Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

As requested. WmC do you want to close the other thread?

Yair Wallach, who is an Israeli academic at SOAS very much not sympathetic to Likud/Bibi, is a good source on twitter atm, but like all the content out there atm, proceed at your own risk.

He retweeted this video of a young woman from one of the kibbutzes (kibbutzim?) that was attacked earlier:

By far the most powerful Israeli response I have seen.

This 19 year old girl survived the horrific massacre in Kibbutz Be’eri.

This is her message to her fellow Israelis and to the world.

Watch the whole thing.pic.twitter.com/qSPKZX4pzg

— Benzi Sanders (@BenzionSanders) October 14, 2023

Thanks, gyac.

Chotiner and Sari Bashi, the program director at Human Rights Watch:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-humanitarian-catastrophe-in-gaza

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W43C8xhh5E

Sam & Emma interviewing Omar Shakir, Israel & Palestine Director at HRW this morning

looks like David Dayen in there too

Yes, but trying to ask a question of the guest when Sam is in interview mode is a tall order

Why is our political class so invested in suppressing criticism of the apartheid regime? The answer is obvious. Western states support Israel in order to maintain their power at a crucial crossroads of world trade. Challenging that power is impermissible, because any attempt to hold Israel accountable for its crimes is – by definition – an attempt to hold our own states accountable for their involvement in them. Not only are our rulers prepared to let Israel level Gaza; they will even provide it with diplomatic cover and military supplies.

https://newleftreview.org/sidecar/posts/impending-genocide

As noted, I know numerous IRL people with Israeli flag avatars saying that they stand with Israel no matter what.

Plus I know IlXorz and others who almost uniformly condemn Israel as a brutal apartheid state that continues to use "but the Holocaust" as a laminated carte blanche for every atrocity the IDF wishes to commit. (There is a bit of a strawman in there but that's another topic for another time.)

I have met exactly zero people in between. I know it is not about me and/or my feelz. And I don't love "both sides"ing US politics either. The discourse is polarized and will remain so.

Absolutely no-one has talked about this situation at work, there's been no conversation about it at all, maybe people don't talk about it at work in the US either I don't know.

No offence Tom but that was a post I was hoping could be left behind in the old thread

xp, thank you for that gyac, incredibly moving. I also recommend the NYTimes Daily from today on the situation on the ground in gaza from the perspective of people caught in it, difficult listening:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/16/podcasts/the-daily/gaza-israel.html

(the ep labeled "Voices from Gaza")

I’m just going to say that I am not in-between on this issue, but that should be obvious by now.

xp I know people are all about bearing witness but I find this stuff incredibly upsetting.

I don’t think it was mentioned but Humza Yousuf who is Scotland’s first minister has family trapped in Gaza. I am linking this video as I find this content extremely upsetting.

Bernard's mother and family went out of their way to tell me that they would be praying for my family in Gaza. We hugged, we cried, and we promised to re-dedicate ourselves to peace and to be unequivocal; no innocent man, woman, or child should pay the price of another's actions. https://t.co/Vv1fz9gXqJ

— Humza Yousaf (@HumzaYousaf) October 13, 2023

Also, for context on the Kibbutz Be'eri post and those less familiar with the situation of the past 15-20 years (and again disclaimer I am hardly an expert myself): from Ariel Sharon onward, Israeli policy has been increasingly tilted toward a phony sort of "disengagement." In my mind, it traces back to the building of the West Bank wall although that could be simplistic take. But Netanyahu has turbo-charged this idea, basically that Israel could just kind of ignore the territories (at least other than soldiers stationed in the West Bank) rather than engage in any more ongoing negotiations, that the West Bank could continue to develop economically even without full agency or freedom, and that Gaza would be the kind of counterexample (i.e. life would be worse than in the West Bank) as long as Hamas was there. That terrorism could simply be prevented or minimized through "security," the settlements in the West Bank could continue quietly, and most Israelis would just live their lives and not worry.

Netanyahu is also notoriously corrupt and venal, and he has maintained power through a coalition with right-wing settler and religious parties, giving both more power (which also angers the more secular wings of Israeli politics as Israel gradually takes on additional trappings of theocracy, though it is hardly a full theocracy).

