviour— we see murders where they see crop dusting

which he says caused "enormous damage to Israel's public image"

uhhh... I think the IDF has already done plenty to sully said public image. This woman should get a medal for the leak

This is what's actually happening to her:

An Israeli court on Monday extended the detention by three days of former Military Advocate General Yifat Tomer-Yerushalmi, who was arrested on Sunday night as part of the investigation into the leak of a video showing the abuse of a Palestinian detainee by Israeli guards.

...

National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir announced that Prison Service Commissioner Kobi Yaakobi had ordered that she be held in solitary confinement under heightened supervision, monitored by guards and cameras.

https://archive.ph/W1luL (Haaretz)