Oh fuck. Wishing I hadn’t said that now.
― I’m going to get fined for being right, again (gyac), Thursday, 19 October 2023 20:43 (eleven months ago) link
Lol.
But seriously, thank you for saying that gyac.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 19 October 2023 21:01 (eleven months ago) link
I don’t even know what Netanyahu and company thought the outcome of their short term plan that became the status quo was going to be. Occasional rockets from Gaza -> Iron Dome blocks most of it -> retaliatory strikes and conditions get progressively worse in Gaza, rinse and repeat… forever?I feel like there’s a lack of interest in the material conditions of everyone in the region from his government, just a consolidation and expansion of power riding on everyone’s shared misery. And I don’t think we’ve seen the end of that yet. It hurts.
― ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Thursday, 19 October 2023 21:17 (eleven months ago) link
gyac, I know that not everyone needs telling— my mom and her sister were born in a demilitarized zone after their families were liberated from Oflag X C Lübeck. My mother doesn't have a birth certificate. They arrived in the US with nothing because of Nazi terror. Perhaps you could take a fucking step back every once in a while and think that other people have reasons behind their opinions, too. You don't have a monopoly on being correct.
It's curious that when mentioning civilians, often, only Israeli civilians are mentioned. This again fits a pattern wherein there are pleas for "humanity" but the Arab and the Palestinian are left out of that equation, for reasons that are pretty easily identifiable.
With that, I'm not going to post anymore in this thread or the antisemitism thread. I hope that this current conflict ends with as little further bloodshed as possible on both sides, and that there might emerge a peaceful, one-state solution in our lifetimes that allows Israeli Jews, Israeli Arabs, Palestinians, and others in the Levant the dignity they deserve.
For everyone else, I hope that our ideological differences don't make any of you think I'm a monster. I certainly care about many of you and wish you and yours peace and safety.
― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Thursday, 19 October 2023 21:18 (eleven months ago) link
Is that really true today? It's certainly not true in this thread. Is it true on NPR or CNN or in the NYTimes or Wall Street Journal? That's certainly not what I've seen.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 19 October 2023 21:26 (eleven months ago) link
It's absolutely been true in my experience — I mentioned upthread that the news will talk about "Israeli civilians" or "the Israeli people" but will then talk about "Palestinians" without ever using words like "civilians" or even "people." It's (relatively) subtle but it's absolutely rhetorical dehumanization in action.
― read-only (unperson), Thursday, 19 October 2023 21:34 (eleven months ago) link
― I’m going to get fined for being right, again (gyac), Thursday, 19 October 2023 21:34 (eleven months ago) link
and that there might emerge a peaceful, one-state solution in our lifetimes that allows Israeli Jews, Israeli Arabs, Palestinians, and others in the Levant the dignity they deserve.
― I’m going to get fined for being right, again (gyac), Thursday, 19 October 2023 21:39 (eleven months ago) link
From that piece above:
"Whenever Palestinian resistance threatens to gum up imperialism, cities throughout the democratic West readily enact fascist policies, shutting down protests, firing or arresting dissenters, doing away with civil liberties, and demanding obedience."
They may have demanded obedience but governments haven't got it. There have been many demonstrations across Europe and the US. I can see a further shift of public opinion over time, which could lead to policy shift on Israel in the next decade.
While things look very bleak for Palestinians now it's a long game...
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 19 October 2023 21:42 (eleven months ago) link
This stuff is just not going to work:
https://www.nplusonemag.com/online-only/online-only/a-surge-in-suppression/
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 19 October 2023 21:49 (eleven months ago) link
They banned Palestinian solidarity demonstrations in France - but in Paris this evening people turned out anyway, and forced the cops to leave pic.twitter.com/xjkPOTKQ1N— Steven Methven (@StevenJMethven) October 19, 2023
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 19 October 2023 21:50 (eleven months ago) link
On the IDF's invincibility myth
I just keep finding these old threads where I repeatedly pointed out that the IDF is not capable of preventing infiltration from multiple borders 😮💨 while y’all were talking about some superpower force you made up in your heads… https://t.co/avfDrmxS8Z— تمار 🌴 Тама́р 🌴 תמר (@tamars) October 19, 2023
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 19 October 2023 22:36 (eleven months ago) link
I've been staying away from social media and just catching up on events via Jonathan Katz's Substack page. It's been excellent at putting everything in a historical context (Katz studied history before moving into journalism) but it's also mightily depressing. This in particular:
It’s notable to me that in his Tel Aviv speech, Biden again name-checked the “two-state solution”—the old dream of the 1990s that envisioned a Jewish state and a Muslim-majority Arab state living side by side, or in a sort of checkerboard, within the borders of the old British Mandate (plus or minus the Golan Heights). Anyone who has actually been paying attention to the situation on the ground for the past 20 years knows that dream is completely dead; it was killed by an explosion of Religious Zionist settlement activity in the West Bank that, as Netanyahu intended, has stripped the Palestinian Authority of even more of its potential land and rendered any possibility of drawing a border impossible. Biden doesn’t know this, or feels he has to say he doesn’t know this, because most Americans don’t know it; for most of those 20 years it has been in neither the government, nor media, nor either political party’s interest to look at those facts or communicate them. “Confirmation bias, political convenience, intellectual bankruptcy, and bureaucratic inertia,” as the resigned State Department official Josh Paul said.
