Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

Yeah great post Lily.

But I would like to be able to have conversations on the left about what to do about this that don't start from the implicit premise that Jews should just clear out, as if Jewish settlement is somehow different and more reversible than the Christian settlement our entire country is built on.

the serious position i encounter most commonly on the left (and support myself) is for a one-state solution - a single, secular democratic state, with civil rights for all, right of return for palestinian refugees and some form of reparations. a two-state solution may be nice in theory but most on the left would tend to agree it's a dead prospect these days - israel has done everything it can with the settlements to make it logistically impossible, and the prospect of a lasting peace from it seems like it would be even less likely. "jews should just clear out" is just more ethnic cleansing, it is not a serious or just position.

That’s an amazing post Lily, thank you for posting.

xxp two words: Social Media.

Nuanced discussions are often lacking in the echo chambers of social media and the 24 hour news cycle. The only place where I've seen nuanced discussions about the topic are on platforms that favor more nuanced discussion, such as 4chan and (yes, believe it or not) Stormfront.

i think viborg was just calling reddit a nazi site in a particularly oblique way there but i wouldn't blame anyone for taking it at face value

Oh wait, it was a parody. Ignore that. Sorry viborg.

Lily Dale, I understand your point of view and you don’t have to apologise for it, or for having complicated feelings, or anything. I don’t think anyone should be asking anything of their Jewish friends about Israel anyway, like you have to prove your views are the right ones. I would very much like to hope that this is widely understood but I know that it isn’t.

In any case, the situation you describe where people may have family over there is complicated and people are being really short sighted and tbh dismissive when saying it’s happening “over there”. The relationship with the diaspora is pretty unique in many ways, which you’ve mentioned. I don’t have to think that anything Bibi’s government does or did is justified or right to feel sorrow for the hostages or the victims of the massacres, some of whom were literal Holocaust survivors.

xp yeah that’s my fault I’m not very awake

Lily, that was an amazing post. It resonates with me because (in the words of a progressive friend with hawkish family members) ‘your Jewish friends are not OK right now’ and I’m trying to make sure I say that I love them and acknowledge their feelings, whatever I may think about the actions of our/their elected officials, lobby groups and militaries. Same goes for friends who have connections to Palestinians (and those who advocate for them).

I’m really valuing ILX right now as a place where we can discuss the current situation with the candour, respect and seriousness it requires.

xp i didn't even notice it was a parody actually lol

good posts Lily, gyac and suzy

xp it's not very good parody, that's why

Wow, Reddit is not a nazi site, and comparing it to a few is abhorrently combative and reductive. Reddit, like fewer and fewer places online, has a variety of views and communities, but honestly even reading some of the threads posted in subs as large as /r/worldnews have been enlightening, empathetic, and nuanced in ways I haven't seen in places like Instagram and especially X, the latter being much closer to an actual nazi site these days.

I'm also Jewish, and battling complicated feelings about this as well (excellent post, Lily! Thank you for sharing), though fortunately I don't have family in Israel. I've already come out and shared this background in the Noname thread when I was confronted with the reality that one of my favorite rappers allowed some blatantly antisemitic raps on her new record. I also support a secular, one state solution as ufo describes above. I am really not looking forward to the heightened Islamophobia and antisemitism that will inevitably surge from all of this. The general upward trend of hate coupled with these events of the last two weeks have me feeling very concerned for a lot of people, both near and far.

xp ok I was wrong, we didn't get it.

Good post octobeard.

Yes I found that too re: reddit. There are people posting from Gaza and Israel in the r/worldnews daily megathreads.

Drawing comparisons between things that are not Nazis and actual Nazis violates the rules of several subreddits, including, I believe, the one devoted to discussing the Israel-Palestine situation.

One could say such comparisons demonstrates a refusal to engage in the actual conversation being had while also stoking the anger, prejudice, hatred, and vengeful thinking, behind the actions causing the cycle of violence and retribution in the first place. If people doing this are also willing to engage in the actual conversations being had, then it shouldn't matter, but sadly I find this is often not the case.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/17/spain-rejects-israeli-claims-of-its-officials-aligning-with-hamas

Just wanting to point out that Palestinians and others who have been subject to unjust and international war on their homelands are also feeling pretty traumatized at the moment.