Netanyahu also favors his voters. The kibbutzes near Gaza tend actually to be center-liberal to left. They are not Netanyahu voters. There is a strong sense that Netanyahu "neglected" these areas as the girl expressed in her video, and that is also reflected in the sense that he neglected security near the Gaza border. I genuinely do not know whether Netanyahu "allowed" the attack but I seriously doubt it for reasons I stated in the prior thread. I think this was more hubris and stupidity and myopia.

"I don’t think it was mentioned but Humza Yousuf who is Scotland’s first minister has family trapped in Gaza. I am linking this video as I find this content extremely upsetting."

Mentioned this in the last Israel thread.

You can count on one hand the number of European leaders who have talked about Palestinians as human beings

And they’re all backpedaling now given protests and public pushback.

The President of the University of Pennsylvania has released her 3rd or 4th public statement apologizing for letting a Palestinian writers conference take place last month

The President of the University of Pennsylvania has released her 3rd or 4th public statement apologizing for letting a Palestinian writers conference take place last month

people are so fucking gross

Public statements issued by university presidents are generally tailored to a narrow and specific segment of the public, mainly anyone with influence over university revenues or endowments. They are paid to know how to read that room.

Aimless, we know. No offense.

Well, yeah. When you've got Dick Wolf threatening your donations because you let Palestinians into a building named after him...

a name like Dick Wolf must never be besmirched

Always guarantee the BBC will always be fucked.

The BBC admits that it misled the public about pro-Palestinian demonstrations in the UK. pic.twitter.com/oi4nVf5DN7

— Lowkey (@Lowkey0nline) October 16, 2023

i think about this poem by Palestinian poet Najwan Darwish all the time pic.twitter.com/jv5WOOjobb

— هستی hasti (@youarehasti) October 16, 2023

xp - That retraction was also poorly phrased and could be misleading.

This is @GhassanAbuSitt1, a surgeon who is currently saving the lives of Palestinians in a hospital in Gaza. He's just reported that counter terrorism police have showed up at his house in the UK and harrased his family.pic.twitter.com/GOvl5aQLHG https://t.co/bugmmZPAMM

— Saul Staniforth (@SaulStaniforth) October 16, 2023

That retraction was also poorly phrased and could be misleading.

glad i'm not the only one who thought this

OTM

I know this is old news, but it still blows my mind that the range of Acceptable Opinions on Israel is narrower in the West than it is in Israel.

That Darwish poem is great. Notable that Armenians were just cleansed from Artsakh by Azerbaijan and absolutely no-one in the west cared.

Yup. Armenia could be invaded in the next few weeks btw.

xxp two words: Social Media.

Nuanced discussions are often lacking in the echo chambers of social media and the 24 hour news cycle. The only place where I've seen nuanced discussions about the topic are on platforms that favor more nuanced discussion, such as ILX and (yes, believe it or not) Reddit.

I do wonder if the "outrage economy" of clickbait extremism online and the 24 hours news cycle will finally hit a limit of societal acceptability in western democracies, but I'm not holding my breath, they still make $$$

"We called a pro-palestinian march pro-Hamas. We accept that this was a thing that we said". WTF.

Now here's the weather.

True, I understand in theory how misinformation supposedly works. But I'm finding it extremely challenging to trust some of the news sources being cited and finding myself turning to reddit, and other news sources that I don't normally consult trying to see what areas of dispute exist over even just the factual reporting.

xp

Interestingly enough, a private forum I participate in is completely avoiding talking about this, and honestly it might be for the best.

The ukpolitics sub is overall fanatically pro-occupation and pro-genocide, and they are gradually losing their shit as they observe the public becoming turned off by this stance. Also they are usually witheringly critical of the Tories but have suddenly become staunchly supportive of Sunak and Braverman.

Are you taking about Reddit or something

I have met exactly zero people in between.

To the extent I've talked to people about this, almost everybody I know IRL is "in between" the two positions you describe.

Reddit is a paragon of “nuanced discussion” now. We are truly fucked.

