Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/the-most-successful-land-grab-strategy-since-1967-as-settlers-push-bedouins-off-west-bank-territory

maybe this doesn't need saying, but ^that is why I believe it is accurate to call Israel a settler colony (not because of its founding as a nation), and why posts rhetorically q'ing if white people should vacate North America miss the point imo

It is unfortunate that this article fails to mention that large numbers of Israeli people are beyond upset with the settlers, livid with the government's failure to stop these illegal settlements, and terrified that the settlers are giving Israeli people a bad name worldwide.

It is a point that has been made countless times in this thread and in reporting all over the world.

I don't think that's an entirely fair read. There are several Israeli activists interviewed and quoted in the piece (e.g., the quote in the headline is from an Israeli), and the story of one activist being assaulted by settlers is told. That said, I have no expertise on this issue and would be curious to know more about public sentiment in Israel if you know of anything I could read.

And if we die, speak for us:
here were people who dreamt of travel, love, life and other things

— Hiba Abu Al Nada
Gaza https://t.co/kdxQ9BMkjt

— sough (@Vorfrreude) October 21, 2023

There has been a fair bit of discussion on the "Is this anti-semitism?" thread on ILE lately.

This also comes up quite a bit on the r/worldnews discussions on Reddit. There's also a lot of snark, misinformation, and the usual internet noise in the comments, but the mods do a decent job of weeding out blatant hate speech and there is a premium on sourcing claims. And then debating the citations, etc.

Sometimes people come along on reddit and ask - Can someone please explain what is going on like I am 5? Which is a fair question given the state of domestic politics all over the world is exhausting just to keep up. I've seen those people sometimes directed to the Wikipedia page on the 2023 Israel-Hamas War I recommend you also look at the "Talk" page for that article to see all the nomenclature and facts that people are debating at any given time.

Those are just a few fairly arbitrarily selected places to look. I am sure others will suggest more.

xp to rob

The last pro-Palestine rally in London was described as "an intimidating mob" by Suella Braverman. How is she going to describe today's rally at which, according to the police, there were 100,000 people and no arrests - not a single one.

feel like she's been a lot quieter since Conference but never enough

As usual with police the world over any estimates of numbers at demonstrations and protests to be taken with a pinch of salt.

xps this is a study from 2016, but no reason why the numbers would be much different now:

A plurality of Israeli Jews (42%) say the settlements help the security of Israel, compared with 30% who say the settlements actually hurt Israel’s security and 25% who say building settlements does not make a difference either way.

Israeli Jews’ opinions about settlements are strongly tied to their political ideology. Only 13% of those on the left side of the ideological spectrum say the building of settlements helps the security of Israel. Among those on the right, 62% say the continued building of settlements helps the security of the country.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/the-peace-process-settlements-and-u-s-support/

Those are just a few fairly arbitrarily selected places to look. I am sure others will suggest more.

This was a good big-picture primer, I thought:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRYZjOuUnlU

I haven't watched the more up to date follow-up videos yet.

xp to be fair, a lot of things have happened since 2016.

can't argue with that

thanks, symsymsym, that was what I was wondering about specifically (Israeli attitudes to the settlements). I do think 7 years is old for a poll though.

yeah my sense is that views on the settlements would be pretty baked in so the general proportions would be similar now.

I was at the London demo and people were saying more like 300,000. Always the same story with the count. It was very good natured. Tons of families and teenagers and old gents etc.

If “from the river to the sea / Palestine will be free” really were calling for the destruction of Israel you’d expect a lot more chants calling for, well, the destruction of Israel, but there was nothing like that. Probably the worst that was said - and it was said repeatedly - was “Israel is a terrorist state”.

What do you think "from the river to the sea / Palestine will be free” means?

what does it sound like

I'm sure "land back" also kind of sounds like "white genocide" if you've already decided that's what it has to mean

I thought this article on the different things meant by the phrase was illuminating, was planning to share it in the other thread where the topic was brought up:

https://forward.com/opinion/415250/from-the-river-to-the-sea-doesnt-mean-what-you-think-it-means/

Maybe it's a good discussion for that thread. That article raises a lot of questions.

In what way has Hamas distanced itself from the more extreme elements of its charter? That article, which makes that claim, merely links to Amazon and what looks like a self published book.

Citing only Hamas leaders’ use of the phrase, while disregarding the liberationist context in which other Palestinians understand it, shows a disturbing level of ignorance about Palestinians’ views at best, and a deliberate attempt to smear their legitimate aspirations at worst.

