Is this anti-semitism?

This may be covered in the hidden bit above (not opening this gigantic thread to find out) but on that Know Your Enemy episode with the Jewish Currents crew they talked about how the ADL adopting its position that "anti-Zionism is antisemitism" was a significant change and departure from past decades.

Among other things, it seems to me (a goy) like a deliberate sidelining of secular Jews.

what does that first sentence mean?

just that Israelis have the power to end the occupation

This seems antisemitic, also a good example of "Zionist" used as a pejorative which I'd be inclined to classify as antisemitic rather than as an expression of a principled stance in favor of a secular democratic one-state solution

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2023/10/19/23924737/illinois-comptrollers-office-attorney-fired-over-anti-semitic-comments-on-instagram

yeesh

Definitely antisemitism. It's tricky because you can use it factually and nonprejudicially. But also can use it for racism.

Given 3-4 centuries of solid Protestant heritage (my grandparents were Mennonite, Anglican, Presbyterian and Southern Baptist, god knows when we even had a Catholic in the direct line), I feel like I don't get to say 'Zionist' unless I'm talking about Theodor Herzl specifically or something. It's hard to think of a scenario where I wouldn't be able to find less charged language no matter how critical of Israel I was aiming to be.

One person's scum is another person's cream I guess

I appreciate that..

just that Israelis have the power to end the occupation

― symsymsym, Friday, 20 October 2023 04:02 (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

ive been reading the conversations across both threads and appreciating most perspectives but i dont think the sentiment im picking up from the original post and the terse response (both of which are open somewhat to a lot of interpretation so possibly this is on me) are at all good ones.

do palestinians "have the power" to sway hamas? that's a line we're hearing to justify the ongoing collective punishment.

was every US citizen of voting age culpable in this way for the iraqi war and fallout? every uk citizen?

Plus I'm not sure any Israeli government in the last 30 years has ever had a majority, they all appear to be tortuous coalitions of sometimes very disparate parties.

I recognize that simply banning "the Z-word" doesn't make any sense whatsoever. It's a pretty complex issue.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 19 October 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Yes, it's absolutely useful and at the front and centre, but I recognise that enough has been said (by me for sure), for now.

XP it’s worth remembering that leading up to this, Israelis had been in the streets for almost a full year protesting the Netanyahu government, and while I think the disparate views among the protesters would not necessarily match those of the Free Palestine movement 1:1, many of them support an end to settlements in the West Bank, opposed curtailment of minority rights and free speech, opposed theocratic moves by the government, and were even refusing to do reserve duty over this. Very few of them would likely be in favor of an immediate move to a binational state but many would say Israel has gone too far in its treatment of Palestinians.

And ironically the communities where the October 7 massacre was carried out were much more likely to be Netanyahu opponents.

ive been reading the conversations across both threads and appreciating most perspectives but i dont think the sentiment im picking up from the original post and the terse response (both of which are open somewhat to a lot of interpretation so possibly this is on me) are at all good ones.

I think I see what you're getting at, and I don't think my original post was very clear at all. I certainly didn't mean that Israeli culpability for the occupation justifies violence against Israeli civilians. It was in the context of comparing two loathsome perspectives, which is a pointless exercise really.

do palestinians "have the power" to sway hamas? that's a line we're hearing to justify the ongoing collective punishment.

Palestinians haven't had an election in fifteen years, and they don't live in an independent state. President Herzog said Gazans should have done a coup on Hamas, which just seems unrealistic. otoh A majority of Israelis could vote tomorrow for someone whose top priority was ending the occupation, and it's the only non-violent way I can ever imagine this ending.

was every US citizen of voting age culpable in this way for the iraqi war and fallout? every uk citizen?

George Bush didn't even win the popular vote...Do Trump voters or Boris voters bear any culpability for the actions those leaders took? Their culpability doesn't justify collective punishment but it does make them fair targets for criticism.

Israel's been voting to maintain the occupation for at least 20-30 years. Americans voted en masse for politicians who promised to end the war on Iraq. There are a lot of reasons why Israelis vote the way they do, but the outcome of their collective decision making has been a disaster.