Actually was just thinking about this specific issue in non-Reddit terms which still definitely apply to Reddit. How this conflict is a godsend for the extreme right (and whatever apologists they may have claiming to be “leftist”). Because it so thoroughly divides actual leftists from liberals steeped in realpolitik or whatever they’re on.

a name like Dick Wolf must never be besmirched

There's nothing decent to besmirch. The Law & Order "franchise" is a formulaic, sensationalist pile of shit. All 1,316 episodes of it.

Also pretty depressing how my social media feed was blissfully Ben Shapiro-free until various people decided his thick-headed, one-dimensional take on the Middle East was the voice of reason this past week.

xxp two words: Social Media.

Nuanced discussions are often lacking in the echo chambers of social media and the 24 hour news cycle. The only place where I've seen nuanced discussions about the topic are on platforms that favor more nuanced discussion, such as 4chan and (yes, believe it or not) Stormfront.

We get it. You don't like Reddit.

I don’t like social media illiterates upholding a literal right wing extremist-captured disinformation service as their go-to for balanced discussion.

lol what

Lol hey i wasnt even posting here viborg

Yes, the famously extremist platform, reddit

Extremely milquetoast maybe

also sounds like she was backing the Gaza plan in same interview!

I'll have to take your word for it. her voice makes me want to die lol

meanwhile here's what Israel is up to today in Lebanon (12 airstrikes in 45 mins):
https://bsky.app/profile/ayoub.bsky.social/post/3monkmb76y22v

Very sad to learn that Mona Khalil died after weeks in the ICU following an Israeli strike that levelled her home in Mansouri. She was a very well-known environmental activist and dedicated her life to saving endangered turtles. She stayed in the south despite Israeli strikes… pic.twitter.com/fb7R8rQEHY

— Nada Maucourant Atallah (@MaucourantNada) June 19, 2026

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2ZY8nlbNWI

Hezbollah took out an Israeli Heron surveillance drone at 23000 ft this week, very high value catch and it damages Israel's ability to sell this drone to other rogue states. Jon Elmer of Electric Intifada does some excellent weekly reportage/analysis of what is happening on the ground in Lebanon from a resistance viewpoint. And also it usually features lots of boring technical stuff that I find interesting.

no shock to anyone paying attention, but it's good to see the UN put it in writing

The ​UN commission said in its report, released on Tuesday, that Palestinian children were deliberately targeted and killed during the ‌war, including after a ceasefire came into effect ‌in October 2025.

It said this was a key element in establishing genocidal intent by Israeli authorities and security forces to destroy the Palestinian group, in whole or in part, ‌in Gaza.

“The evidence shows that Palestinian children have been deliberately targeted and killed by the Israeli security forces,” said Srinivasan Muralidhar, the commission’s chair, in a statement accompanying the report.

No shock to anyone but this racist hateful member of Netanyahu’s government has evil plans for Gaza ( this from Haaretz email)

During a visit to the southern Israeli city of Sderot on Monday, Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich said Israel is ready to begin building three Jewish settlements in the northern part of the Strip once "we receive the green light from the prime minister," arguing that "there's no security where there are no settlements."

The far-right minister, whose Religious Zionism party is struggling in election polls, added that "the IDF currently holds nearly 70 percent of the Gaza Strip. We must complete the conquest of the remaining territory, defeat Hamas and establish a belt of Jewish settlements that will serve as a security buffer" for Israeli communities that border Gaza.

it's astonishing (well, maybe not really lol) how ppl like mamdani (or brad lander!) have every utterance they make dissected for hints of antisemitism while actual israeli government officials are saying the most bloodthirsty genocidal shit conceivable

that is made possible by the fact that the average US voter has no idea what any israeli government officials are saying about anything.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2026/7/17/israeli-attacks-on-gaza-kill-14-including-mourners-attending-funeral

Witnesses said the drone targeted Palestinian mourners gathered outside the Ahmad Yassin Mosque as they waited to begin a funeral procession for a Palestinian killed in a separate attack earlier in the day in the same area...

The Israeli military confirmed carrying out the strike, the AFP news agency reported.

