Is this anti-semitism?

xp you could be described as a zionist anti-zionist based on those views which speaks to some of the terminological confusion going on here

I believe that Jewish people should have a state where they feel safe.

Maybe if Jews had been safe in every state, not in *a* state, zionism would never have come about.

maybe if the world was nice we could all live in peace

man alive, agreed—

the issue is whether the safety of Jewish people is predicated on a society of exclusion and enmity. i don’t believe it is, but maybe i am naïve

I suppose that hinges in part on how much anti-Semitism is predicated on the existence of (an) Israel versus the existence of Jews.

the issue is whether the safety of Jewish people is predicated on a society of exclusion and enmity. i don’t believe it is, but maybe i am naïve

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Thursday, October 19, 2023 8:35 AM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Well, as I think my long post in the other thread implied, if not made clear, (1) I don't think it necessarily does, since my family has lived relatively safely in the US since as far back as 1865, and (2) on the other hand, my wife's entire family would have been wiped out if they hadn't gone to Palestine. So I'm less interested in that question and more interested in what should we do now. Zionism happened and Israel exists. I am open to the idea that something else can come after it. There remains very little discussion on the table as to whether something else should replace the Muslim states in the region that have either no Jews left or a very tiny, almost invisible minority, such as Tunisia where the Al Hammah synagogue was just burned two days ago (I guess because the Jews who chose to remain in Tunisia must nonetheless be "zionists.")

As the person who came up with the strong wording in the current Israel thread there are a few things to reply to that I'll get to. First is that, as this thread from academic Yair Wallach talks through, Zionism has a history which was not necessarily one of elimination at the beginning.

But as the thread goes on displacement and elimination is where it's ended up xp

1/ It is often argued that the expulsion of Palestinians was written into the Zionist programme from its very beginning. A thread on why this is wrong.
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— Yair Wallach (@YairWallach) April 22, 2021

"It is possible to be pro-Palestinian, Zionist, and anti-violence at the same time, I think."

amen!

I'll posit that posting a big twitter thread to ILX probably isn't the best way to get your point across these days because so many of us deleted our accounts there and you cannot read threads without one now. So posts like this go uninvestigated.

I'm afraid I am on there and it saves me typing stuff that is expressed better by someone who in this case has poured over a lot of the literature.

imo Twitter is a place where people still post good content and there's no paywall yet, so it's legit to post threads here and your choice whether to go there and read them.

Nitter.net for you twitter allergic folks. Changed my life

Real question: One of the other speakers people were upset about at the Palestian Writes festival was Marc Lamont Hill, because he once said, "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free." Protestors were also chanting that after the walkout at Penn the other day. Is that phrase antisemitic?

there are people who argue that that slogan is calling for the elimination of Israel.

Afaict, it means the end of Israel, and is a Hamas motto, so ... probably?

"imo Twitter is a place where people still post good content and there's no paywall yet"

and tons of unverified warmongering garbage too.

well I doubt people are going to link to that stuff here

you never know...

also questionable as to whether the history and morality of Zionism is interchangeable with the question of whether the term "Zionist" can be anti-semitic

people can be quick to link during wartime.

there are still unexploded links left over from the last war

Real question: One of the other speakers people were upset about at the Palestian Writes festival was Marc Lamont Hill, because he once said, "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free." Protestors were also chanting that after the walkout at Penn the other day. Is that phrase antisemitic?

This irritating debate has been raging in the UK ever since our Nazi Home Secretary floated the idea of people being arrested for saying it.

so Israel can only exist if Palestine is not free?

It does feel like most ppl at odds in this thread have conflicting definitions of zionism.

zion is as zion does - bob marley

As the person who came up with the strong wording in the current Israel thread there are a few things to reply to that I'll get to. First is that, as this thread from academic Yair Wallach talks through, Zionism has a history which was not necessarily one of elimination at the beginning.

But as the thread goes on displacement and elimination is where it's ended up xp

That Twitter thread presents a particular version of history that I can understand informs your use. But the thread is not about use of the term "Zionist" and does not describe all people who consider themselves Zionists.

In other words, you are liable to sweep up a lot of innocent Jewish people under the term "Zionist" like Chuck Tatum's grandmother. When using "Zionism" in a pejorative context it's not fair to assume that everyone will know that you will mean the strain that went in a bad direction.

But it is fair to say that Jewish people get rightfully stressed and concerned when they a phrase like "Zionist scum" because often the meaning is vague, and it is the very vagueness that is upsetting and crazy-making. Hopefully you have read the posts explaining that this kind of stress is something Jewish posters can do without right now.

I think the term "Zionist" refers to a spectrum of ideas and attitudes, too broad to really define, the term has lost its use (or it needs to be redefined). "Zionist", in the modern context, seems to be general shorthand for "racist"; those who argue and act as if Jewish lives in the Israeli region are sacrosanct, and Arab lives are expendable. Considering that "Zionism" refers to a historical concept, it does seem dangerous to conflate the term as such.

