Meanwhile, these are not "twitter sleuths"
https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231020-gaza-hospital-blast-was-caused-by-misfired-rocket-says-european-military-sourcehttps://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-biden/card/u-s-signals-intelligence-shows-gaza-militants-behind-hospital-blast-VwW5ysaxHfggbrnHgY0e
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 20 October 2023 21:58 (ten months ago) link
A stealth mode tank that entered gaza in the middle of the night?
Command and Conquer in the hizzouse
― real warm grandpa (Neanderthal), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:03 (ten months ago) link
(xp) Is that what Forensic Architecture are? Twitter sleuths?
― The First Time Ever I Saw Gervais (Tom D.), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:06 (ten months ago) link
Modern artillery is famously only used at close range.
― papal hotwife (milo z), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:09 (ten months ago) link
This feels like one of those events where we'll see competing narratives for years to come and not being a military/detonation expert nor feeling the slightest inclination to trust American intelligence or unnamed European military sources I kinda just have to accept that my answer will be "I don't know who did it" for the foreseeable.
― Daniel_Rf, Friday, 20 October 2023 22:09 (ten months ago) link
Is that what Forensic Architecture are? Twitter sleuths?
I don't know if they are twitter sleuths, but they're hardly neutral in this.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 20 October 2023 22:20 (ten months ago) link
yeah I raise my eyebrow a bit at these new 'OSINT' and "forensic architecture" experts that have arisen from....somewhere.
― I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:24 (ten months ago) link
Forensic Architecture appears to have been around for 13 years and not even vaguely focused on Israel.
― papal hotwife (milo z), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:26 (ten months ago) link
A conclusive investigation into this attack requires full access to the site and munition fragments, as well as witness interviews. We continue our work on this case, and reaffirm our solidarity with Palestinian people under attack, including our friends & colleagues.— Forensic Architecture (@ForensicArchi) October 20, 2023
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 20 October 2023 22:31 (ten months ago) link
being objective and being neutral are separate things
― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 October 2023 22:34 (ten months ago) link
For sure, which is why confirmation bias is a thing.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 20 October 2023 22:36 (ten months ago) link
"aha! You are registered to vote for the DemoRAT party, therefore you're (Len) bias"
― real warm grandpa (Neanderthal), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:44 (ten months ago) link
in all seriousness though, I mean, the other intelligence agencies determining it was Islamic Jihad are pro-Israel, one of which is Israel themselves so....
― real warm grandpa (Neanderthal), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:45 (ten months ago) link
and it also does feel a lil gross (not that I'm against sharing these updates itt) for all of the people spending their time speculating on whose fault it is with Substack level data when a lot of people in that building or the lot surrounding it died in fairly grisly, traumatic fashion. and when others are still being bombed as we speak
― real warm grandpa (Neanderthal), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:46 (ten months ago) link
may I just recall to mind the sterling work done by our US intelligence agencies in the runup to the Iraq War?
― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:52 (ten months ago) link
I’m done discussing it. You guys believe what you want to believe. There’s no way Hamas would lie.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:53 (ten months ago) link
I have not drawn any conclusion since the latest info over the last few days emerged, but was supporting what Tracer said in that the Forensic Architecture account's take on the matter isn't invalidated by their supporting of Palestinians. (it might be invalidated by simply having insufficient data or drawing questionable conclusions, but you can't expect people examining data not to be human beings and have formed an opinion on the matter).
― real warm grandpa (Neanderthal), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:56 (ten months ago) link
There’s no way Hamas would lie.
This is patently untrue, but the easily divined thought behind it is curiously unhelpful to reaching any kind of useful conclusion.
― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:57 (ten months ago) link
in the end, innocent civilians pay the price
― real warm grandpa (Neanderthal), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:58 (ten months ago) link
4000 (Palestinians) and counting
― nashwan, Friday, 20 October 2023 23:03 (ten months ago) link
“forensic architecture” pop-science accounts are giving me covid flashbacks
― k3vin k., Saturday, 21 October 2023 00:23 (ten months ago) link
xxp Also Israeli civilians, although usually a lot more Palestinians in previous situations, so probably the current conflict as well. Terror is terror, and governments, no matter how culpable, no matter how out of their depth, have to respond very quickly, which is the point of terror. The release of two American hostages may be a good sign, but who knows how significant.