― birdistheword, Thursday, 19 October 2023 22:41 (eleven months ago) link
The problem is that a one-state solution is even less likely.
― Zelda Zonk, Thursday, 19 October 2023 22:56 (eleven months ago) link
I think you could at least make the case that a one state solution is possible in the far future whereas I don’t know what a serious proposal for a two state solution could look like at this point. Anyone who is serious about a single binational state (I kind of dislike the word “solution”) would I think have to be playing a long game and thinking about how to lay groundwork.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 19 October 2023 23:42 (eleven months ago) link
Even after Israel told Palestinians to evacuate the north and head to what it called “safe zones” in the south, strikes continued across the territory overnight and Palestinian militants continued firing rockets into Israel.
― dow, Friday, 20 October 2023 01:01 (eleven months ago) link
the news will talk about "Israeli civilians" or "the Israeli people" but will then talk about "Palestinians" without ever using words like "civilians" or even "people."
I don't see this, I just googled "Palestinian civilians" site:nytimes.com and got page after page of hits, same for "Israeli civilians," e.g. in the first article that came up, which is from yesterday:
"Thousands of protesters marched in grief, fury and solidarity across the Middle East on Tuesday night and Wednesday, after hundreds of Palestinian civilians were killed in an explosion at a hospital in Gaza."
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Friday, 20 October 2023 01:22 (eleven months ago) link
Ny sister-in-law has completely lost her mind over this BBC reporting of the hospital explosion controversy and is posting all sorts of dubious stuff on Facebook, including the accusation about "blood libel" - for context, she did literally grow up on a kibbutz. The ironic thing is my brother used to work at the BBC and, during the Scottish Independence referendum, was constantly mocking nationalists accusing the BBC of bias.
― The First Time Ever I Saw Gervais (Tom D.), Friday, 20 October 2023 06:41 (eleven months ago) link
Bet you're looking forward to Christmas.
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 20 October 2023 06:50 (eleven months ago) link
Believe me I go nowhere near this subject with my brother and his family. Corbyn was bad enough.
― The First Time Ever I Saw Gervais (Tom D.), Friday, 20 October 2023 06:52 (eleven months ago) link
Apparently the BBC is to blame for the cancellation of Biden's trip to Jordan etc., the worsening relations in the Middle East as a whole and making Jews the world over feel less safe. Who knew the BBC was so powerful?
― The First Time Ever I Saw Gervais (Tom D.), Friday, 20 October 2023 08:51 (eleven months ago) link
Public opinion, pt 1.
58% of Britons think there should be an immediate ceasefire in Gaza.18% think there should probably be. Just 3% think definitely not.That 3% is the position of Labour, the Tories and most newspapers.Totally out of touch with public opinion. Ceasefire now! @YouGov pic.twitter.com/IwGnyRXlLc— Owen Jones (@OwenJones84) October 19, 2023
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 20 October 2023 09:18 (eleven months ago) link
pt2
Holy shit pic.twitter.com/THcVzvTol0— ettingermentum (@ettingermentum) October 20, 2023
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 20 October 2023 09:22 (eleven months ago) link
35% not supporting is higher than I would've thought.
Do you support or oppose a large-scale ground operation in Gaza?Support: 65%Oppose: 21%Don't Know: 14%via Lazar#Israel— Israel Elects (@israel_elects) October 20, 2023
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 20 October 2023 10:04 (eleven months ago) link
Pakistan is also making 155M shells for Ukraine for the US so this could get awkward https://t.co/MCJ2LiLqV9— Ryan Grim (@ryangrim) October 19, 2023
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 20 October 2023 10:10 (eleven months ago) link
A miracle saved us from Israeli missiles.Israel hit our building of 7 floors and 21 flats with two missiles penetrating floors 5 & 4 where they exploded killing a mother who was preparing food for her kids & two of her daughtersI had 30 civilians in my 3rd floor #gazagenocide https://t.co/6uPFi6PSIg pic.twitter.com/lrEbdeaTFF— Refaat in Gaza 🇵🇸 (@itranslate123) October 20, 2023
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 20 October 2023 15:36 (eleven months ago) link
Really don't see Netanyahu surviving this..
Just really rotten stuff.https://t.co/SAOL6okPxA pic.twitter.com/2lC3Dr3one— Abe Silberstein (@abesilbe) October 19, 2023
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 20 October 2023 15:51 (eleven months ago) link
I hadn't been previously aware but apparently he's a lame duck and not planning to run for anything again. I would say those associated with him are tainted now though. I hope they are.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 20 October 2023 16:02 (eleven months ago) link
where did you see that?