Historical Zionism, in contrast, is clearly defined, the idea that since Napoleon the area of Palestine would be "given to the Jews" for the creation of a Jewish state. Claiming to be "anti-Zionism" in this regard is like, sure, I am also anti-Zionist, and don't think the state of Israel should've been created where it was, when it was. But, as man alive said, "Zionism happened and Israel exists"; I feel that in saying "I am against historical Zionism" also requires a rejoinder: "I don't think the present-day state of Israel should be eliminated", because I don't. It kind of needs to be stated as such, and re-stated. Israel needs to be redefined, and reorganised, but slogans like what Marc Lamont Hill have stated are unspecific and incendiary and dangerous and, yes, anti-Semitic. "From the river to the sea / Jews and Arabs will live in peace / in a secular democracy / an Israeli-Palestinian confederacy" is not as catchy, but would be a more effective rallying cry imo

people need to stop using the word scum. ugh. its like "garbage people". so gross. even if you are talking about people you hate.

I would say that "Zionist" as a pejorative can be and sometimes is used by people with purely ideological or ethical objections to Zionism as a political program, but it is also so often used by anti-Semites that I can't help instinctively shrinking away when I hear it, even though there's no intrinsic problem with the usage. It's sort of the Jewish analogue of refering to women as "females."

when i hear the word zionist used in the u.s. i IMMEDIATELY think its anti-jewish and i just wait to hear the word "soros" and the word "elite". so, its a dog whistle to me. but that's me. here. on the east coast of america. other people probably have completely different reactions to the word.

i mean "ZOG" is the hardcore whistle here in the states. not even a whistle. a bullhorn.

it does seem dangerous to conflate the term as such.

It's so interesting how much time and energy is spent trying to de-conflate this possibly antisemitic term, isn't it?

its like "garbage people". so gross.

Here, here!

https://i.imgur.com/0JoA6wu.png

"In other words, you are liable to sweep up a lot of innocent Jewish people under the term "Zionist" like Chuck Tatum's grandmother. When using "Zionism" in a pejorative context it's not fair to assume that everyone will know that you will mean the strain that went in a bad direction."

I am using this term to talk about Israeli leaders who are perpetrating ethnic cleansing. I guess I made an assumption that people will know that what I am not getting angry are those people and...not Chuck's grandmother.

people need to stop using the word scum. ugh. its like "garbage people". so gross. even if you are talking about people you hate.

― scott seward, Thursday, 19 October 2023 bookmarkflaglink

It's a beautiful word, and the title of a good (but brutal) film too.

there is something i keep forgetting....what was it again...??? oh yeah, i keep forgetting to NEVER TALK ABOUT THIS SHIT ON THE INTERNET. THAT's what i forgot. i'm going to put a little string on my finger so that i don't forget again. i know where i stand. as someone who didn't grow up with a tribe or a church or a country i love and who only worships art ALL of this stuff is so fucking frightening to me. religion in general just scares the hell out of me. its weird sometimes to be surrounded by christians. in life. not here.

adieu, mon freres. julio i love you. peace be with you.

if we can't call kier starmer "tory scum" then we've got to have a workable alternative

How about "Sir"? He's a knight, right.

What's up with that?

"Scum" should probably only be used following the modifiers "Tory", "Nazi" or "pond", and only in the latter instance when referring to actual pond scum

It's interesting, in Italy they refer to the bubbly mass on top of an espresso as "crema", i.e. "cream", the delicious emulsion on top of your coffee drink. In Eastern European languages, the same substance is referred to as "scuma", i.e. "scum". One person's scum is another person's cream I guess

Tory scum is fine, it's in a long line of angry British profanity that I'm sure includes many punk records scott loves despite his misgivings itt.

Luv footy, luv full english breakfast, luv saying tory scum, simple as. Don't like it? There's the door.

(xps) Three of the leaders of British political parties at the moment are knights of the realm. Ludicrous.

three of the four big parties are led by completely unlikeable weirdos now (Ed Davey the alpha male in this context and this context only), it's just the way our country works.

Knights of the Realm Table

when i hear the word zionist used in the u.s. i IMMEDIATELY think its anti-jewish and i just wait to hear the word "soros" and the word "elite". so, its a dog whistle to me. but that's me. here. on the east coast of america. other people probably have completely different reactions to the word.

― scott seward, Thursday, 19 October 2023 15:12 (thirty-four minutes ago) link

absolutely. there is no reason to use the word "zionism" when criticizing israeli policy.

there is no reason to use the word "capitalism" when criticizing american policy.

three of the four big parties are led by completely unlikeable weirdos now (Ed Davey the alpha male in this context and this context only), it's just the way our country works.

That's Sir Ed Davey btw.

Yeah, I've talked about the problems the term throws up in discussions but saying it should be off limits entirely in a conversation about Israeli policy seems unworkable - it's a real, if contested, thing that informs the situation in all kinds of ways, it's not some conspiracy dreamed up by anti-soros globalist types.

xpost

OTM

Looking at the word Zionist here seems fine to me?

Jewish-Americans occupy Congress to demand an immediate ceasefire and a free Palestine. Because Jews have always been part of an anti Zionist movement and US support for Israel is not about protecting Jews. #Gaza #Genocide #Ceasefire #FreePalestine pic.twitter.com/GNJdxJztq6

— Noura Erakat (@4noura) October 18, 2023

I think the discussion here is using it as a pejorative, as if it's something to be ashamed of and everyone should understand this.

Agree there are contexts where it is drier and genuinely useful.

Maybe it's an impossible distinction to articulate at any level of generality.