The army claimed to have struck a “terrorist” cell in central Gaza, but added that it was “aware of the claims that several uninvolved individuals were harmed as a result of the strike. The results of the strike are under review.”

IDF just never stops their war crime violence

https://www.reuters.com/3fec1b0a85a0/world/middle-east/israels-yellow-line-shifting-edge-war-pushing-gazans-home-2026-07-28/

the Nakba continues

Over the past two days, civil defense crews recovered the remains of 112 members of the Abu Sharia family, who will be buried tomorrow, in what is expected to be the largest funeral since the beginning of the genocide.

Nearly 200 of their relatives are still believed to lie… pic.twitter.com/obfgGZcswF

— Quds News Network (@QudsNen) August 3, 2026

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/aug/04/jordan-convenes-emergency-meeting-israel-religious-conflict-jerusalem

Jordan is convening an emergency meeting of foreign ministers from the Arab and Islamic world over what it says is an “imminent” threat of an Israeli takeover of the most important Muslim site in Jerusalem, with the potential to “trigger a religious conflict”.

The meeting on Wednesday – and the Jordanian warning – follow an escalating pattern of government-backed incursions by Jewish religious extremists on the compound around al-Aqsa mosque and Dome of the Rock, in violation of a status quo treaty overseen by Jordan’s Hashemite monarchy, by which only Muslims can pray at the site.

On 23 July, more than 2,000 Israelis from the religious right – mostly settlers led by the national security minister, Itamar Ben Gvir – stormed the area, known to Jews as the Temple Mount. They prayed and performed rituals all around the compound in what Jordanian officials said was the worst violation in modern history.

i was surprised to see a mainstream news outlet use a phrase that comes close to the truth:

Jordan is uniquely vulnerable to the impact of Israel’s broader ethnic cleansing campaign in the West Bank, which Amman fears may also escalate dramatically as the October elections loom. There is anxiety over what the Israeli government might do in the three months before the vote, as radical elements seek to change the geography of the region in ways which could be difficult to reverse.

The Guardian doing a better job than other mainstream sites

As bad as the NY Times can be, it does have some reporting covering information I am not seeing elsewhere. Like this article on how Israel is trying to cut off finances for Hezbollah in Lebanon by bombing banks and other means

As large money service businesses came under greater scrutiny, Hezbollah continued to rely heavily on a less regulated network of exchange houses, which has rapidly become the primary channel through which Iran finances the group, according to a senior Israeli defense official and another person familiar with Hezbollah’s finances.

In February, weeks before the latest Israel-Hezbollah war began, the Treasury Department said that senior officials from Al-Qard al-Hassan, Hezbollah’s de facto bank, had established a chain of gold-trading companies to raise cash. Ledgers reviewed by The Times and assessments by analysts who track Hezbollah’s cash economy indicated that gold sales have climbed over the past year.

One reason Hezbollah wanted to turn gold into cash was that Israeli airstrikes had destroyed much of Hezbollah’s foreign currency and gold reserves, according to Israeli and U.S. officials….

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/08/09/world/europe/lebanon-hezbollah-iran-us-finances.html?unlocked_article_code=1.4VA.RsOh.zRYbwYMAm8-j&smid=nytcore-ios-share

As bad as the NY Times can be, it does have some reporting covering information I am not seeing elsewhere. Like this article on how Israel is trying to cut off finances for Hezbollah in Lebanon by bombing banks and other means

As large money service businesses came under greater scrutiny, Hezbollah continued to rely heavily on a less regulated network of exchange houses, which has rapidly become the primary channel through which Iran finances the group, according to a senior Israeli defense official and another person familiar with Hezbollah’s finances.

In February, weeks before the latest Israel-Hezbollah war began, the Treasury Department said that senior officials from Al-Qard al-Hassan, Hezbollah’s de facto bank, had established a chain of gold-trading companies to raise cash. Ledgers reviewed by The Times and assessments by analysts who track Hezbollah’s cash economy indicated that gold sales have climbed over the past year.