I grew up in Israel and I have close family there. I think I'm more comfortable critcizing Israelis directly than a lot of people on these threads. But trust me that I've been very upset over all these horrific events in the last two weeks.

xp that's a very fair description of the mass protests, and I was really encouraged to see that there was a point that the Israeli public would start rising against their extreme government. I just wish they hadn't voted for this govt in the first place - nothing in the Likud or Ben Gvir platform was a secret. And I did still feel they were missing the point - protests for democracy that weren't calling for Israel to become a full democracy.

In one of the Chotiner NYer interviews, this is what Nathan Thrall said about it:

I very much disagree with the entire premise of the protests over the judicial reform, which are based on the assumption by both sides that Israeli democracy is at stake. I do not see how any definition of democracy can include a situation in which one in ten Israeli Jews lives in the occupied territories and has full rights—voting rights, civil rights—and, when they go to and from their workplaces and their homes, they do not cross an international border. When the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics publishes the number of Jews and Arabs in the country, it lists the Jews living in the settlements. It doesn’t say that they’re living abroad. When the people vote in the settlements, they do not cast absentee ballots; in every sense, these people live inside the state of Israel alongside millions of people of a different ethnic group who are deprived of basic civil rights. That has existed for decades.

Appreciate your clarity and the context symsymsym

yes!

ironically the communities where the October 7 massacre was carried out were much more likely to be Netanyahu opponents

A lot of the people in those kibbutzes in the South were peace activists who devoted their life to helping people in Gaza, against all sorts of internal opposition from Israeli society. What happened to them is heartbreaking, and it's another reason why the idea that the death of Israeli civilians is something to celebrate is so infuriating - there just isn't much more any Israelis could be doing to end these injustices.

it's also a terrible irony that their deaths are being used to justify this invasion. Their relatives' pleas for peace have been very moving:

Noy Katsman knew the eulogy for their murdered brother would anger some who came to mourn, but did not want the violence of Hayim Katsman’s death to eclipse his life as a peace activist.

Grief and loss at Hayim’s slaughter was magnified by watching Israel launch a war in his name, said Noy, who is non-binary. So at the funeral, relying on a Jewish tradition of respect for the bereaved, Noy called for it to stop.

“Do not use our death and our pain to bring the death and pain of other people and other families,” Noy told the hundreds-strong crowd, as the government bombed Gaza and prepared for a massive ground invasion. “I have no doubt that even in the face of Hamas people that murdered him … he would still speak out against the killing and violence of innocent people.”

Arguing against retaliation in Gaza, as Israel reels from the scale and brutality of the massacres by Hamas on 7 October, is unpopular. At one point in the eulogy the mourners tutted in anger and disapproval.

But afterwards Hayim’s friends came to thank Noy. “One told me: ‘It’s exactly what your brother would have wanted you to say.’”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/19/do-not-use-our-death-to-bring-death-plea-to-israel-from-peace-activists-grieving-families

idk. thinking about it, i respect that a lot. the ones who speak when nobody's listening. i was in a bad headspace this morning, hell, am still in a bad headspace, but it's nice to be reminded that speaking up for what's right is worth doing, even if nobody really wants to hear it.

In one of the Chotiner NYer interviews, this is what Nathan Thrall said about it:

I very much disagree with the entire premise of the protests over the judicial reform, which are based on the assumption by both sides that Israeli democracy is at stake. I do not see how any definition of democracy can include a situation in which one in ten Israeli Jews lives in the occupied territories and has full rights—voting rights, civil rights—and, when they go to and from their workplaces and their homes, they do not cross an international border. When the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics publishes the number of Jews and Arabs in the country, it lists the Jews living in the settlements. It doesn’t say that they’re living abroad. When the people vote in the settlements, they do not cast absentee ballots; in every sense, these people live inside the state of Israel alongside millions of people of a different ethnic group who are deprived of basic civil rights. That has existed for decades.

― symsymsym, Friday, October 20, 2023 11:27 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

I think this is right in a certain analytical sense and yet I don't completely agree with it. Because democracy doesn't exist in any perfect state and is always in flux, and even where it has not been realized, having more freedom to push for it is better than having less freedom to do so. It's still better to live in a democracy that isn't a democracy for all but where it is still possible to push to make it a democracy for all, vs living in a totalitarian state where any dissent is quashed. The judicial reforms would have moved Israel significantly closer to the latter. I don't think that the protests "prove Israel is a true democracy" or "prove that Israel is good" but it proves that people are not ready to completely give up on the possibility that it can become more democratic for all.