― dow, Saturday, 21 October 2023 00:33 (ten months ago) link
FYI: if it's the same Forensic Architecture led by Eyal Weizman at Goldsmiths a serious, long-standing and award-winning research outfit that's done a lot of work documenting human rights abuses, discrediting official lies, etc., in various contexts. Not to say they could never be wrong about anything --- but they're not random Twitter sleuths. Worth Googling IMHO.
― not the one who's tryin' to dub your anime (Doctor Casino), Saturday, 21 October 2023 00:42 (ten months ago) link
Oops, missing an ", then it's."
― not the one who's tryin' to dub your anime (Doctor Casino), Saturday, 21 October 2023 00:43 (ten months ago) link
Well, that's a reasonable response I must say. Some pretty respectable research group casts doubt on the IDF's claims - they don't actually say The Israelis Did It btw - and it's reported on this thread, because it's interesting and where else would you put it? And that's it, what's the big deal?
― The First Time Ever I Saw Gervais (Tom D.), Saturday, 21 October 2023 00:48 (ten months ago) link
The story was covered on the national news on British television, that's where I heard about it. Admittedly I am expecting some mouthpiece of the Israeli government to pop up any minute and accuse Channel 4 of blood libel alongside the BBC.
― The First Time Ever I Saw Gervais (Tom D.), Saturday, 21 October 2023 00:51 (ten months ago) link
Just caught a couple of minutes of a CBS reporter talking about witnessing IDF snipers shoot eight West Bank protesters and then dismissed it as tempers flaring on both sides, super cool media we’ve got here.
― papal hotwife (milo z), Saturday, 21 October 2023 02:15 (ten months ago) link
has this reporter ever heard of combat units operating under 'rules of engagement'? if so, then a clever reporter might have asked whether killing protestors fell within those rules. "tempers flaring" is either a wrong interpretation of an official; policy or else he was describing a war crime and court martial offense.
― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Saturday, 21 October 2023 03:38 (ten months ago) link
7 influential accounts are warping Israel-Hamas news on X, researchers findThe University of Washington’s Center for an Informed Public said that the most popular posts about the crisis revealed how news on the platform is “faster, more disorienting, and potentially more shaped by Musk himself.”
― dow, Saturday, 21 October 2023 03:59 (ten months ago) link
Forensic Architecture does extremely good and serious work and its founder/lead Eyal Weizman is an Israeli.
― steely flan (suzy), Saturday, 21 October 2023 07:19 (ten months ago) link
It's even more interesting when you go directly to the study, which is linked in that article - as expected, it goes into detail re: their methodology:
https://www.cip.uw.edu/2023/10/20/new-elites-twitter-x-most-influential-accounts-hamas-israel/
― birdistheword, Saturday, 21 October 2023 07:20 (ten months ago) link
eyal weizman of forensic architecture is also from israel
― conrad, Saturday, 21 October 2023 07:23 (ten months ago) link
Conrad, are you capable of reading two posts above?
― steely flan (suzy), Saturday, 21 October 2023 08:40 (ten months ago) link
I am but I don't
― conrad, Saturday, 21 October 2023 12:25 (ten months ago) link
WTF! Sons of Satan!Israeli military throw warning papers over Gaza city declaring that any civilian in North Gaza strip is liable for death. Adding a clear genocidal statement “Anyone who chose to remain in North Gaza would be considered a partner of a terrorist organization” pic.twitter.com/BBwdx1JeBW— Younis Tirawi | يونس (@ytirawi) October 21, 2023
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 21 October 2023 13:39 (ten months ago) link
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/the-most-successful-land-grab-strategy-since-1967-as-settlers-push-bedouins-off-west-bank-territory
― rob, Saturday, 21 October 2023 13:42 (ten months ago) link
maybe this doesn't need saying, but ^that is why I believe it is accurate to call Israel a settler colony (not because of its founding as a nation), and why posts rhetorically q'ing if white people should vacate North America miss the point imo
― rob, Saturday, 21 October 2023 13:47 (ten months ago) link
It is unfortunate that this article fails to mention that large numbers of Israeli people are beyond upset with the settlers, livid with the government's failure to stop these illegal settlements, and terrified that the settlers are giving Israeli people a bad name worldwide.