One reason Hezbollah wanted to turn gold into cash was that Israeli airstrikes had destroyed much of Hezbollah’s foreign currency and gold reserves, according to Israeli and U.S. officials….

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/08/09/world/europe/lebanon-hezbollah-iran-us-finances.html?unlocked_article_code=1.4VA.RsOh.zRYbwYMAm8-j&smid=nytcore-ios-share

https://archive.is/nQ20m (Financial Times)
Israel’s campaign to make southern Lebanon ‘unliveable’

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/aug/12/israel-deliberately-starting-wildfires-in-southern-lebanon-firefighters-say
Israel deliberately starting wildfires in southern Lebanon, firefighters say

Pushing back against reports that the U.S. is sending more than $206 million for a proposed Gaza peacekeeping force, Netanyahu's office said Israel's political leadership has not approved the entry of the International Stabilization Force into the Strip, stressing that "Israel has made clear that there will be no reconstruction whatsoever" before Hamas is fully disarmed.
meanwhile, Australia summoned Israel's ambassador over the IDF's decision not to open a criminal investigation into a 2024 strike in Deir al-Balah that killed seven aid workers, including Australian national Zomi Frankcom.

From Haaretz

american methodist clergy harrassed at the border

https://www.umnews.org/en/news/united-methodists-denied-entry-to-israel

Gadi Eisenkot, the former Israeli military chief of staff now leading in polls to unseat Benjamin Netanyahu in the October 27 election, declared on Saturday there will be no Palestinian state under a government he forms. “There is no Palestinian state, and in the government we will form, no Palestinian state will arise,” he wrote on X.

A recent New Yorker profile by editor David Remnick cast him as the “anti-Bibi” in “manner and character,” a humble soldier fighting for a “Jewish, democratic, progressive, and liberal state.”

So, a fascist

Yeah, but he makes the planes bombs on time.

this was likely the plan all along

Israel’s defence minister has said his country is seeking Donald Trump’s support to approve plans to expel Palestinians from the Gaza Strip in what has widely been condemned as a potential war crime.

Israel Katz said there was “no real solution for Gaza in the end without this migration” during a conference hosted by the Israeli news site Ynet and the newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth. He said the Israeli government was “organised and prepared to get them out by sea, by air, by every way possible”.

Trump discussed a US takeover of the Gaza Strip in early 2025 that would have involved removing Palestinians from the territory, but has since pulled back from the idea. A 20-point peace plan the White House drew up last year did not call for Palestinians’ deportation, an act that would be widely seen as ethnic cleansing.

would widely be seen as

"migration", that's one way to put it huh

as is "no real solution in the end"

one always looks for solutions that aren't temporary, or to put it another way, final solutions

I read this article a few days ago:

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/08/31/world/middleeast/west-bank-israel.html

Israeli retired generals going on west bank tours and being shocked by settler violence.

Some of the retired officials contend that the campaign against Palestinians in the West Bank is reminiscent of Nazism — an extraordinarily contentious assertion, especially in Israel, where many Jews found sanctuary after their families were eradicated in Europe.

Moshe Ya’alon, the former army chief of staff who served as defense minister under Mr. Netanyahu until 2016, recently likened the ideology of extremist Israeli settlers in the West Bank to that of World War II Germany.

“What is Jewish supremacy?” Mr. Ya’alon, long considered a security hawk, recently said on Ynet, an Israeli news site. “Eighty years after the Holocaust, ‘Mein Kampf’ in reverse. The master race is us.”

Ya'alon's own record is full of genocidal and dehumanizing language about Palestinians. I wonder if people like this are capable of seeing their own role in creating today's Israel.

it’s cool though that here we have the freedom to enthusiastically support it, or mournfully support it

fucking monsters

Far-right Israeli minister outlines plan for removal of all Palestinians from Gaza
Itamar Ben-Gvir claims proposal for illegal forced displacement of 2 million people is ‘realistic’ and ‘concrete’

interesting that this is coming out now

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was directly warned by the president of the United Arab Emirates that Hamas was planning a major offensive just days before the militant group led an attack on Oct. 7, 2023 , according to an Israeli newspaper.