I think this is right in a certain analytical sense and yet I don't completely agree with it. Because democracy doesn't exist in any perfect state and is always in flux, and even where it has not been realized, having more freedom to push for it is better than having less freedom to do so. It's still better to live in a democracy that isn't a democracy for all but where it is still possible to push to make it a democracy for all, vs living in a totalitarian state where any dissent is quashed. The judicial reforms would have moved Israel significantly closer to the latter. I don't think that the protests "prove Israel is a true democracy" or "prove that Israel is good" but it proves that people are not ready to completely give up on the possibility that it can become more democratic for all.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive)

hell, maybe the protesters have different reasons or feelings about democracy! collectively they might form some of, i don't know. popular front, or something!

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/montypython/images/e/e6/JudeanPeoplesFront.png/revision/latest?cb=20210409144838

Goddamit

https://themoviescreenscene.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/aaaaaaaa-4.jpg?w=1024

fair point man alive

Appreciate both your comments.

From the article Tom D. posted in the Israel-Palestine thread:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/its-simply-a-call-for-freedom-marchers-defend-contentious-slogan-at-london-palestine-protest

Ruhal Tarafder had arrived with his family to register “disgust with the UK government and its complicity in war crimes”. The 49-year-old said he was happy not to sing “From the river to the sea” if it offended the Jewish community. “It’s not a problematic term for me, but if people have a problem with it, then there are millions of other things that could be sung.”

His two children were more preoccupied with stopping the killing. Five-year-old Ibrahim – barely audible over the roar of a police helicopter – pleaded: “Let Gaza live.”

His brother Salahadeen, seven, shared a similarly pithy message for global politicians: “I just wish they would debate more.”

Ibrahim and Salahadeen otm

fair point man alive

― symsymsym, Sunday, 22 October 2023 01:45 (thirty-one minutes ago) link

And yours are fair too -- I mean there are reasons my wife's family left Israel. And unfortunately there's a kind of vicious cycle that has occurred where people who are less ideologically driven and open to compromise are also less likely to stay there, whereas the ideologically driven are more likely to move there.

"In the eyes of the home secretary, however, Herman is an antisemite. Last week, Suella Braverman intervened on the issue, saying it is “widely understood” that the chant calls for the destruction of Israel."

Look at who else is saying this slogan is AS.

"Free, free Palestine" also not ok according to the Police

The Conservative Minister for London referred to the protests as an "on-trend bandwagon." They are well aware that the tide is turning, and that Israeli propaganda and lies are losing influence. The people stand with Palestine 🇵🇸♥️ https://t.co/a9o81KNe3g pic.twitter.com/Kbyb1dYGtW

— #BlackLivesMatterUK (@ukblm) October 22, 2023

xyzzz, what is your point?

We were having this conversation in the context of the Penn incident.

Real question: One of the other speakers people were upset about at the Palestian Writes festival was Marc Lamont Hill, because he once said, "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free." Protestors were also chanting that after the walkout at Penn the other day. Is that phrase antisemitic?

― Beyond Goo and Evol (President Keyes), Thursday, October 19, 2023 7:37 AM bookmarkflaglink

Second of all, you are not the best barometer of what is AS. As demonstrated just very recently in this thread.

You are a real cuddle bunny in person. But the absolute tone deafness in suggesting to a Jewish American person that you know best how to identify anti-semiticism after stoking the flames yourself is a bit hard to take. Is this backlash?

I get that AS has been twisted and toxified in the UK. And I am sorry that's happened.

I don't speak for everyone. But here I would say AS dog whistles and codes are something people keep an eye on, and people are asking in good faith because they genuinely don't know. It doesn't merit snark to the degree they are getting it, I don't think.

People in my city are also heavily armed and extremely unpredictable. So while I appreciate the suggestion to speak to someone who has a hang glider pinned to their backpack, no, I am not going to do that.

"xyzzz, what is your point?"