― symsymsym, Friday, 20 October 2023 16:29 (eleven months ago) link
actually a friend told me so it may be wrong, not sure the source and can't find anything now
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 20 October 2023 17:09 (eleven months ago) link
At least 18 people are reported to have been killed in an Israeli airstrike on a Greek Orthodox church compound in Gaza on Thursday. Palestinian officials said at least 500 Muslims and Christians had taken shelter in the church from Israeli bombardments.Waiting for a long Twitter rant from the IDF against The Guardian on this one
― nashwan, Friday, 20 October 2023 18:12 (eleven months ago) link
Likud guy Amir Weitmann going in two footed on RT, saying Russia will pay
― anvil, Friday, 20 October 2023 19:16 (eleven months ago) link
Okay this is important: the University of London's @ForensicArchi team, and veteran war crimes investigator @CobbSmith, are suggesting, not definitively yet, that the Gaza hospital attack was "more consistent w/ the impact marks from an artillery shell" fired by the Israelis. https://t.co/54UYcJR1dH— Mehdi Hasan (@mehdirhasan) October 20, 2023
― papal hotwife (milo z), Friday, 20 October 2023 19:37 (eleven months ago) link
It was on Channel 4 News earlier - not the murderous blood stained BBC - also the recorded message from Hamas members discussing the attack appears to have been "heavily edited".
― The First Time Ever I Saw Gervais (Tom D.), Friday, 20 October 2023 19:50 (eleven months ago) link
So maybe Twitter sleuths didn't solve this after all
― Beyond Goo and Evol (President Keyes), Friday, 20 October 2023 19:58 (eleven months ago) link
Got an absolutely worthless response from my rep touting this letter that he sent Biden - https://adamsmith.house.gov/_cache/files/a/3/a31a0979-6c28-4285-992d-94b513f3ad33/2251B35EAC0D7ACC5F1EA362BFF46DD7.quill---letter-l13380---letter-to-president-biden-on-israel---signed.pdf
― JoeStork, Friday, 20 October 2023 21:30 (eleven months ago) link
Okay this is important: the University of London's @ForensicArchi team, and veteran war crimes investigator @CobbSmith, are suggesting, not definitively yet, that the Gaza hospital attack was "more consistent w/ the impact marks from an artillery shell" fired by the Israelis. https://t.co/54UYcJR1dH— Mehdi Hasan (@mehdirhasan) October 20, 2023― papal hotwife (milo z), Friday, 20 October 2023 19:37 (two hours ago) link
An artillery shell... from where? A stealth mode tank that entered gaza in the middle of the night?
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 20 October 2023 21:53 (eleven months ago) link
Meanwhile, these are not "twitter sleuths"
https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231020-gaza-hospital-blast-was-caused-by-misfired-rocket-says-european-military-sourcehttps://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-biden/card/u-s-signals-intelligence-shows-gaza-militants-behind-hospital-blast-VwW5ysaxHfggbrnHgY0e
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 20 October 2023 21:58 (eleven months ago) link
A stealth mode tank that entered gaza in the middle of the night?
Command and Conquer in the hizzouse
― real warm grandpa (Neanderthal), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:03 (eleven months ago) link
(xp) Is that what Forensic Architecture are? Twitter sleuths?
― The First Time Ever I Saw Gervais (Tom D.), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:06 (eleven months ago) link
Modern artillery is famously only used at close range.
― papal hotwife (milo z), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:09 (eleven months ago) link
This feels like one of those events where we'll see competing narratives for years to come and not being a military/detonation expert nor feeling the slightest inclination to trust American intelligence or unnamed European military sources I kinda just have to accept that my answer will be "I don't know who did it" for the foreseeable.
― Daniel_Rf, Friday, 20 October 2023 22:09 (eleven months ago) link
Is that what Forensic Architecture are? Twitter sleuths?
I don't know if they are twitter sleuths, but they're hardly neutral in this.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 20 October 2023 22:20 (eleven months ago) link
yeah I raise my eyebrow a bit at these new 'OSINT' and "forensic architecture" experts that have arisen from....somewhere.
― I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:24 (eleven months ago) link
Forensic Architecture appears to have been around for 13 years and not even vaguely focused on Israel.
― papal hotwife (milo z), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:26 (eleven months ago) link
A conclusive investigation into this attack requires full access to the site and munition fragments, as well as witness interviews. We continue our work on this case, and reaffirm our solidarity with Palestinian people under attack, including our friends & colleagues.— Forensic Architecture (@ForensicArchi) October 20, 2023
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 20 October 2023 22:31 (eleven months ago) link
being objective and being neutral are separate things
― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 October 2023 22:34 (eleven months ago) link
For sure, which is why confirmation bias is a thing.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 20 October 2023 22:36 (eleven months ago) link
"aha! You are registered to vote for the DemoRAT party, therefore you're (Len) bias"
― real warm grandpa (Neanderthal), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:44 (eleven months ago) link
in all seriousness though, I mean, the other intelligence agencies determining it was Islamic Jihad are pro-Israel, one of which is Israel themselves so....
― real warm grandpa (Neanderthal), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:45 (eleven months ago) link