U.A.E. President Mohammed bin Zayed spoke with Netanyahu 10 days before the attack and said Yahya Sinwar, the leader of Hamas in Gaza at the time, was planning an operation, the Haaretz daily said.

Bin Zayed said it would lead to bloodshed and could destabilize the region and undermine the Abraham Accords, the normalization agreements between Israel and several Arab and Muslim-majority nations, the newspaper reported.

But Netanyahu "reacted with relative calm," according to Haaretz, which said he assured bin Zayed that Israel was prepared for any scenario and a possible attack was more likely to come from the occupied West Bank.

Netanyahu still trying to deny this and even threatening a defamation action against Haaretz

I have to think Haaretz would have their story nailed down solid before they printed that. Netanyahu's defamation threat is purely for show, a futile sandbag thrown into the breach.

From a Haaretz editorial about the film Naza today.

https://i.ibb.co/tp2XcdFS/HSLV-Lxa8-AArtvj.jpg

Is the editorial about the threat to strip the filmmakers of citizenship?

this is grim:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2026/9/14/animated-map-shows-spread-of-illegal-israeli-settlements-across-palestine

Looks like a pox.

It isn't about the citizenship threat, no.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2026-09-14/ty-article-opinion/.premium/watching-naza-shocked-me-so-did-what-its-creators-left-out/000001a0-9eac-df9d-a9aa-beecf9960000?taid=6aa7b4266a20e500010346a4

yikes

but he's right really, if I'm not reminded of Hamas's role in these events on a daily basis I forget it instantly and suddenly the mass slaughter of children starts to trouble me

It's kind of a joy-kill.

both sides now

On Tuesday, Sheeran responded with a lengthy Instagram post captioned: “It’s important that I set out some facts.”

“I am appalled by the conflict between Israel and Palestine,” he wrote in the first of several bullet-point statements. “The suffering and pain caused on both sides is a human tragedy. There are too many wars across the world causing immeasurable pain, none of which should be tolerated.”

on one hand there's an ongoing genocide - on the other hand there's the financial wellbeing of ed sheeran and his financers

that fact that he characterizes it as an ongoing 'conflict'.. is Hamas even fighting anymore? Hezbollah still flinging rockets but that's not Palestine

hardly the point, the point is to always say “it’s complicated” and then throw pocket sand in your interlocutor’s eyes like Dale Gribble

Well his band and all of the openers for his tour have quit, so kind of hard to tell whether he has a tour or not anymore. Maybe he should have tried having a fucking backbone instead of being a spineless genocide apologist

It's a lot to ask a non-sentient muppet like Ed Sheeran to have ethics/morals.

Guys there are too many wars. We're not sure what the optimal number is, but this is definitely too many.

Sheeran has expressed support for Ukraine, so the whole "I don't pick sides, war is bad period" stance is bullshit anyway. He just doesn't pick sides when it could affect his finances.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/sep/16/building-gaza-city-damaged-israeli-strikes-collapses-killed

It's gotten a lot harder to get a sense of life on the ground in Gaza from afar

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/sep/16/threats-against-israeli-directors-gaza-documentary-naza?fbclid=IwZnRzaAUYSS1wZG9mBWZkaWQWUOnh4VDUgW9Zw6FVzo7g9VV7xVvN4WV4dG4DYWVtAjExAHNydGMGYXBwX2lkCjY2Mjg1NjgzNzkAAR4KWMNoUC0FY0LPxwBpCVk1P8hFkdHFgRGnnyk5MzLtytDB4uLW3sllb2F2rA_aem_-5DktoU2NM7uEsOEbLVDfA

Threats against directors of Naza documentary

Threats are coming from Israeli citizens and Netanyahu and other Israeli government officials

Benjamin Netanyahu said on Wednesday that he would seek new laws allowing Israel to strip citizenship from people who “smear” Israeli soldiers, escalating the campaign against the Oscar-winning film-makers behind the Gaza documentary NAZA, who have faced threats from senior government and military officials and groups of far-right Israelis gathering outside their families’ homes.

those people are going to be killed before too long and then blamed for their own deaths

much like everything else israel does