Even that article agrees that Hamas uses that slogan. The timing of large crowds chanting this Hamas slogan coming so soon after the Hamas October 7, 2023 massacres does raise some concerns.

I read about some demonstrators in Brighton pinning images of hang gliders to their backpacks. Serious question: are we saying this is fine because if people did want more massacring you'd expect the hang glider backpack people to say so?

I also believe in free speech and do not think people should be arrested for this. But it's kind of wtf.

it's fine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter

there is actual genocide happening right now by the way and it's perverse to fixate on an imagined genocide suggested by the most paranoid reading of a well understood phrase within the palestine liberation movement

Depends on your perspective and the context. Poster Keyes asked what it means on the "is this anti-semitism?" thread." To me this is an indicator that the phrase is not well understood. I'd suggest that thread might be a good place to continue that discussion?

The people carrying those photos could be talked to about those. As far as I'd go and absolutely never involve Police.

The slogan "from the river to the sea" I see it as fine. Its used within the wider Palestinian movement xp

That article, which makes that claim, merely links to Amazon and what looks like a self published book.

― Josh in Chicago, Saturday, October 21, 2023 1:04 PM (twenty-three minutes ago)

a minor point, but that isn't a self-published book. The publisher, Pluto Press, is listed on the page, and the author is "a Palestinian academic, a senior research fellow at the Centre of Islamic Studies and the co-ordinator of the Cambridge Arab Media Project (CAMP) at the University of Cambridge." (wiki)

xp Again, depends on the context and your perspective. I think the signal in Brighton may not be the same as how it is received at UC Davis California.

Yes Pluto is a commie press.

https://www.plutobooks.com/

the phrase well understood by palestinians and their allies and not so much by people who insist on assuming there is a secret genocidal agenda to everything palestinians do and say! xps

Ok! I still think the antisemitism thread is a good place to make this case. Since other posters have been asking there.

a minor point, but that isn't a self-published book.

My mistake. My point was mostly that he makes a bold claim, links to what I assumed would be evidence, or even a quote or something, but instead it's just an ebook being sold.

I generally think this is a poor line of critique. Just because something is e-published doesnt mean anything. Especially if you assume there is a reason dissidents don't have the same access to print publishing.

Heh, that's not what I mean, sorry for being unclear. Just that the citation is a link to a book, period. Not a phrase in the book or an interview in the book, or a chapter of a book, just a place to buy the book. It'd be like me saying "Blue Velvet" is a terrible movie, and linking to Roger Ebert's "Your Movie Sucks."

Or, you know, something like that.

A quotation or a page number would have been stronger evidence, but tbf referencing a whole book in an academic article is a totally normal citation practice

right, it was a widely reported shift in 2017: https://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-hamas-charter-20170501-story.html

takes from 2017 or 2018 (like the Forward article) about this revision being evidence of a kinder gentler Hamas have not aged well clearly

Oh I see. The article was also behind a subscription wall that I had to give my email address to and be signed up on some sort of a list.

But hey, that's how committed I am to having these discussions in good faith.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/its-simply-a-call-for-freedom-marchers-defend-contentious-slogan-at-london-palestine-protest

jfc please stop entertaining this bullshit

directed @ the "free world" in general which is repulsively eager to paint a people undergoing genocide as the perpetrators

ime a lot of liberals are fucking desperate to find any excuse to withdraw any token acknowledgements of palestinian suffering and the flimsiest presence will do

*pretence

They are suffering. It's inhumane and fucked up to cut off water and electricity to millions of innocent people, shoot a bunch of journalists and then claim the news coverage is slanted. I already said this. Will say it again.

My mother grew up in occupied Manchuria, almost starved to death during multiple sieges and fled because the Chinese communists shot anyone on site that anyone claimed was a collaborator. Nobody here is in favor of forced migration or genocide and we don't all live in a white American bubble. Ok?

I don't either but OK. I'm sorry about what your family went through.

however I have learned not to expect that people - even people I have trusted in the past - are necessarily opposed to those things - in fact many seem eager to embrace them as once they're handed the right framings by the media (and the mere existence of that chant will be enough for some)

Anyone who's going to be actually influenced or change their opinion about the situation based on what some protesters somewhere chant on some march, or what they mean by that chant, is a deeply unserious person probably trying to mask their own repellent opinions and should stfu anyway.

Like, "I used to support Palestinian rights but then some kids at Harvard said some shit," shut up, just total bullshit.