That you've pulled out quotes from the piece that are agreeing with the opinion that "from the river to the sea" is seen as aggressive by some (veering towards the AS) while not pulling out what our racist home secretary thinks of it?

President Keyes can look at the range of opinion on that slogan on the other thread.

I don't speak for anyone. I am no barometer of opinion but if a thing I said gets dragged here I am going to speak.

---
So while I appreciate the suggestion to speak to someone who has a hang glider pinned to their backpack, no, I am not going to do that.

― felicity, Sunday, 22 October 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Wasn't asking you to speak. But that they should be spoken to internally by the group they are with, perhaps? In the UK the Met Police are trying to find people that are doing this and I don't think that's a solution. That was my point.

bad faith actors agree with points that can be twisted to further their agenda all the time, doesn't really reflect on the point itself either way

(tbc I agree with you re: the actual chant, but nevertheless)

That you've pulled out quotes from the piece that are agreeing with the opinion that "from the river to the sea" is seen as aggressive by some (veering towards the AS) while not pulling out what our racist home secretary thinks of it?

Agree that neither of of us quoted the UK's racist home secretary when quoting from the same article.

Here is what you quoted:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/its-simply-a-call-for-freedom-marchers-defend-contentious-slogan-at-london-palestine-protest

― The First Time Ever I Saw Gervais (Tom D.), Saturday, 21 October 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Lol.

"Teacher Philip Grayson seemed incredulous when told the slogan he had been singing moments earlier had been labelled antisemitic. “Really? I genuinely had no idea.” The 47-year-old added: “I hated Corbyn for how he behaved on this issue.”"

― xyzzzz__, Saturday, October 21, 2023 11:47 AM bookmarkflaglink

Not sure why it's only my job to quote Braverman.

Wasn't asking you to speak. But that they should be spoken to internally by the group they are with, perhaps? In the UK the Met Police are trying to find people that are doing this and I don't think that's a solution. That was my point.

― xyzzzz__, Sunday, October 22, 2023 3:17 AM bookmarkflaglink

That sounds absolutely fascist and horrible. I am sorry the police are doing that.

there is a builder down the road from me with "Free Palestine" on his van, which in any normal democratic country couldn't possibly be something that could get you in trouble with the law.

No it should not. I don't think "Free Palestine" is problematic at all. Really sad if that's become an issue.

I quoted Ruhal Tarafder, the protester from that Guardian article, because he seemed to think using other words than the one phrase was no big deal. I found the small accommodation a moving gesture of support to Jewish people. That's all.

Not sure why it's only my job to quote Braverman.

― felicity, Sunday, 22 October 2023 bookmarkflaglink

I quoted that bit at Tom D to point out how The Guardian are still finding time to get any anti-Corbyn line, even at this time when he has gone back to being a backbench politician.

Not applying for a job on this but I wanted to point out that there are some terrible people pushing a line that any slogans and chanting is bad, and that given the context you could be arrested by the cops or sacked from your workplace, or harassed. That's all.

That is terrible. I am sorry about that.

Meanwhile I wondering if you are reading the stories people are posting in this thread about what is going on in the US. If you have I dont remember you acknowledging them.

There was just a university professor put on leave for posting on Twitter:

"One group of ppl we have easy access to in the US is all these zionist journalists who spread propaganda & misinformation,” she wrote. “They have houses w addresses, kids in school. They can fear their bosses, but they should fear us more.” [knife, axe, blood, blood, blood emoji]

This idea that people need to shut up if they don't precisely agree on a consensus of what chants and slogans mean or be ridiculed and shamed for even asking is something I just don't understand.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/detroit-synagogue-president-found-fatally-stabbed-home-rcna121559

xp - not telling anyone to shut up, merely putting across what's going on in the UK.

I'll stop by on US threads only now and then

I know. That wasn't to you.

Ok

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/detroit-synagogue-president-found-fatally-stabbed-home-rcna121559

This doesn't appear to be linked to the current situation in Israel/Gaza btw.

Yeah, as the subhead says, "Detroit's police chief urged the public not to speculate on motive."

That didn't stop all the online weirdos from using it to attack Rashida Talib

Yeah, that is/was ... weird.

I can't find it now but I thought Tlaib actually said she had considered Woll a friend. Woll was apparently very involved in Jewish-Muslim community relations.