What Lily Dale’s post speaks to is what a Jewish friend wrote a few days ago about what’s going on, and that is that despite the mentions of the Shoah, the overwhelming majority of Israeli and mainstream Jewish reaction to these events speaks to a complete and utter lack of connection with Jewish ancestors, who were a diasporic, hated, and perpetually exiled people. This is the pain and history that comes before the Shoah, and which the Israeli state is now enforcing on another group of people. To what end?

Thanks Lily. I've shared your post with my wife whose views and conflicts sound very similar to yours. She's Jewish and trying to navigate being pushed and pulled by people around her, talking with our kids about it who are getting views pushed on them by our temple, and her best friend who is coming down more pro-Israel than her.

Just wanting to point out that Palestinians and others who have been subject to unjust and international war on their homelands are also feeling pretty traumatized at the moment.

xposts

Yes, Lily, many thanks for that terrific post, I'm Jewish and it really helped me clarify my thoughts (it didn't go "all over the place" at all!). Literally everything you said resonates with me.

Not everyone seems to understand, which is why I posted it.

If you mean specific people itt, then by all means quote them. Otherwise it comes across like you’re taking issue with Lily’s post and replies to it.

I’d also point out that discussion not taking place on this thread doesn’t mean they’re not happening.

Thanks for your post, Lily.

I think my post was pretty clear, and wasn’t meant to denigrate Lily’s post. Not sure why I need to clarify for your sake only, since it seems what you’re looking for is a fight.

FWIW (and with respect!) I don't like that "mainstream Jewish reaction", feels reductive to me, a mainstream Jew who doesn't think that way

Got it— I could have been more specific, in that what I meant was “the reaction of Jewish people as portrayed in the mainstream press.” Apologies for that.

That this reductive portrayal in the mainstream media speaks to what Lily and others have been saying— that these narratives are harmful and
antisemitic— is pretty clear! Obviously, I’m not trying to parrot them, as both irl and on here, I have many many Jewish friends who are against the occupation and ongoing state violence.

Right now, in Gaza, the situation is horrific and catastrophic.
Those hospitals and clinics that have not been evacuated are overwhelmed and are barely functioning. No electricity, no medical supplies. Surgeons in Al-Shifa hospital are now operating without painkillers.

— Christos Christou (@DrChristou) October 16, 2023

the serious position i encounter most commonly on the left (and support myself) is for a one-state solution - a single, secular democratic state, with civil rights for all, right of return for palestinian refugees and some form of reparations. a two-state solution may be nice in theory but most on the left would tend to agree it's a dead prospect these days - israel has done everything it can with the settlements to make it logistically impossible, and the prospect of a lasting peace from it seems like it would be even less likely. "jews should just clear out" is just more ethnic cleansing, it is not a serious or just position.

― ufo, Tuesday, 17 October 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Yes. This seems to tie a little bit with the Land back movement which goes on with the odd, small success.

I think the question is working it through to a one state solution and what to do with people who aren't prepared to accept it. People who think it was theirs all along.

In the meantime more displacement, and right this minute, is the order of the day.

This has got to be stopped.

settlers and the idf have killed 55 palestinians in the west bank and wounded 1100 since saturday. https://t.co/FBNOx9nhTi

— hasanabi (@hasanthehun) October 17, 2023

By the standards of how much support Israel usually polls at this is a total public relations collapse. Don’t know if I’ve ever seen them with minority support in polling before. https://t.co/rVsWkq3C1p

— ettingermentum (@ettingermentum) October 17, 2023

The President of the University of Pennsylvania has released her 3rd or 4th public statement apologizing for letting a Palestinian writers conference take place last month

Following up on this: UPenn's Palestinian students staged a walkout yesterday and held a 7 hour demonstration on campus.

Ben Gvir is such a goon. What he's doing is both murderous and idiotic.

“I’m Israeli Jewish, American as well. My partner is Palestinian. And I can do things that he can’t do.”@saribashi describes how Israel’s apartheid system affects everyday life in Israel and Palestine. pic.twitter.com/WevhmhMofJ

— Democracy Now! (@democracynow) October 17, 2023

Obviously, I’m not trying to parrot them, as both irl and on here, I have many many Jewish friends who are against the occupation and ongoing state violence.