It is a point that has been made countless times in this thread and in reporting all over the world.
― felicity, Saturday, 21 October 2023 14:40 (ten months ago) link
I don't think that's an entirely fair read. There are several Israeli activists interviewed and quoted in the piece (e.g., the quote in the headline is from an Israeli), and the story of one activist being assaulted by settlers is told. That said, I have no expertise on this issue and would be curious to know more about public sentiment in Israel if you know of anything I could read.
― rob, Saturday, 21 October 2023 15:14 (ten months ago) link
And if we die, speak for us:here were people who dreamt of travel, love, life and other things— Hiba Abu Al NadaGaza https://t.co/kdxQ9BMkjt— sough (@Vorfrreude) October 21, 2023
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 21 October 2023 15:37 (ten months ago) link
There has been a fair bit of discussion on the "Is this anti-semitism?" thread on ILE lately.
This also comes up quite a bit on the r/worldnews discussions on Reddit. There's also a lot of snark, misinformation, and the usual internet noise in the comments, but the mods do a decent job of weeding out blatant hate speech and there is a premium on sourcing claims. And then debating the citations, etc.
Sometimes people come along on reddit and ask - Can someone please explain what is going on like I am 5? Which is a fair question given the state of domestic politics all over the world is exhausting just to keep up. I've seen those people sometimes directed to the Wikipedia page on the 2023 Israel-Hamas War I recommend you also look at the "Talk" page for that article to see all the nomenclature and facts that people are debating at any given time.
Those are just a few fairly arbitrarily selected places to look. I am sure others will suggest more.
― felicity, Saturday, 21 October 2023 15:45 (ten months ago) link
xp to rob
― felicity, Saturday, 21 October 2023 15:50 (ten months ago) link
The last pro-Palestine rally in London was described as "an intimidating mob" by Suella Braverman. How is she going to describe today's rally at which, according to the police, there were 100,000 people and no arrests - not a single one.
― The First Time Ever I Saw Gervais (Tom D.), Saturday, 21 October 2023 15:58 (ten months ago) link
feel like she's been a lot quieter since Conference but never enough
― nashwan, Saturday, 21 October 2023 15:59 (ten months ago) link
As usual with police the world over any estimates of numbers at demonstrations and protests to be taken with a pinch of salt.
― The First Time Ever I Saw Gervais (Tom D.), Saturday, 21 October 2023 16:00 (ten months ago) link
xps this is a study from 2016, but no reason why the numbers would be much different now:
A plurality of Israeli Jews (42%) say the settlements help the security of Israel, compared with 30% who say the settlements actually hurt Israel’s security and 25% who say building settlements does not make a difference either way.
Israeli Jews’ opinions about settlements are strongly tied to their political ideology. Only 13% of those on the left side of the ideological spectrum say the building of settlements helps the security of Israel. Among those on the right, 62% say the continued building of settlements helps the security of the country.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/the-peace-process-settlements-and-u-s-support/
― symsymsym, Saturday, 21 October 2023 16:07 (ten months ago) link
This was a good big-picture primer, I thought:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRYZjOuUnlU
I haven't watched the more up to date follow-up videos yet.
― Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 21 October 2023 16:10 (ten months ago) link
xp to be fair, a lot of things have happened since 2016.
― felicity, Saturday, 21 October 2023 16:11 (ten months ago) link
can't argue with that
― symsymsym, Saturday, 21 October 2023 16:14 (ten months ago) link
thanks, symsymsym, that was what I was wondering about specifically (Israeli attitudes to the settlements). I do think 7 years is old for a poll though.
― rob, Saturday, 21 October 2023 16:15 (ten months ago) link