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Tuesday, October 17, 2023 5:39 AM bookmarkflaglink

Eh... this may seem a petty point to pick up in this moment, but this is not obvious at all. Can we please get away from the idea that having Jewish friends somehow insulates a person from (intentionally or unintentionally) broadcasting harmful antisemitic ideas or tropes? I assure you that both things can be true at once.

I know you don’t like me, felicity, but perhaps you could not try to smear me at any chance you get.

BREAKING: Reports now of a massive massacre in Gaza after an Israeli strike hits a hospital in Gaza where hundreds were sheltered. Initial reports fear the worst.

— Yousef Munayyer (@YousefMunayyer) October 17, 2023

god this is so awful :(

would like to mention that i was on a small group zoom the other morning with some Israeli families who are understandably shaken up by all the events, all of whom were (surprising to me) sympathetic to Palestinians (while also understandably not feeling very generous towards Hamas), so there is some nuance in the feelings over there. I don't doubt all of those we spoke to want peace, they were not expressing hate or anger or feelings of vengeance, they were just expressing fear and sadness. and much like us in the United States when our country goes off on military adventures/interventions/insertions/overthrows, we're not all the same opinion.

More children have been killed in Gaza than Ukraine. One child every 15 minutes.

tabes, I think posters are responding to you because this was your first post and you haven't ceded an inch:

I’m just going to say that I am not in-between on this issue, but that should be obvious by now.

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Monday, October 16, 2023 1:31 PM

Indeed. It would be nice to have a thread where people could be assumed to feel horror at horrific things. Banning VHS was a good first step, and generally given the horrific events unfolding this thread has been full of thoughtful and well considered posts for the most part. Knock it off.

table I don't dislike you. I don't even know you. As far as I know you've apologized to me at least twice. I do not want to escalate this again to the point where you get upset and then say sorry only to repeat the cycle in a few days, months or years.

A lot of people are upset. Can we make peace just between you and me?

Holy shit that hospital strike is fucking awful

We are seeing unconfirmed reports from Hamas that Israeli warplanes have struck the Baptist Hospital in central Gaza.

A health spokesman is quoted estimating that hundreds of people were killed.

immediate ceasefire based on this

i do like table, but I agree that statement was a little to close to 'some of my best friends are jewish' for my liking.

I don't have a lot of constructive thoughts to offer up wrt the current crisis, but I would respectfully ask that we don't go down the path of questioning how much of a connection this or that Jewish person has to their ancestors, their history, the diaspora, the holocaust, etc or how much the Israeli occupation is or isn't like the holocaust. There are plenty of ways to talk about this stuff without indulging in those lines of thinking.

Israeli air strikes have hit Al Ahli hospital in Gaza. More than 500 people - patients, doctors & those sheltering - have been killed.

What unspeakable horror. We will mourn their loss forever.

Our leaders could have spoken up for peace. They chose to cheer on war instead.…

— Jeremy Corbyn (@jeremycorbyn) October 17, 2023

BREAKING: the number of Palestinians killed in the hospital bombing have now risen to 1,000.

First aiders say they can’t find any injured survivors. Only burnt body parts. https://t.co/CLrV5XO5QX

— Marwa Fatafta مروة فطافطة (@marwasf) October 17, 2023

I gotta wonder at what point will the Israeli opposition parties deeply regret taking part in the current "national unity" government while Bibi is still running the whole show and doing shit like this?

Moodles, for what it’s worth, I was paraphrasing a friend in the post you mention, but obviously won’t continue down that line of thinking itt because it seems fraught.

Alfred and others, I believe that most people in Israel-Palestine, regardless of religion or ethnicity, want peace within their communities and also with those outside their communities. Hamas and the State of Israel’s violence make this peace impossible, and the occupation makes this peace impossible. It’s an awful situation.

I mostly post about Palestine and the plight of those in the occupied territories because what has been going on there is a horror, tho that horror certainly would never justify horrors of terrorism committed by Hamas or other organizations. Given the lopsided, racist, and antisemitic coverage given by western media outlets, I simply feel it’s necessary to continue supporting the plight of Palestinian people as fully as possible.

Those tweets are to say the number isn't certain just yet xxp